DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination

[Pikaman]

Because it has been derailed to hell with personal attacks

Agreed, but both sides are guilty of this, dont paint it as a black and white issue, and CERTAINLY don’t confuse what has been valid criticism of your arguments and practises in this thread as a “personal attack” (not to be confused with the idea there have not been personal attacks on you in this thread, which there most certainly have been)

because Deagonx and Pain_to12 made better logical arguments than Xearsay

Subjective, a mod’s personal opinions on the validity of a CRT are not grounds for closing a thread in the case there are a significant portion of people who agree with said CRT

because even Malomtek has far lower interpretations than what Xearsay suggested

How is this grounds for closing the thread?

this thread would conflict with our upcoming important revision and turn both of them incoherent

I cannot speak on this, but isn’t the revision due for like, October? How does a CRT in July/August cause a direct clash?

and because several regular members who like the franchise say FRA a lot and join in on the personal attack toxic derailment bandwagon doesn't really matter compared to all of the past valid arguments, even if the nuggets of gold outwardly get buried in an ocean of sludge.

Again, the issue of toxicity affects both ends of the argument, and your opinion on the validity of arguments made is wholly subjective, if I turned around and called Deagonx’s opinion incoherent and irrelevant, the CRT and Xearsay’s suggestions would not magically be applied. In the same manner, you personally finding Xearsay’s arguments poor, especially when that take is one with active opposition, including possibly Ultima depending on context, is not grounds for closing the thread

 

[Transcending]

Because it has been derailed to hell with personal attacks

As I have stated before, not saying things like "Xearsay is biased"(that don't even contribute anything to the thread) will largely lower them.

because Deagonx and Pain_to12 made considerably better logical arguments than Xearsay and pointed out that he was misrepresenting information;

No Ant, you think they are more logical, and the issue is you trying to make your viewpoint appear as objective when there's nothing objective here, everything is based on subjective interpretations.
Also, saying Xearsay misinterpreted while not even reading all the scans and arguments doesn't seem like a good move.

because even Malomtek has far lower interpretations than what Xearsay suggested;

And people are trying to argue against even those interpretations. This point does not support locking the thread.

because we are going in circles and will never reach a conclusion

Members can disagree with other members forever, and can try to continue argue forever. If they are that persistent, we should be not looking at what the persistent members say and instead focus on the arguments of the logical members. By this logic, anybody can try arguing forever and no CRT, however logical, can be passed.

because this thread would conflict with our upcoming important revision and turn both of them incoherent;

That revision hasn't been made yet.

and because several regular members who like the franchise say FRA a lot

Maybe it's not because they just like the franchise but rather finds the arguments of Xearsay more logical?

 

[Transcending]

I am the person who organised the building of this wiki and forum in their entireties almost from the ground up with lots of help from DontTalk. My contributions to this community frankly matter of fact by far outweigh Ultima's, and you still treat me in a horribly disrespectful manner.

Ultima also didn't build our system on his own. He modified it with input from plenty of other staff members, particularly DontTalk

Irrelevant, Ultima is still the consultant.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed, but both sides are guilty of this, dont paint it as a black and white issue, and CERTAINLY don’t confuse what has been valid criticism of your arguments and practises in this thread as a “personal attack” (not to be confused with the idea there have not been personal attacks on you in this thread, which there most certainly have been)

Deagonx and Pain_to12 actually almost consistently stayed on topic except in order to defend themselves, whereas the derailment almost exclusively came from members who initially had no interest in this franchise and joined in simply because they have grudges against me personally, or who are frustrated about that DC Comics is not rated with sufficiently extreme tiers for their tastes.

Subjective, a mod’s personal opinions on the validity of a CRT are not grounds for closing a thread in the case there are a significant portion of people who agree with said CRT

There has actually been very limited staff agreement with Xearsay, and at this point this thread has largely turned incomprehensible for other staff members to make sense of due to all of the derailment.

How is this grounds for closing the thread?

It means that there is no coherent consensus in the opposing arguments being made here, and the opposing sides seem more interested in fanatically spitting poison at me and Deagonx than actually collaborating in a constructive manner,

I cannot speak on this, but isn’t the revision due for like, October? How does a CRT in July/August cause a direct clash?

If we suddenly upgrade the DC Comics cosmology, it would not fit with our current blog by PrinceOfTheMorning and we would also have to switch the scaling rapidly back and forth. The entire context turns confusing.

Again, the issue of toxicity affects both ends of the argument, and your opinion on the validity of arguments made is wholly subjective, if I turned around and called Deagonx’s opinion incoherent and irrelevant, the CRT and Xearsay’s suggestions would not magically be applied. In the same manner, you personally finding Xearsay’s arguments poor, especially when that take is one with active opposition, including possibly Ultima depending on context, is not grounds for closing the thread

No the toxicity from my side has been by far more limited and strictly annoyed self-defence reactions from being frenetically ganged up on, and Pain and Deagonx really did seem to thoroughly debunk Xearsay previously to the latest derailment-fest, which has made this discussion pointless to continue with at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

As I have stated before, not saying things like "Xearsay is biased"(that don't even contribute anything to the thread) will largely lower them.

Me being honest about that I think that Xearsay seems to want as high upgrades as possible, and that arguments from other members make it seem as if he has misrepresented what actually happened in several scans is not remotely comparable to what I have had to endure here.

No Ant, you think they are more logical, and the issue is you trying to make your viewpoint appear as objective when there's nothing objective here, everything is based on subjective interpretations.
Also, saying Xearsay misinterpreted while not even reading all the scans and arguments doesn't seem like a good move.

I suppose that this is a fair point, but I definitely think that Pain and Deagonx made very convincing arguments back when this discussion was still on track.

And people are trying to argue against even those interpretations. This point does not support locking the thread.

Again, there is no coherence here, and the participants are uninterested in collaborating with each other.

Members can disagree with other members forever, and can try to continue argue forever. If they are that persistent, we should be not looking at what the persistent members say and instead focus on the arguments of the logical members. By this logic, anybody can try arguing forever and no CRT, however logical, can be passed.

No, they most definitely can not. Beyond a certain point, a thread has just turned into a lost cause and a toxic unconstructive massive waste of time for all the people involved, and needs to be put out of its misery before it causes any more damage to both the community and all of the far more important tasks that it continuously consumes time from.

That revision hasn't been made yet.

It doesn't matter. It will come soon and they greatly conflict with each other.

Maybe it's not because they just like the franchise but rather finds the arguments of Xearsay more logical?

How are they more logical when he misrepresented crucial information by claiming that some of his scans said something other than they did?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, as I said above, this thread has turned derailed, damaged, unconstructive, and toxic beyond all repair at this point. It is actively preventing me and others from getting far more constructive and important tasks done in both real life and this community, and will not ever lead anywhere. As such there is no point to fighting to keep it open anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

Irrelevant, Ultima is still the consultant.

Yes, and I was the one who gave him that title in the first place with the hopes that he would appreciate the gesture, grow into the greater responsibility, and become motivated to help out more, but with DontTalk having graduated to bureaucrat, DarkLK having long since left this wiki, and Sera EX being permanently banned for running some kind of personal psy-ops against this community for whatever reason, I am honestly not sure if there is even a point to maintaining a position that is only occupied by a single remaining member. However, Ultima might be offended if it is removed, so I suppose that it can probably remain.

 

[Deagonx]

A lot of your posts have this kind of “people siding with you doesn’t make you right” attitude, but in a CRT, and vs debating as a whole, where it is people’s subjective opinions, I could just as easily turn the exact same mindset on you

Sure, you could, but that wouldn't make it true.

Interpretation is one thing, but in the absence of a logical explanation for how you reached your conclusions, you can't just "opinion" your way out of actually proving your point.

Such as the claim that the "smaller wholes making larger wholes" is referring to levels of reality. No justification for this. He claimed that since the World Soul was a whole, and was from a higher level of reality, that the wholes themselves were levels of reality.

There's no logic in this. How does the World Soul being a whole mean that wholes should be equated to the plane of reality the World Soul is from?

No amount of opinion can justify this nonsensical logic. You can pretend it's just a difference in opinion, but no one is obligated to take it seriously. Not all opinions are created equal.

This is just one of many huge errors that Xear refused to address, and none of the people supporting it could explain. You say that you agree, so can you explain it in a way that is logical?

If not, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree. You have to prove your point first.

 

[Deagonx]

if I turned around and called Deagonx’s opinion incoherent and irrelevant, the CRT and Xearsay’s suggestions would not magically be applied.

If you prove it with a chain of evidence and clear logic, then it would.

Maybe it's not because they just like the franchise but rather finds the arguments of Xearsay more logical?

Then explain the logic? Numerous holes have been exposed. You can't fill them in with your opinion.

Specific lines and scenes can be interpreted differently, but this isn't isn't a matter of interpretation. Xearsay literally can't explain where the levels of infinity are coming from that would justify the tiers he wants. He has refused to explain every time he has been asked. It doesn't matter how many people agree with the tiers if no one can even explain what the logic actually is.

 

[Pikaman]

If you prove it with a chain of evidence and clear logic, then it would.

My point is Ant has hardly done that, he’s basically FRA’d the logic of you and Pain_to_12, and then complained of people FRA’ing the logic of Xearsay. I have no issues with the way you have debated for the most part

 

[Antvasima]

My point is Ant has hardly done that, he’s basically FRA’d the logic of you and Pain_to_12, and then complained of people FRA’ing the logic of Xearsay. I have no issues with the way you have debated for the most part

Sure, that is a fair sentiment. I don't have the time to argue properly in most of the content revision threads that I need to help out with, so I tend to read the arguments and agree with the people who seem to both make sense and I have good experiences with regarding their past reliability. It is part of my staff work responsibilities here, in lack of better available options.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I certainly think this thread should be closed for a few days, so everyone can cool off. Then we can take it up from page 5, before the derailing started

 

[PrinceofPein]

Irrelevant, Ultima is still the consultant.

Unless you can call him to this thread and he says that he sees a High 1-A structure like the OP does, then that’s irrelevant.

But well so far, the OP has not dropped a single proof of any infinite hierarchy so far.

 

[Antvasima]

So is it fine if we finally close this thread for a few months and open it later then?

 

[Deagonx]

I think so. I don't see anything productive being accomplished at this point.

 

[Pikaman]

Why not just a self-imposed hiatus? Someone could bring forward extremely important information in those months and not be able to immediately forward it

for example, if Ultima were to come to this thread, be interested in commenting, see it is locked, and carry on with his busy life and not find the chance again to come here again, then we would have acted to the detriment of this CRT by locking it, even if only temporarily

we do need to stop our current discussion, but forcibly halting/restricting it to all seems extreme

 

[Antvasima]

If he wishes, Ultima can argue in this discussion a while after we have completed our main cosmology revision thread, and he has finished read the relevant arguments from both Xearsay, Pain_to12, and Deagonx.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that it seems best to lock this thread now. I will reopen it after we are done with our main revision if I am requested to do so then.

Thank you to everybody who genuinely tried to help out here.