Asta vs Noelle

[LordWhis]

Elf arc Black asta (no black divider) vs Low 6B Noelle.

Asta: 1 (Milly Rocking Bandit)

Noelle:

Incon: 2 (MindControl116, Epsilon R)

Who wins this ?

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

What is thus?

 

[MindControl116]

Yikes, I may have to go reread the entirety of the elves' invasion arc and keep track of everything just for the sake of calculation and power scaling, but based from what I know right off the top of my head, as well as from what we see on the wiki, I would argue this is inconclusive. I can see Asta winning on the assumption that the Demon-Destroyer Sword can nullify Noelle/s Valkyrie dress, but I do not know if this is valid for the sake of the conditions of the match, and even if it is valid, there is no evidence to warrant this assumption. Otherwise, their stats seem to be awfully similar, and it would amount to Asta endlessly chasing Noelle, since his movement would be unvoluntarily homing in on to her, and she has true flight, so she can keep moving for as long as her mana lasts, which is stupidly long in this form, enough to maybe outlast Asta's stamina, but again, it's hard to quantify that. That's a very vague reason for why I would say this is INCON.

I might change my vote later on once I do read the chapters and do the scaling more in depth, but that'll take a while and I might just forget to do it in the first place.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Incon Fra

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Uhm... passive anti-magic, Precog, and accelerated development?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Actually, Noelle could win this one.

Asta just need to touch Noelle once and he wins, however, he doesn't have the range to negate Noelle, not with his passive Anti Magic, therefore, he needs to go cqc against her. Noelle may aswell be slightly faster and more agile than Asta in the air. She has accelerated development too btw. Though, Asta can reverse magic effects so I guess he could reverse the damages he takes from he magic

Still voting inconclusive

 

[MindControl116]

Asta just need to touch Noelle once and he wins, however, he doesn't have the range to negate Noelle, not with his passive Anti Magic, therefore, he needs to go cqc against her.

See, I was thinking the same thing. However, Asta has demonstrated feats of being able to negate magic without actually touching a person, and at a distance. These are not outliers either, from what it seems, since they have all been different types of non-localized status magic. For example, in the elves' invasion arc, the elf-possessed Gauche and Marie, whose elven names I forgot, they managed to completely paralyze Asta using a combination of Mirror Magic and Eye Magic. However, he was able to undo it because the Demon-Destroyer Sword began to emit anti-magic aura around him. which enveloped him and his comrades and negated their status of being paralyzed. At first, this looked like an asspull, but the first feat ever performed with this sword, which was when they were healing Father at the orphanage in Hage Village, was also via the sword emitting anti-magic aura. There are two other demonstrations of this, as well. When Asta was in the Magic Congress' court, he once again used the sword and had it emit aura to negate the Scale Magic, which is an AOE magic that affected everyone targeted in the room. And finally, just in the most recent chapter of the source material, Asta managed to do this to undo the gravitational magic that was affecting the entire battlefield, although he did this in his brand new demon form, and it looks like he was using the Demon-Slayer Sword instead. Regardless, there are certain types of magic that Asta can nullify by simply having his sword emit anti-magic aura and envelop the victims of it, and he can do it at a distance. If you want scans of the specific feats, I can provide them, just let me know.

However, none of this warrants the assumption that Asta can nullify Valkyrie Dress by doing the same thing, because the exact nature of Valkyrie Dress hasn't been explained in full-depth. it's unclear if it falls under the same type of category as Reinforcement Magic, and it's unclear if it can be considered a status-altering magic in the same way that Scale Magic is. Hence what I wrote in my previous comment. Also, I'm sorry that my comment is a little long, but I wanted to mention every feat just to make sure.

Noelle may aswell be slightly faster and more agile than Asta in the air.

Most likely, yes, but I don't want to make this assertion unless I can find specific scans and make specific calculations to prove it. I don't want to make assumptions that can be proven.

She has accelerated development too btw.

True, but this happens whenever it involves having to protect her friends and family, and if in the middle of a crisis. We have not seen it happen otherwise. In this case, she is fighting her comrade, and on top of that, someone she has a crush on. I'm not saying she wouldn't be trying her hardest to go for the win, but would it be in character for her to learn a new spell to fight against Asta? I don't think so. At least, I don't think we should assume it until we get at least 1 feat in which she learns a new spell while having a duel against one of her comrades or family.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, by the way, I'm just trying to further the discussion to see where this goes.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Bump

 

[MindControl116]

Uhm... passive anti-magic, Precog, and accelerated development?

So, I assume this is a vote for Asta? OP counted it as a vote, but I just want to make sure you're not being misinterpreted.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Bump

 

[ShiverPointGaming_101]

Bump I vote noelle

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Bump I vote noelle

Wow

 

[ShiverPointGaming_101]

?

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

I'm suprised

 

[MindControl116]

I'm suprised

Why are you surprised? It already was stated by Epsilon that Noelle could win this.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

It all depends on who's power up runs out first.

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

Asta probably has the better showings against the elves and against the elves and against Zagreb although whether it's enough to say he's considerably enough Noelle idk. You could probably say Noelle holds the advantage in speed which would make it quite difficult for Asta in a close quarters battle even with ki sensing and his black form. I would lean towards Asta given that he should be able to negate Valkyrie Dress but given that there's not lots splitting the two it's probably easier to say inconclusive.

 

[Ionliosite]

Asta for actually being Low 6-B, Noelle got downgraded with the Licht thread

 

[Epsilon_R]

Noelle still has better range and stamina to make the match inconclusive imo

 

[MindControl116]

Asta probably has the better showings against the elves and against the elves and against Zagreb although whether it's enough to say he's considerably enough Noelle idk. You could probably say Noelle holds the advantage in speed which would make it quite difficult for Asta in a close quarters battle even with ki sensing and his black form. I would lean towards Asta given that he should be able to negate Valkyrie Dress but given that there's not lots splitting the two it's probably easier to say inconclusive.

We don't know that he should be able to negate it. While it does make sense from a hypothetical standpoint, we know there are types of magic affecting the body of the user that he has not been able to negate in the past, so without feats of equivalent scale, it's hard to simply say "Yes, he can." So it can't be considered a decisive factor.

 

[ShiverPointGaming_101]

Bump

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

Asta probably has the better showings against the elves and against the elves and against Zagreb although whether it's enough to say he's considerably enough Noelle idk. You could probably say Noelle holds the advantage in speed which would make it quite difficult for Asta in a close quarters battle even with ki sensing and his black form. I would lean towards Asta given that he should be able to negate Valkyrie Dress but given that there's not lots splitting the two it's probably easier to say inconclusive.

We don't know that he should be able to negate it. While it does make sense from a hypothetical standpoint, we know there are types of magic affecting the body of the user that he has not been able to negate in the past, so without feats of equivalent scale, it's hard to simply say "Yes, he can." So it can't be considered a decisive factor.

Can you give me an example of when he has not been capable of negating magic affecting the body?

 

[MindControl116]

Reinforcement magic, in the battle against Vetto.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Reinforcement magic, in the battle against Vetto.

He did Vetto himself said so

 

[MindControl116]

That scan doesn't show anything. All it shows is Asta hitting Vetto once.

 

[Epsilon_R]

You see Asta dispelling his reinforcement magic, which is pretty easy to notice. But if you still can't notice it, I sent another one

 

[MindControl116]

It's not even really dispelling, its' just absorbing the magic. The magic itself is still active, it's just not as effective. All this tells me is that if Asta stabs Noelle with the Demon-Dweller Sword, which isn't a very likely scenario to start with, then her spell wouldn't become inactive, her magic would just get absorbed, so she would be weakened. Although, if she were to get stabbed, she just lose, because the sword is probably decently heavy (lighter than the Demon-Slayer, but still).

Thinking about it further, it may or may not be possible for the Demon-Destroyer to nullify it, but given the uncertainty, I can't really call that a winning condition. I don't accept arguments that are based on very uncertain assumptions.

 

[Epsilon_R]

When Vetto uses Reinforcement Magic, he has animalistic hands. When Asta stabbed him, he lost them, therefore he dispelled it. Simple.

Anyway, Valkyrie Dress works like Thunder Armor, which Asta was able to negate.

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

It's not even really dispelling, its' just absorbing the magic. The magic itself is still active, it's just not as effective. All this tells me is that if Asta stabs Noelle with the Demon-Dweller Sword, which isn't a very likely scenario to start with, then her spell wouldn't become inactive, her magic would just get absorbed, so she would be weakened. Although, if she were to get stabbed, she just lose, because the sword is probably decently heavy (lighter than the Demon-Slayer, but still).
Thinking about it further, it may or may not be possible for the Demon-Destroyer to nullify it, but given the uncertainty, I can't really call that a winning condition. I don't accept arguments that are based on very uncertain assumptions.

Epsilon is right, Vetto said it himself. "Is it weakening the magic that bolsters my physical ability".

 

[ShiverPointGaming_101]

Bump

 

[MindControl116]

Weakening =/= dispelling. I don't know why I'm constantly being forced to repeat myself on something so basic as that. I don't remember this wiki ever allowing for such oversimplifications as equating weakening a spell with dispelling it. Honestly, that's dishonest and infuriating on your part, and I don't think anyone should tolerate it.

And the animalistic hands disappearing doesn't actually prove the spell was dispelled. That's just speculation not really supported by canon.

 

[Epsilon_R]

>Vetto manifest his Reinforcement Magic as animalistic hands

>Asta nullifies magic

>Reinforcement Magic is magic

>Asta makes those hands disappear meaning he nullified Reinforcement Magic.

>Says "that doesn't prove anything"

You're the one being dishonest, really.

 

[MindControl116]

No, I'm not. In the first place, the claim that Reinforcement Magic manifests itself exclusively as animalistic hands is false. That's why I said it doesn't prove anything. Distorting my words isn't a valid argument, Epsilon. Not the first time you've done this to me, either. And you're the one ignoring the fact that Vetto specifically used the word "weakening."

And I don't understand how "weakening = dispelling" is not dishonest. Looks like this wiki has loosened on its reinforcement of its own rules and standards by quite a lot in the last few months. Hmph.

Anyway, I already gave my vote. So, I'm unsubscribing from the thread to avoid notification explosions. And besides, it's no longer an interesting discussion. Farewell.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Not only it was never stated Asta couldn't nullify Reinforcement Magic in the first place, but he still did it regardless. You keep saying Asta can't nullify Reinforcement Magic, but you never actually gave the scan where it was stated so. I won't waste my time arguing that unless it was actually stated he couldn't nullify it.

Also, I don't think you're in a good position to say I distorted your words when 1, you did this to me in another thread, and 2, I didn't actually distorted your words (if so please quote where I did such a thing).

It's also funny to hear someone who barely did 1 month in this wiki saying the wiki has loosened in the past few months (unless you had a previous account).

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

Weakening =/= dispelling. I don't know why I'm constantly being forced to repeat myself on something so basic as that. I don't remember this wiki ever allowing for such oversimplifications as equating weakening a spell with dispelling it. Honestly, that's dishonest and infuriating on your part, and I don't think anyone should tolerate it.
And the animalistic hands disappearing doesn't actually prove the spell was dispelled. That's just speculation not really supported by canon.

But in this context if Asta is nullifying the reinforcement magic, then that means it's being weakened. Since it's something so basic I'm surprised you couldn't see it yourself. By having the Asta's sword stuck inside of him, the effects of the anti-magic negate the magic and hence weaken the reinforcement maigc that Vetto uses.

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

No, I'm not. In the first place, the claim that Reinforcement Magic manifests itself exclusively as animalistic hands is false. That's why I said it doesn't prove anything. Distorting my words isn't a valid argument, Epsilon. Not the first time you've done this to me, either. And you're the one ignoring the fact that Vetto specifically used the word "weakening."
And I don't understand how "weakening = dispelling" is not dishonest. Looks like this wiki has loosened on its reinforcement of its own rules and standards by quite a lot in the last few months. Hmph.

Anyway, I already gave my vote. So, I'm unsubscribing from the thread to avoid notification explosions. And besides, it's no longer an interesting discussion. Farewell.

The whole point is that you were trying to display a time where Asta had failed to negate bodily magic so I don't know why you're so hung up on the word dispell. Regardless of whether you want to phrase it as "dispell","weaken" or whatever, the point is that Asta was capable of negating the magic.

 

[ShiverPointGaming_101]

Bump

 

[RicardoSama]

Incon FRA idk who to truly vote but until more info and more vvalid reason mine will be incon

 

[CyborgSakumo]

What significant advantages does Noelle have here?(Honest question no sarcasm or condenscenion).

Points:

-The only advantage I see is that Noelle is possibly faster, but that idea is very sketchy as Asta has been able to keep up(at least somewhat) with people who scale to being far more powerful/faster than her.(Dark Paltry, Thunder god armor Luck,Licht,Zagred). There's more evidence to say that Asta is faster rather than the other way around, but even if you want to say Noelle is faster , saying she her speed advantage is significant enough to either allow her to run away and keep the fight long-distance or for it to be significant in close combat is sketchy.

Also from what we've seen of noelle's fights using valkyrie dress she prefers to fight cqc so I don't think it's even in character for her for her to keep the fight long-distance.

Close combat is not a good idea for her.

Due to the following reasons Asta handily beats noelle in close combat:

-In close quarters even if Asta can't outright wipe away her Valkyrie dress, blow for blow asta's attacks will deal more damage. Asta's sword (Asta vs Vetto(asta's sword did more damage in one slash than magna and luck's combined full power did,https://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/black_clover/black_clover_65/black_clover_65_5.jpg ) has shown to have limited durability negation against mages.(Unless you want to argue that asta was comparable in power to vetto at that time).

-Asta can cut right through Noelle's lance(Asta's sword easily cuts through magical weapons using anti-magic and her lance is magical)(I'm not talking about her armor just her lance).

-Asta has limited precog with ki-sensing.

-Asta is more clever/creative in combat.(This was said directly in the stats book where Noelle gets a 3 for cleverness, asta gets a 4).

-Asta has far more combat experience(especially in close combat) in general.(This is less of (Noelle's first close combat fight was when she got the Valkyrie dress, Asta started training with his sword 6 months before the magic knight exam(was taught by fanzelle) and has been in combat since he got in the black bulls which was at least a year before the elf-invasion arc.)

-Her sea dragon's roar attack which might be strong enough to deal significant damage would be easily negated by Asta's sword. She has to point her lance at him, and it takes some charge time.