• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact AKM sama if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need your help!

    We need Patreon donations of at least 250 Euros per month for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive "Supporter", "Super Supporter", or "Ultra Supporter" badges that remove all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.

BlastX

He/Him
3,186
1,001
Oh I thought 10 or am I thinking of 8 gates

Or was gates a 100x multiplier
It's only 5x and all the others are not stated as far as I'm aware.

The x100 is actually that 8 gates Guy is x100 stronger than the 5 Kages, which is simultaneously immensely higher and immensely lower (he's x100 all 5 Kages combined...and yet that's immensely lower considering his performance against Juubidara).
 
8,640
9,121
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers. Also, Sasuke only fights Kinshiki with his base Sharingan + tomoe Rinnegan, meanwhile in the anime he matches fused Momo with his EMS + tomoe Rinnegan, so that form will scale to Fused Momo, and then a likely rating to Naruto based on statements that imply equality.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT < EMS + Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke ~ 156.4 ZT, likely 312.8 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
 
Last edited:
238
118
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
👍👍👍 looks good to me
 

LordTracer

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
11,596
8,663
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
Yeah, these changes seem fine to me.
 
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
Excellent!
 

LordGriffin1000

He/Him
VS Battles
Administrator
11,593
4,501
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
Still don't agree with some of those but hey, what can you do? I guess these are fine all in all though. Good God! I hope the thread I make never lasts 14 damn pages.
 
466
186
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
The changes seem ok but I'm still not convinced a bit regarding Sakura and Kurotsuchi's scaling. Nobody still has been able to scale Sakura's AP to an MS-controlled blade on motion.

And as for Kurotsuchi, scaling her to Kinshiki even with jutsu, still means you also have to scale base Boruto to Kinshiki as well since he has also consistently fought with god tiers and somehow has been able to damage them. or react to them. He even fought someone like Mu(ohnoki rip-off), and still performed better than Kurotsuchi who got negged by him. He also has lesser anti-feats ratio than Kurotsuchi.

I agree with the rest. Great job Arc.
 
Last edited:
395
165
I've already given up on things about Sakura, since no one outside of this site takes the scales here seriously, but a question, why isshiki is have this multiplier?
 
466
186
Regarding BSM Naruto and TCM Naruto, do you mean their profile would be like this;
Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B
Or did you mean we should pick either a Low 5-B+ or straight up 5-B?
 
395
165
Didn’t someone already link the chakra thread explaining why? Tldr we accept that if you increase your chakra by a certain amount your AP increases proportionally
Was this really accepted as a multiplier? So Naruto with Kurama's chakra has 100x multiplier?
 
466
186
Shin controls his blade arm with his MS
I'm not talking about Shin controlling the blade arm with his MS. I'm talking about Shin launching the blades using his MS at Sakura. Shin using the blades arm doesn't make Sakura scale to his MS-controlled blades. Shin only scales to 5B via throwing his weapon at Narusasu using his MS and actually piercing them with enough telekinetic force. He never did that with Sakura. All he did was replace his arm area with the blades to trade blows with Sakura.

If we want Sakura to scale to Shin's MS, she has to parry or trade blows with Shin's blade that is already on motion via his MS>
 
466
186
I'm not sure why he would? Like at what part was it stated that Naruto becomes x100 stronger with Kurama's Chakra? And Kido doesn't count
If I remembered correctly, Kakashi stated that he got a 3-5x chakra boost after KCM2 Naruto gave him a little chakra. He even relayed that info to Shikaku Nara.
 
395
165
I'm not sure why he would? Like at what part was it stated that Naruto becomes x100 stronger with Kurama's Chakra? And Kido doesn't count
If I understand correctly, if the character increases chakra by 10x, this is considered a 10x multiplier here on this site. And Kakashi said that without Yamato supplying Kurama's chakra, Naruto 100x more chakra that Kakashi
 
466
186
A slight chakra boost with no tailed cloak appearance gave kakashi a >3x chakra boost

EV0Y63RX0AIcoZq.jpg
 

BlastX

He/Him
3,186
1,001
Kurama multipliers are situational, you can't apply one to another situation, if Kakashi became 3x then you can't apply that to V1 Naruto unless he was stated to become as well.

About Kakashi 100x statement, it's kinda vague because we don't know which form it applies to, plus Naruto with Kurama's Chakra is far stronger than 100x during the war arc so we can't apply it.
 

GokuSparkle

He/Him
3,081
775
Dam, I have way fewer disagreements then I thought I would. Though I still have a decent amount.

I don't think Night Guy is just Low 5-B+, as it's not like he just damaged Madara, Night Guy legit blew a hole through the entire portion of Madara's body that Guy hit, and Madara stated that he almost died. Unless by Night Guy you mean 8th Gate Guy, in which case I agree. But then maybe saying Low 5-B+, far higher with Night Guy would be better, or maybe straight up 5-B as Night Guy MASSIVELY upscales from Juubidara's durability, and this is consistent with SPSM Naruto's Lava Rasenshuriken doing comparable if not lesser damage to Madara.

I believe SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke should be separated into different forms, as they clearly progressed throughout the fight as they adjusted to their new powers (similar to EMS Sasuke growing from MKCM Naruto level to either MKCM2 or BSM Naruto level). At first, they were pretty relative to 1 Eyed Juubidara, with him being able to block Naruto's strike, tag and damage him, and briefly withstand the force of Naruto and Sasuke's Rasengan and Chidori hitting him. As you said, they then displayed relativity to 2 Eyed Juubidara, but Kaguya instantly manhandled them with no difficulty, with Sasuke even noting that her chakra was on an entirely level from Madara's despite seeing 3 Eyed Juubidara. Then later, Naruto traded fists with her before being overpowered, which still showed her superiority, but not to such an extent as before. And while I'm not sure if this was more Black Zetsu or Kaguya, Naruto overpowered the grip that was stealing his and Sasuke's chakra. While this was somewhat offguard, he did damage Kaguya with just a normal punch. And with an amp from Kokuo, he just blatantly scales above Kaguya's physicals, and his Naruto Ultimate Barrage pressured her enough to make her flee into another dimension. Naruto and Sasuke also withstood the ultra heavy gravity dimension that affected Kaguya, potentially giving them somewhat comparable durability or at least lifting strength to her. Sasuke's Chidori made her change the dimension to flee it, implying it would've been able to damage her, and his Perfect Susanoo punching even at an awkward angle that wouldn't allow it to put its full strength in the swing sent Kaguya flying away, in addition to her feeling the need to evade his sword swing. Then Naruto's Rasenshuriken Barrage caused bruises and scratches all over her body, with the databook further implying it had a significant effect on her. All around, it's quite consistent for EoS Naruto and Sasuke to scale low end relative to Kaguya (although mostly Naruto since he had far more feats against her). So I'd propose either separating their Teen Six Paths versions into 3 keys or saying "Small Planet level+ upon first obtaining Six Paths powers, Planet level while fighting Dual Rinnegan Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara, even higher while fighting Kaguya."

For The Last, I'm sure you know about the statement of Toneri being the strongest enemy already and doubt its reliability, but the only real counterargument is Kaguya being a greater threat in Boruto, but she was a greater threat due to having greater power in comparison to the heroes at the time. While Kaguya was stronger than Naruto and Sasuke combined, Naruto alone was relative/stronger than Toneri in TL, making him a smaller threat relatively speaking. About Sasuke, you said he has no feats and statements, but TL novel actually stated he was Kakashi's strongest student, pitting him above TL Naruto.

Sasuke's not relative to Kinshiki. That's only 3T Sasuke. EMS Sasuke was able to tag and send Fused Momoshiki flying with a punch even after he noticed him and slashed apart his dragon attacks. He's also consistently stated and implied to be Naruto's equal.

Koji is definitely being wanked. For one thing, Jigen was actually stated to be at LESS than 10%, not even 10%. Despite this, Base Jigen matches him consistently in terms of physicals, only ever being at a disadvantage due to Koji's versatility and skill. Base Koji being above Delta is far too vague a scene to use concretely, when that hand sign has been used before for a sealing jutsu, which isn't really implicative of AP. And him scaling below 10% Base Jigen definitely shows he's not on SPSM Naruto's level, cause Naruto forced Jigen to go Karma V1 after kicking him away, implying he was at least relative to FP Base Jigen, if not superior. So SPSM Naruto and Delta should be more than 10x stronger than Base Koji. At best, it's SM Koji who's 5-B via scaling very minusculy to Isshiki. He's still below FP Naruto and Sasuke though, as it was stated they were the only ones who had a chance of stopping Isshiki, and that they have the greatest fighting power, which wouldn't be the case is Boruto Era Kakashi~/>Base Koji>Delta~SPSM Naruto. Although I will say that there's a caveat to this I'll mention when I get to Naruto and Sasuke again shortly.

I don't have any problems with Isshiki scaling over the ETSO, and I agree, but I disagree that no other characters would scale with him. While Naruto and Sasuke were clearly weaker, they were able to at least pose a mild threat to Isshiki, with Naruto's clones attacking eliciting an exclamation mark from him and making him dodge, Naruto suppressing him with his chakra arms, forcing him to use Daikokuten to stop Sasuke, and Sasuke stopping his rod stab. In addition, they have many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many durability feats against him. Considering Karma V2 Jigen had a better performance against them despite being far weaker than Isshiki, I'd like to propose that like in their teen states, Naruto and Sasuke got stronger since the Jigen fight, as that resolves this seeming contradiction, and would at least allow SM Koji to scale to/above Jigen fight SPSM Naruto (still disagree though, since Amado's statement should've been made with knowledge of Pre-Jigen fight Naruto and Sasuke's strength).

For Kawaki, I think this statement is good as supporting evidence, and I agree with his scaling in general.

The rest I mostly agree with. I'll just add that I think EoS Sakura should also somewhat scale to EoS Naruto and Sasuke, rather than just Boruto Era Sakura. She provided enough chakra to Obito to power his dimensional Kamui, something he stated a SPSM Naruto clone on its own wouldn't be able to, despite Naruto only having one clone out at this point (so it's not like you can argue the chakra was too vastly dispersed) and Naruto's clones being able to previously fight on par with 2 Eyed Juubidara's Limbo clones. Just in case you still don't believe the clone had any amount of chakra and is incredibly weak, it was able to dodge an attack from Kaguya before being hit offguard. I know this isn't a speed thread, just saying that if his speed is God Tier, his AP and thus chakra should be around that tier as well. This is consistent with, as I showed above, Sakura withstanding the heavy gravity dimension affecting 5-B characters. Then there's the infamous Kaguya punch, which, while not a blitz like some will meme about, is definitely a great AP feat, because even if you argue Kaguya was offguard, she was an exponentially stronger Kaguya than the one Naruto punched offguard, and Sakura still did more damage. So in terms of physical strength, EoS Sakura>EoS SPSM Naruto, which is consistent with the databook statement of her not falling behind Naruto and Sasuke. EoS Base Kakashi and DMS Obito also survived the gravity dimension and were even able to stand up and run around in it, so their dura probably also scales to God Tier. And SPC BZ Obito's low end relative to Pre-God Tree Juubidara for the reasons currently listed on Black Zetsu's profile and also because he had the strength to pull out some of the Bijuu chakra from Madara, which Madara stated was related to strength.

Despite some disagreements, great work all around!
Also uh...bump to this?
 

BlastX

He/Him
3,186
1,001
Also uh...bump to this?
I wanted to find the opportunity to say this, but those "Power increasing as they fight" should be saved for another thread to not clog this one, since according to you they happen in other instances and that fits more for a thread dedicated to it.
 
8,640
9,121
Night Guy should be higher

He can be “at least Small Planet, higher with dragon kick thingy”

Naruto and Sasuke should have multiple keys

No that’s needless clutter, just scaling them based off when they start mastering their new forms is fine. This would be like saying “Jigen is X while at less than 10%, Y at 100%”, these guys aren’t Deku, we can just denote their full power.


unfortunately I’ve dropped that for now

@GokuSparkle these are in response to you if you couldn’t tell
 

GokuSparkle

He/Him
3,081
775
I wanted to find the opportunity to say this, but those "Power increasing as they fight" should be saved for another thread to not clog this one, since according to you they happen in other instances and that fits more for a thread dedicated to it.
I mean I feel like this thread is pretty fitting for it, as it affects the scaling of several other God Tiers.
I think you misunderstood the OP, Koji is not getting his scaling from Jigen, Jigen is getting his scaling from dunking on Koji despite being sub 10%.
Still had issues with Base Koji>Delta~SPSM Naruto that I talked about in the paragraph. And I was referring to u saying K2 Jigen is 10x above Koji, as it's not like Base Koji was relative to 10% K2 Jigen, but 10% Base Jigen, and I pointed out the flaws with Base Jigen>>SPSM Naruto.
He can be “at least Small Planet, higher with dragon kick thingy”
That's cool
No that’s needless clutter, just scaling them based off when they start mastering their new forms is fine. This would be like saying “Jigen is X while at less than 10%, Y at 100%”, these guys aren’t Deku, we can just denote their full power.
I mean, KCM Naruto's strength is noted in both his unmastered and mastered states. "Large Mountain level (Stated that he was significantly stronger than he was during Pain’s Assault[19], which should put him above his Sage Mode form and likely his KN6 form. Stated to have control over the Nine-Tails’ power on multiple occasions[20][21][19], and stole a massive amount of Kurama’s chakra, leaving him in an emaciated state[22]), Large Mountain level+ after bonding with Kurama"
I guess we could scale Sasuke to Fused Momo with EMS via anime. He’d be 156.4 ZT with EMS. Or are you proposing he’s 312.8 ZT with EMS?
He should be equal to SPSM KCM Naruto, whatever value that Naruto is. It's not like only Naruto was drained in the Momoshiki fight, as dimensional teleportation takes a lot of chakra out of Sasuke too. After doing that and briefly fighting Kinshiki, he was even stumbling from fatigue.
 
8,640
9,121
Still had issues with Base Koji>Delta~SPSM Naruto that I talked about in the paragraph. And I was referring to u saying K2 Jigen is 10x above Koji, as it's not like Base Koji was relative to 10% K2 Jigen, but 10% Base Jigen, and I pointed out the flaws with Base Jigen>>SPSM Naruto.
I disagree, Koji is consistently applied to be at bare minimum comparable to Delta, and Delta can swap hands with SPSM KCM Naruto.


mean, KCM Naruto's strength is noted in both his unmastered and mastered states. "Large Mountain level (Stated that he was significantly stronger than he was during Pain’s Assault[19], which should put him above his Sage Mode form and likely his KN6 form. Stated to have control over the Nine-Tails’ power on multiple occasions[20][21][19], and stole a massive amount of Kurama’s chakra, leaving him in an emaciated state[22]), Large Mountain level+ after bonding with Kurama"
I think that’s massively redundant for a form that gets mastered much faster than initial KCM.


He should be equal to SPSM KCM Naruto, whatever value that Naruto is. It's not like only Naruto was drained in the Momoshiki fight, as dimensional teleportation takes a lot of chakra out of Sasuke too. After doing that and briefly fighting Kinshiki, he was even stumbling from fatigue.
I’ll settle with “156.4 ZT (matched Fused Momo, despite being drained of chakra from dimension hopping), likely 312.8 ZT (stated comparable to Naruto) with EMS + tomoe Rinnegan” since unlike Naruto we don’t have a quantified nerf for Sasuke.
 
Last edited:

BlastX

He/Him
3,186
1,001
"I mean I feel like this thread is pretty fitting for it, as it affects the scaling of several other God Tiers."

The thing is that this thread has enough things going on in it and according to you it happens in other instances too (Apparently according to you KCM2 got stronger as the aec progressed), I feel it would be better to be saved to another thread dedicated to it, the scaling can then be reordered after it (wouldn't be the first time) assuming it does go through.
 

GokuSparkle

He/Him
3,081
775
I disagree, Koji is consistently applied to be at bare minimum comparable to Delta, and Delta can swap hands with SPSM KCM Naruto.
"Base Koji being above Delta is far too vague a scene to use concretely, when that hand sign has been used before for a sealing jutsu, which isn't really implicative of AP." 'That hand sign' referring to the hand sign Koji prepared against Delta.
I think that’s massively redundant for a form that gets mastered much faster than initial KCM.
Eh, maybe. Either way, I think the Kaguya feats should be mentioned, and not just stuff pertaining to 2 Eyed Juubidara.
I’ll settle with “156.4 ZT (matched Fused Momo), likely 312.8 ZT (stated comparable to Naruto) with EMS + tomoe Rinnegan” since unlike Naruto we don’t have a quantified nerf for Sasuke.
It was implied that 2 dimensional travels takes basically all of his chakra, as doing that is what caused the Tomoes in his Rinnegan to disappear, so 1 travel taking about 50% makes sense.
Naruto Gaiden: The Seventh Hokage Chapter 8 - The Real Thing page 16

"I mean I feel like this thread is pretty fitting for it, as it affects the scaling of several other God Tiers."

The thing is that this thread has enough things going on in it and according to you it happens in other instances too (Apparently according to you KCM2 got stronger as the aec progressed), I feel it would be better to be saved to another thread dedicated to it, the scaling can then be reordered after it (wouldn't be the first time) assuming it does go through.
I kinda dropped the Teen Naruto/Sasuke stuff.
 
98
22
Sakura and Shin
I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS
Why are you using an argument made for Sakura from shippuden as support? she is not in the post as you said, and everything that Sakura from shippuden did against God's levels can be seen as discrepant, she is declared as KMC Naruto level with her byakugou:


Talk about not being able to face Juubito:


She gets so scared of Juudara that she forgets to breathe and she says he could have killed her at any time:


Madara throws the TSB and would have killed her if Obito didn't take her out of Kamui, and he would have done it with pure AP since he didn't use the erasure in TSB:


Madara casually pierce byakugou Sakura with his TSB once again he doesn't use the erase on it as the TSB was all bloody:


Is really impressed when seeing Madara's power:

 
Last edited:
8,640
9,121
It was implied that 2 dimensional travels takes basically all of his chakra, as doing that is what caused the Tomoes in his Rinnegan to disappear, so 1 travel taking about 50% makes sense.
I don’t disagree inherently with the sentiment, I just don’t find it objective, hence the likely.

Base Koji being above Delta is far too vague a scene to use concretely, when that hand sign has been used before for a sealing jutsu, which isn't really implicative of AP." 'That hand sign' referring to the hand sign Koji prepared against Delta.
Actually we don’t know which jutsu he was going to use, we just know it wasn’t sage mode. Furthermore, Koji was created to take down Jigen, it makes sense for him to be this strong.


Why are you using an argument made for Sakura from shippuden as support?
I’m not… I’m using the databook scan for adult Sakura… no one is talking about teen Sakura. I explicitly mentioned feats of ADULT Sakura.
 

GokuSparkle

He/Him
3,081
775
I don’t disagree inherently with the sentiment, I just don’t find it objective, hence the likely.
The statements saying Naruto and Sasuke are equal are objective. And the feats don't contradict them, as they just need to be reinterpreted.
Actually we don’t know which jutsu he was going to use, we just know it wasn’t sage mode. Furthermore, Koji was created to take down Jigen, it makes sense for him to be this strong.
Idk, seems pretty clear to me.
main-qimg-520293da14c67908c58709d6f41d5418

Even if you argue that there are multiple jutsu with this hand seal, all I'm saying is that the scene isn't proof of anything due to the factor of him likely meaning to use hax to subdue Delta. And considering the multiple scaling inconsistencies it would cause, I don't see why one statement takes precedence over things like Amado saying only Naruto and Sasuke can defeat Isshiki, SPSM KCM Naruto being heavily implied to be above Base Jigen (with the Juubi's chakra mind you) and Naruto/Sasuke>Kakashi~/>Kashin Koji, which are all more straightforward than the Delta scene. At best, I could see "At least Small Planet level+, possibly Planet level" for Base Koji and "At least Planet level" for Sage Mode Koji.

He was created to take down Jigen, but he needed to wait for Jigen to be extremely weakened to do so. And it could be SM Koji who was intended to take down Jigen anyways.
 
8,640
9,121
The statements saying Naruto and Sasuke are equal are objective. And the feats don't contradict them, as they just need to be reinterpreted.
Part of Sasuke’s strength is his hax, there’s a point made of that throughout the entire series. So again I disagree that the statements inherently must mean EMS Sasuke ~ SPSM KCM Naruto, hence the likely.


I don't see why one statement takes precedence over things like Amado saying only Naruto and Sasuke can defeat Isshiki
Naruto and Sasuke have a synergy from teamwork that elevates them beyond a simple addition of stats, you provided the scan proving such. Naruto time and time again shows us that the strength in numbers from relying on others > strength found in the individual. It doesn’t birth any inherent contradiction.
 
13
1
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers. Also, Sasuke only fights Kinshiki with his base Sharingan + tomoe Rinnegan, meanwhile in the anime he matches fused Momo with his EMS + tomoe Rinnegan, so that form will scale to Fused Momo, and then a likely rating to Naruto based on statements that imply equality.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT < EMS + Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke ~ 156.4 ZT, likely 312.8 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakuro"
this one i think is better and solve the controversial thing.
 
Last edited:

Shadowbokunohero

VS Battles
Content Moderator
12,557
4,982
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers. Also, Sasuke only fights Kinshiki with his base Sharingan + tomoe Rinnegan, meanwhile in the anime he matches fused Momo with his EMS + tomoe Rinnegan, so that form will scale to Fused Momo, and then a likely rating to Naruto based on statements that imply equality.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT < EMS + Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke ~ 156.4 ZT, likely 312.8 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
These changes seem good
 

Shadowbokunohero

VS Battles
Content Moderator
12,557
4,982
Part of Sasuke’s strength is his hax, there’s a point made of that throughout the entire series. So again I disagree that the statements inherently must mean EMS Sasuke ~ SPSM KCM Naruto, hence the likely.
They likely also just mean general reletivity in the sense that they can fight along side one another or against one another, you dont have to be 1:1 in power as well, Hokage Naruto has objectively better feats than Homeless Sasuke consistently against stronger people anyway.
 
2
2
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers. Also, Sasuke only fights Kinshiki with his base Sharingan + tomoe Rinnegan, meanwhile in the anime he matches fused Momo with his EMS + tomoe Rinnegan, so that form will scale to Fused Momo, and then a likely rating to Naruto based on statements that imply equality.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT < EMS + Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke ~ 156.4 ZT, likely 312.8 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Skala Kakashi kemungkinan sebanding dengan basis Koji, tetapi mengingat ambiguitas pertarungan, saya baik-baik saja dengan menjatuhkan Kakashi atau mungkin menskalakannya ke Koji. Juga oleh Hokage Kakashi yang saya maksud adalah era Boruto Kakashi lol
entah tidak atau mungkin 312,8 ZT untuk Kakashi

Urashiki
Secara pribadi, saya menemukan "dia tidak konsisten" untuk menjadi polisi yang lengkap dan total ketika tmk seri keluar dari jalan mereka untuk menjelaskan bagaimana dia diracuni dan dinerf sepanjang busur. Namun, saya tidak peduli sama sekali untuk Urashiki dan karena itu saya menjatuhkan dia kecuali seseorang ingin menjatuhkan imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki dan membuktikan pertunjukan nerfnya tidak anti prestasi.

Jigen/Isshiki
Penskalaannya tetap sama, mencelupkan Naruto dan Sasuke, dan melawan Koji saat sangat nerf.
setidaknya 156,4 ZT di pangkalan, setidaknya 312,8 ZT dengan Karma, 3,128 YT dengan formulir Otsutsuki untuk Jigen
setidaknya 3.128 YT untuk Isshiki

Cyborg, Boruto, dan Kawaki
Penskalaan mereka semua tetap sama dengan OP, tidak terlalu banyak untuk diulang, karena 99,999999% dari diskusi adalah "raaaa Shin anSSakuraub

Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers. Also, Sasuke only fights Kinshiki with his base Sharingan + tomoe Rinnegan, meanwhile in the anime he matches fused Momo with his EMS + tomoe Rinnegan, so that form will scale to Fused Momo, and then a likely rating to Naruto based on statements that imply equality.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT < EMS + Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke ~ 156.4 ZT, likely 312.8 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
Scalingnya tetap sama, 50% base mengungguli semua Kage vs Fused Momo lainnya dalam hal fisik, 50% SPSM KCM hanya melakukan dunk pada Fused Momo, dan kemudian Mode Baryon menyerang Isshiki. Menjatuhkan barang-barang tingkat 4 yang mungkin untuk saat ini, mungkin kembali ke sana setelah kami memikirkan yang lainnya. Juga, Naruto tanpa Kurama hanyalah dasar Naruto untuk semua maksud dan tujuan.
156.4 ZT di pangkalan, lebih tinggi dengan Mode Sage, 312.8 ZT dengan SPSM KCM, setidaknya 3.218 YT dengan Mode Baryon untuk Naruto

Shikamaru
Dia menahan Otsutsuki dan dia mampu menghancurkan kepala Kage lainnya dan Naruto membutuhkan SPSM KCM untuk keluar darinya. Bayangan Shikamaru secara terang-terangan menskalakan orang-orang seperti Darui melalui pernyataan-pernyataan itu.
78.2 ZT dengan Bayangan

Hokashi
Skala Kakashi kemungkinan sebanding dengan basis Koji, tetapi mengingat ambiguitas pertarungan, saya baik-baik saja dengan menjatuhkan Kakashi atau mungkin menskalakannya ke Koji. Juga oleh Hokage Kakashi yang saya maksud adalah era Boruto Kakashi lol
entah tidak atau mungkin 312,8 ZT untuk Kakashi

Urashiki
Secara pribadi, saya menemukan "dia tidak konsisten" untuk menjadi polisi yang lengkap dan total ketika tmk seri keluar dari jalan mereka untuk menjelaskan bagaimana dia diracuni dan dinerf sepanjang busur. Namun, saya tidak peduli sama sekali untuk Urashiki dan karena itu saya menjatuhkan dia kecuali seseorang ingin menjatuhkan imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki dan membuktikan pertunjukan nerfnya tidak anti prestasi.

Jigen/Isshiki
Penskalaannya tetap sama, mencelupkan Naruto dan Sasuke, dan melawan Koji saat sangat nerf.
setidaknya 156,4 ZT di pangkalan, setidaknya 312,8 ZT dengan Karma, 3,128 YT dengan formulir Otsutsuki untuk Jigen
setidaknya 3.128 YT untuk Isshiki

Cyborg, Boruto, dan Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
there seems to be no problem, I agree
 
395
165
I remembered something, Hinata should also scale for someone tier 5, she received the chakra of Hamura, and was also able to help destroy the Tenseigan, was able to fill Naruto's chakra instantly, was able to face Toneri's strongest puppet, who was able to face the base Naruto.
 
395
165
She also faced Momoshiki and Kinshiki, even though it was off-screen, she stayed alive, and they wouldn't be kind enough to let her live, it's more likely they attacked to kill.
 
466
186
I remembered something, Hinata should also scale for someone tier 5, she received the chakra of Hamura, and was also able to help destroy the Tenseigan, was able to fill Naruto's chakra instantly, was able to face Toneri's strongest puppet, who was able to face the base Naruto.
I'm already making a CRT for The last Base Naruto and HC Hinata. Arc told me to not release it yet until we finish this CRT. Don't worry about it.
 
395
165
We who were opposing things about Sakura and Kage are apparently a minority here and majority seem to agree, this CRT is already over, what are we waiting for changes be apply?



By the way, Arc, what will your next CRT be?? Will it be about speed?
 
526
117
By the way, Arc, what will your next CRT be?? Will it be about speed?
arc7 prefers to keep its crt open for 1 week no matter what. There will also be speed revisions, but I don't think it will be as heartwarming as this crt (speed revisions to come after bijuu thread)
 

UchihaSlayer96

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
8,797
8,719
what will happen exactly i thought ap part was over after bijuu thread
Kirin additions, plus some changes for the mid tiers.
There's also going to be a revision for the Top tiers, but I'll make it in my own time, and it can run parallel with the speed stuff because it's not going to affect that many characters.
 
395
165
arc7 prefers to keep its crt open for 1 week no matter what. There will also be speed revisions, but I don't think it will be as heartwarming as this crt (speed revisions to come after bijuu thread)
Right.

No review will be as exciting as this one, after what has been done here, no one will be impressed if Iruka scale for the bijuus.
 
307
127
this is just blatantly false, why she should even care about Momoshiki, even assuming he's stronger, she stopped supplying the whole clan, to her even if she beat up Momoshiki somehow, that doesn't solve the problem at all, the clan still sees her as a traitor, that's what the narrative implies and the logical conclusion to the events, however, I'm not pushing for anything here, cause my approaches is to conclude that Kaguya > Momoshiki, and if I will go from this claim, I will need to use other evidence to back up the notion, which I have a shit ton of them, but this will just turn the thread to Naruto Shippuden vs Boruto power scale and will drive from the original topic.
You're not even watching the same show as me at this point smh because that's who she named in the scroll 🤨, again irrelevant the whole set up of this arc is "this enemy is gonna appear soon that's stronger than Kaguya that's why she was making an army" < Sasuke then sees Momo and Kin and outright confirms these two were who Kaguya was preparing the army for and confirms this to Naruto on screen your scan does nothing to contradict these statements or support your argument in the slightest, again the clan narrative isn't brought up at all as a factor to Sasuke's statements your own scan doesn't even remotely imply what you think it does either its just a made up narrative ppl try to push, its always these specific 2 Otsutsuki, your approach is wrong and blatantly in oppositions to what's actually present in several mediums of Boruto, the games outright say hes stronger, the novel written by Kodachi outright says hes stronger and the anime all but has it in neon writing and ppl are still being blatantly dishonest about it

"I will need to use other evidence to back up the notion, which I have a shit ton of them"
As in bad power scaling to dodge statements that contradict that premise?
 
53
40
Aight guys, finally getting to my proposed changes/compromises/etc.

Hag and Ham
These guys stay the same nothing is wrong with them.
78.2 ZT for them both

Madara
I'm still convinced he should be where I initially proposed him to be. The reasoning here very much still holds:

Madara

The imgur explains the reasoning behind my premise, but to put it simply, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara (the strongest we see him get) scales to Hagoromo through this scaling chain:

One Rinnegan Juubidara = close to Hagoromo < Shinju-Absorbed Juubidara < Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ~ Hagoromo = 5-B

Via pure power scaling, specifically the bolded portion, it should be abundantly clear that Juubidara at his peak should be scaling relative to Hagoromo. Doubly so when you consider Juubidara got beyond a “one shot” level amp from single Rinnegan to two Rinnegan (went from being obliterated by SPSM Naruto’s Rasenshuriken with one eye to being able to fight both SPSM KCM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke simultaneously). Juubidara being close to Hagoromo’s power and then receiving a beyond “one shot” level amp should be enough evidence alone to scale peak Juubidara to Hagoromo.

Furthermore, the narrative around Juubidara’s ever increasing power is that he wants to obtain a power similar to that of Kaguya. We see this brought to the forefront as Juubidara gets betrayed and defeated by his own hubris (manifested in the form of Madara believing Black Zetsu is his will alone and that he cannot be used like he used Obito). Then Naruto flashes back to Hagoromo claiming Madara is nearing his own power, to Hagoromo claiming that Madara wants to get Kaguya’s power but that Kaguya’s power gives rise to self-destruction through hubris. This is what literally happens, Madara obtains Hagoromo’s power and when he tries to go further and obtain Kaguya’s power, he is undone by the rise of his own hubris. The narrative of Madara’s rise to power is that he climbs to the Sage of Six Paths level only to be overwhelmed and consumed in pursuit of Kaguya’s power.

But wait, there’s more! The databooks themselves directly state that when Juubidara got both eyes he unleashed the true power of the Six Paths, which heavily implies and all but directly confirms that Dual Rinnegan Juubidara reached Hagoromo’s power level. Six Paths refers to Hagoromo inherently, as Hagoromo is the Sage of Six Paths, and the namesake of those famous powers as known by the ninja world. Thus, awakening the true power of the Six Paths would inherently refer to unleashing the actual power of Hagoromo. Again this adds just further layers of consistency to Madara being this strong.

Additionally, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara casually spreads the God Tree roots around the world with his own energy. This feat is calculated to Small Planetary as a lowball. This feat serves as a solid supporting feat to the scaling I’m proposing for Madara. The preponderance of evidence for Madara scaling to Hagoromo is ever-so-increasing.

Finally, to touch upon Juubidara with a single Rinnegan. Hagaromo states he's getting close to himself in power, if Madara is nearing Hagaromo in power that would imply he's closer to Hagoromo in power than he is further from Hagoromo in power. This would mean One Rinnegan Juubidara should be over half way to Hagoromo's power. As consequence of this Night Guy would scale as well, since he was breaking Madara's body.

To conclude everything I’ve brought up, via powerscaling, narrative intent, and statements, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara is put on the same level of power as Hagoromo. One Rinnegan Juubidara scales above a power that rivals Hagoromo and is getting close to Hagoromo himself, and upon receiving multiple huge amps awakens to Dual Rinnegan Juubidara, unleashing power on par with Hagoromo, until eventually in attempts of pursuing a power beyond Hagoromo he falls to his own hubris. Therefore, Dual Rinnegan Juubidara should scale to Hagoromo. As far as quantifying weaker forms of Juubidara, I’m neutral on that and am open to suggestions.
Particularly the bolded portions are what has me sold on Juubidara's scaling. With 1 Rinnegan he's implied to be closer to Hag in power than he is far from Hag in power (implying a half relativity), and then he unleashes the true power of the Six Paths (Hag) with both eyes. It's extremely consistent with the narrative and multitude of statements. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke cannot serve as limiters as they didn't just receive half of Ghost Hag's chakra but they received new transformations and eyes as well. The halves of Hag's chakra meshed with Naruto and Sasuke's own chakra elevating to new heights.
39.1 ZT for 1 Rinnegan, 78.2 ZT for 2 Rinnegan

Guy
He gives 1 eyed Madara the hands with the 8 gates, his proposed scaling is the same.
39.1 ZT for Night Guy

Kaguya
Her scaling isn't controversial, it's simple, and it remains the same.
78.2 ZT for her

Naruto and Sasuke
I touched on them a little bit in Madara's section, but they just scale to Madara. Again, them receiving Hag's power on top of their own power and evolving into new forms does not limit them to just Hag's power.
78.2 ZT for them

Toneri
Personally I think "At least Low 5-B+, possibly 5-B" for his TCM for the same reasons I mentioned in the OP is best for him.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Naruto
the Last
He just scales to TCM Toneri with his BSM, nothing complicated.
39.1 ZT, possibly 78.2 ZT

Sasuke the Last

Sasuke with Six Paths powers should scale above BSM Naruto, and I think it's stated he's Kakashi's best pupil or sumn like that during this era (it's deep in this thread). Furthermore, he should simply scale at least to his teen self as he has had more time to acclimate to his powers and he hasn't been stagnate in his worldly travels.
78.2 ZT for Sussy

Sasuke the Burrito
This is where a lot of the change comes from and where I think a lot of the dissenters will be pacified. I'm going to propose that Adult Sasuke simply scales to/above his teenage self, and keep his scaling to Kinshiki, rather than deal with the mental battles of scaling him to Fused Momo. Him and Kinshiki are able to consistently match each other anyway, and the manga portrays Fused Momo as slightly stronger than Sasuke. I think this will solve a lot of the "issues" he brings downscaling other characters to him. I then think no Rinnegan Sasuke should just downscale to baseline, as he's still a threat to some of the Boruto God Tiers. Also, Sasuke only fights Kinshiki with his base Sharingan + tomoe Rinnegan, meanwhile in the anime he matches fused Momo with his EMS + tomoe Rinnegan, so that form will scale to Fused Momo, and then a likely rating to Naruto based on statements that imply equality.
59.44 ZT ~ no Rinnegan Sasuke < no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke < Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke >= 78.2 ZT < EMS + Rinnegan with tomoe Sasuke ~ 156.4 ZT, likely 312.8 ZT

Sakura and Shin

I urge you to read this post as it words it better than I ever could: https://vsbattles.com/threads/award...vements-of-success.140047/page-8#post-4960978
shoutout to @Gokukid2005
But following his proposals, Sakura would scale above the no tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke levels of power (considering chapter 9 implies she was clashing with Shin while he was using his MS to control a bladed arm) and the databooks imply Sakura reached similar levels as Naruto and Sasuke. Meanwhile Shin could pierce Naruto's KCM cloak with his MS, something that not even Teen Sasuke could do with a Chidori (albeit Naruto wasn't exactly paying attention), so his MS should be scaling around teen Sasuke. For the sake of safe lowballs, I'll simply scale them above no Rinnegan Sasuke.
59.44 ZT for Adult Sakura and Shin's MS

Momo and Kin
Their scaling stays the same, more concretely rooted in Kinshiki's fight with Sasuke.
78.2 ZT for base Momo and Kin, 156.4 ZT for Fused Momo

The Kage
Tsuchikage burnt Kinshiki with her jutsu so her jutsu scales, and she debatably harmed him with a punch, although the consistency of that is questionable. Mizuke stabbed Kinshiki with his jutsu so his jutsu scales, he also likely downscales from Kinshiki's physicals. Raikage could match weapon clashes with Momo so he scales. Gaara blocked Fused Momo's punch with his sand, but has no feats for his physicals.
possibly 78.2 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Kurotsuchi
likely 59.44 ZT, 78.2 ZT with Jutsu for Chojuro
78.2 ZT for Darui
156.4 ZT with Sand for Gaara

Naruto the Burrito
His scaling is staying the same, 50% base outscales all the other Kage vs Fused Momo in terms of physicals, 50% SPSM KCM just dunks on Fused Momo, and then Baryon Mode coccslaps Isshiki. Dropping the possibly tier 4 stuff for now, might return to it once we figure everything else out. Also, Naruto without Kurama is just base Naruto for all intents and purposes.
156.4 ZT in base, higher with Sage Mode, 312.8 ZT with SPSM KCM, at least 3.218 YT with Baryon Mode for Naruto

Shikamaru
He restrains Otsutsuki and he is capable of crushing the heads of the other Kage and Naruto needed SPSM KCM to break out of it. Shikamaru's shadows blatantly scale to the likes of Darui via those statements.
78.2 ZT with Shadows

Hokashi
Kakashi likely scales comparable to base Koji, but considering the ambiguity of the fight, I'm fine with either dropping Kakashi or just possibly scaling him to Koji. Also by Hokage Kakashi I mean Boruto era Kakashi lol
either no or possibly 312.8 ZT for Kakashi

Urashiki
Personally, I find the "he's inconsistent" to be a complete and utter cop out when tmk the series goes out of their way to explain how he gets poisoned and nerfed throughout the arc. However, I do not care at all for Urashiki and as such am dropping him unless someone wants to drop an imgur scan dump scaling Urashiki and proving his nerfed showings aren't anti feats.

Jigen/Isshiki
His scaling stays the same, dunking on Naruto and Sasuke, and contesting Koji while extremely nerfed.
at least 156.4 ZT in base, at least 312.8 ZT with Karma, 3.128 YT with Otsutsuki form for Jigen
at least 3.128 YT for Isshiki

Cyborgs, Boruto, and Kawaki
Their scaling is all remaining the same as the OP, not really much to rehash, since 99.99999% of discussion has been "raaaa Shin and Sakura"
Looks good agreed
 

GokuSparkle

He/Him
3,081
775
Part of Sasuke’s strength is his hax, there’s a point made of that throughout the entire series. So again I disagree that the statements inherently must mean EMS Sasuke ~ SPSM KCM Naruto, hence the likely.
If we're talking AP showings, he was able to harm Jigen who's stronger than Naruto.
Boruto Chapter 37 Page 20
Boruto Chapter 37 Page 21
Boruto Chapter 37 Page 35
Boruto Chapter 37 Page 39

And it was even implied he could slice K2 Jigen's head off, who's WAY stronger than Naruto.
Boruto Chapter 38 Page 18
Boruto Chapter 38 Page 19

The anime further showed their relative AP.

And he was probably able to harm even Isshiki.
Boruto Chapter 50 Page 7
Boruto Chapter 50 Page 27
Boruto Chapter 50 Page 28

How would Likely 312.8 ZT even work when they're both Planet level? At least Planet level, likely higher? It just seems really unnecessary when Adult Naruto~Adult Sasuke is one of the clearest scalings in the Narutoverse with some of the most evidence. It's not "objective," but the same is true of plenty of other characters who have a solid rating without the likely (for example, Jiraiya scales to Orochimaru, when as far as we know, that could be because of his hax and speed rather than AP, considering he has stuff like the toad mouth trap and the dimension sealing trap and sealing jutsu, etc.).
Naruto and Sasuke have a synergy from teamwork that elevates them beyond a simple addition of stats, you provided the scan proving such. Naruto time and time again shows us that the strength in numbers from relying on others > strength found in the individual. It doesn’t birth any inherent contradiction.
Technically, VSBW doesn't accept the novelization of Boruto the Movie as canon, that was just supplementary evidence that Naruto and Sasuke are portrayed as equal across all medias. The strength in numbers thing doesn't literally mean that a teamup is an exponential boost, just that teaming up with someone can give you greater strength than you can accomplish on your own. And even besides that, there's still the fact that 100% Juubi Jigen needed to use the Karma against Naruto when 10% Base Jigen matched Koji. That's pretty much as blatant as you can get (and still the Kakashi stuff I've brought up several times). I can accept SM Koji being above Delta since he was Delta's superior on the mission, but Base Koji is basically impossible to resolve with other showings. Koji even briefly questioned if Naruto could've beaten Jigen on his own before denying the possibility, while he knew full well he couldn't beat Jigen even with SM, letalone in base where he's far weaker. He also stated that he might be able to take down Jigen when he has almost no chakra, again despite having SM.
Boruto Chapter 39 Page 15

By the way, why a likely for Sasuke when there's far more evidence in his support while Base Koji is straight up 5-B? Just like with Sasuke, a big part of Koji's style is his hax, so even if he scales over Delta (which he doesn't), that could be cause of hax. If anything, Sasuke and Koji's ratings should be switched around.
I mean yeah, it does look like he was planning on sealing her, although it doesn't make sense for him to use it on her since she can absorb the sealing technique with her eye.

Since his technique uses ninjutsu, it's not something that would even reliably seal Delta.
He could've been planning to seal her, then before she realized what was happening and tried to absorb it, he'd attack her vulnerable body. Again, we don't know. Just like offscreen fights aren't used for scaling on VSBW, I don't think a vague implication of the outcome of a fight that didn't happen is enough for concrete scaling, at least not when stronger evidence contradicts it.
 
Top