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HEHE BOIIIIIII
INTRO
So were back, been waiting for the part 2 revision to drop and now that its been concluded I've got the greenlight to drop part two in this series which is a continuation of THIS thread. Been cooking this up for a while so sit tight cause were gonna be movin a little FAST(Badum tsss).
Additional Feats and Justifications.
I've linked the thread where most of the other Light speed shenanigans were posted however, originally the official translations for LB 5.2 hadn't come out but were soon to be so, so I was a little reluctant to use some of the feats there. But now that it is out it's a treasure trove of light speed Fate memes so I'll post the relevant feats now. So we can move on.
LB 5.2 Stuff
Holmes states that the Dioscuri Twins move at "Near Light Speed"
Holmes confirming that his mystic codes do indeed fire actual light
Musashi deflecting a strike from Castor and then stating "He practically moved at light speed"
Castor just outright stating he is Light Speed
Castor again just outright stating that they are Light Speed
Dioscuri's Mana burst discharges magical energy as Light
Pollux stating her swordsmanship is light itself
Musashi not only comparing the Dioscuri twins fists to light but also implying that they had been reacting to their magical energy
Castor states that they ARE light itself
Why these memes even matter
Well it's pretty much self explanatory here, these feats matter because Chaldea's servants fight and/or keep up with the Dioscuri twins on multiple occasions in LB 5.2. Which backscales to literally every servant in existence because in the first place Mash(Best girl) isn't a particularly fast servant herself or at least she isn't among the very fastest we've seen, even possessing D-Rank AGI to top it all off. So, her being able to keep up with the Dioscuri twins who are outright stated to be the speed of light or near light speed on several occasions gives a solid basis for Rel+ Combat speed and Rel+ to FTL reactions for servants.
Additionally as if that wasn't enough we got solid confirmation that Holmes's mystic codes do indeed fire actual light making almost every servant he's fought a potential LS meme as well and to add further insult to injury Musashi heavily implies on the second occasion they fight Dioscuri, that not only were Chaldea's servants dealing with the twins who are again stated to be Near light speed or light speed. But they were also reacting to their magical energy which as we know from earlier is discharged as light via mana burst which makes being able to react to it an LS meme too.
Anyways I know that the new speed ratings were already accepted in the first thread, but adding these feats onto the ones listed and discussed in the other thread further adds to the consistency of Relativistic to FTL speed for all the servants who scale to Mash, Musashi, Caenis and literally any servant that has ever fought Holmes.
The Scaling
Well this part will be fairly straight forward. We'll be going we'll be going with Relativistic+ flat out given the "Near Light Speed" statement from the Dioscuri, The Okita J sub-light speed jetpack from the Las Vegas summer event and the Saber and Diarmud "Nearing the speed of light" in FZ. It should be the best option as it's in line with the showings and doesn't contradict the famous "Servants spirit core's can't handle FTL speeds" statement from BB so there shouldn't be any problems.
However, despite that statement existing "Likely FTL" or "FTL" (depending on how this thread goes) Reactions should be added as well, based on feats like Musashi outright intercepting Castors attack which was initiated before she moved and because Castor outright states he is Light Speed, The Dioscuri are described as moving at light speed on multiple occasions, the fact that Castor also states that the Dioscuri are actually LIGHT itself and Pollux stating her swordsmanship is light itself, I think we could make a case for FTL there. On top of that just to name a few other things that were mentioned in the other thread there's stuff like Santa Karna's matts stating his punches move faster than the speed of light. Assassin Yan Qing can move so fast he doesn't leave any shadows on the ground and Shirou's famous thonk at faster than the speed of light, As well as Emyia Alter not only reacting to Melt moving at FTL speeds but also catching up to her whilst she was moving at FTL speeds. Kiara also reacts to Melt even after being reduced to the level of a servant as well. Therefore, even in the wake of the BB statement I think at the very least a "Likely FTL" reactions should be inserted onto the profiles so that all the bases are covered whilst not flipping the BB statement a proverbial bird.
A note on the verse page can also be added to provide further context as well.
Addressing the Issues
Now to address some of the qualms that were brought up with applying this thread in the other one. The first of them being, where the hell do Mages like Kiritsugu and Kotomine scale now??, and It's simple... they scale to what they always have.
Currently, most masters/combat mages are scaled to the Hansa MHS calc just like servants and there's absolutely no problem with it staying that way, because this shouldn't have scaled to servants in the first place. Hansa himself declares that he is far below the level of Burial Agency members stating that "It's an insult" to compare him to them or that "He doesn't hold a candle" to them. Therefore, in that sense, Servants>>>=Burial Agency Members>>>>Hansa. Meaning that there's little problem with leaving the speed ratings for some masters and other combat mages the same because the Hansa calc shouldn't have scaled to servants in the first place and in the case of masters like Shirou from HF or Seig, Mages like Wodime and Gray or True Ancestors and Dead Apostle Ancestors scaling them to servants isn't an issue because they've either gone toe to toe with servants in canon or they're comparable to someone who has. However, this issue will probably need to be tackled in more detail so I'll probably make a third part later on to get the specifics sorted out.
The second and probably the most pressing issue would be the "Anti-Feat" issue or at least that's what I'd like to call it but it really isn't one cause it should probably be common knowledge that statements and feats from a story arc that dropped in 2020(2022 for NA)>>>>Statements and feats from an indie visual novel that came out almost twenty years prior(don't misunderstand F/SN is peak)
Despite this people will still claim stuff like "bullet timing" and use the famous "Saber needed a command spell to go supersonic" when the former is just flat out not an issue these days and the latter just being powercreeped by events that have taken place post FGO. Even if you claim that "servants can't get stronger outside of fame boosts" the escalation is abundantly clear to see when it comes to general servant showings and statements in more recent works. Mash(best girl) lifting skyscraper sized Talos(someone actually needs to calc this lol), Salter yeeting meteors out of the sky, Fergus destroying islands, statements of Bunyan destroying mountain ranges, Siegfried matching country busting attacks, Dajaku Dajaku and his light bulb, System Keraunos etc... and we've(on the wiki at least) all come to accept that, but thing is, In Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night feats of the level we've been seeing post-FGO were just not a thing outside of possibly EA(sports to the game) the more powerful noble phantasms like Excalibur peaked at basically baseline 7-A based on calcs. So, given that there's been obvious escalation within the verse I see no reason why speed should be an exception this is also discounting the fact that there are LS statements in F/SN and F/Z too so again i see absolutely zero reason why speed should be an exception to this as they've clearly gotten faster as well.
Also, in that vein we should probably add the Nasu statement which lends credence to the power creep that has taken place over the last two decades to the verse page with a note. so as to prevent a whole bunch of downgrade threads spamming Subsonic statements from the original visual novel and older works like F/Z.
Summary
Relativistic+ speed, with Likely FTL or FTL reactions for all servants that scale to Musashi, Mash and Caenis (which is basically all of them, but y'know whatever)
Massively Hypersonic stays as base scaling for all combat mages who already do with revised reasoning
Other guys like TA's, DAA's and Masters like HF Shirou will get the same rating as servants (but this will largely be on a case by case basis and will probably need it's own dedicated thread)
INTRO
So were back, been waiting for the part 2 revision to drop and now that its been concluded I've got the greenlight to drop part two in this series which is a continuation of THIS thread. Been cooking this up for a while so sit tight cause were gonna be movin a little FAST(Badum tsss).
Additional Feats and Justifications.
I've linked the thread where most of the other Light speed shenanigans were posted however, originally the official translations for LB 5.2 hadn't come out but were soon to be so, so I was a little reluctant to use some of the feats there. But now that it is out it's a treasure trove of light speed Fate memes so I'll post the relevant feats now. So we can move on.
LB 5.2 Stuff
Holmes states that the Dioscuri Twins move at "Near Light Speed"
Holmes confirming that his mystic codes do indeed fire actual light
Musashi deflecting a strike from Castor and then stating "He practically moved at light speed"
Castor just outright stating he is Light Speed
Castor again just outright stating that they are Light Speed
Dioscuri's Mana burst discharges magical energy as Light
Pollux stating her swordsmanship is light itself
Musashi not only comparing the Dioscuri twins fists to light but also implying that they had been reacting to their magical energy
Castor states that they ARE light itself
Why these memes even matter
Well it's pretty much self explanatory here, these feats matter because Chaldea's servants fight and/or keep up with the Dioscuri twins on multiple occasions in LB 5.2. Which backscales to literally every servant in existence because in the first place Mash(Best girl) isn't a particularly fast servant herself or at least she isn't among the very fastest we've seen, even possessing D-Rank AGI to top it all off. So, her being able to keep up with the Dioscuri twins who are outright stated to be the speed of light or near light speed on several occasions gives a solid basis for Rel+ Combat speed and Rel+ to FTL reactions for servants.
Additionally as if that wasn't enough we got solid confirmation that Holmes's mystic codes do indeed fire actual light making almost every servant he's fought a potential LS meme as well and to add further insult to injury Musashi heavily implies on the second occasion they fight Dioscuri, that not only were Chaldea's servants dealing with the twins who are again stated to be Near light speed or light speed. But they were also reacting to their magical energy which as we know from earlier is discharged as light via mana burst which makes being able to react to it an LS meme too.
Anyways I know that the new speed ratings were already accepted in the first thread, but adding these feats onto the ones listed and discussed in the other thread further adds to the consistency of Relativistic to FTL speed for all the servants who scale to Mash, Musashi, Caenis and literally any servant that has ever fought Holmes.
The Scaling
Well this part will be fairly straight forward. We'll be going we'll be going with Relativistic+ flat out given the "Near Light Speed" statement from the Dioscuri, The Okita J sub-light speed jetpack from the Las Vegas summer event and the Saber and Diarmud "Nearing the speed of light" in FZ. It should be the best option as it's in line with the showings and doesn't contradict the famous "Servants spirit core's can't handle FTL speeds" statement from BB so there shouldn't be any problems.
However, despite that statement existing "Likely FTL" or "FTL" (depending on how this thread goes) Reactions should be added as well, based on feats like Musashi outright intercepting Castors attack which was initiated before she moved and because Castor outright states he is Light Speed, The Dioscuri are described as moving at light speed on multiple occasions, the fact that Castor also states that the Dioscuri are actually LIGHT itself and Pollux stating her swordsmanship is light itself, I think we could make a case for FTL there. On top of that just to name a few other things that were mentioned in the other thread there's stuff like Santa Karna's matts stating his punches move faster than the speed of light. Assassin Yan Qing can move so fast he doesn't leave any shadows on the ground and Shirou's famous thonk at faster than the speed of light, As well as Emyia Alter not only reacting to Melt moving at FTL speeds but also catching up to her whilst she was moving at FTL speeds. Kiara also reacts to Melt even after being reduced to the level of a servant as well. Therefore, even in the wake of the BB statement I think at the very least a "Likely FTL" reactions should be inserted onto the profiles so that all the bases are covered whilst not flipping the BB statement a proverbial bird.
A note on the verse page can also be added to provide further context as well.
Addressing the Issues
Now to address some of the qualms that were brought up with applying this thread in the other one. The first of them being, where the hell do Mages like Kiritsugu and Kotomine scale now??, and It's simple... they scale to what they always have.
Currently, most masters/combat mages are scaled to the Hansa MHS calc just like servants and there's absolutely no problem with it staying that way, because this shouldn't have scaled to servants in the first place. Hansa himself declares that he is far below the level of Burial Agency members stating that "It's an insult" to compare him to them or that "He doesn't hold a candle" to them. Therefore, in that sense, Servants>>>=Burial Agency Members>>>>Hansa. Meaning that there's little problem with leaving the speed ratings for some masters and other combat mages the same because the Hansa calc shouldn't have scaled to servants in the first place and in the case of masters like Shirou from HF or Seig, Mages like Wodime and Gray or True Ancestors and Dead Apostle Ancestors scaling them to servants isn't an issue because they've either gone toe to toe with servants in canon or they're comparable to someone who has. However, this issue will probably need to be tackled in more detail so I'll probably make a third part later on to get the specifics sorted out.
The second and probably the most pressing issue would be the "Anti-Feat" issue or at least that's what I'd like to call it but it really isn't one cause it should probably be common knowledge that statements and feats from a story arc that dropped in 2020(2022 for NA)>>>>Statements and feats from an indie visual novel that came out almost twenty years prior(don't misunderstand F/SN is peak)
Despite this people will still claim stuff like "bullet timing" and use the famous "Saber needed a command spell to go supersonic" when the former is just flat out not an issue these days and the latter just being powercreeped by events that have taken place post FGO. Even if you claim that "servants can't get stronger outside of fame boosts" the escalation is abundantly clear to see when it comes to general servant showings and statements in more recent works. Mash(best girl) lifting skyscraper sized Talos(someone actually needs to calc this lol), Salter yeeting meteors out of the sky, Fergus destroying islands, statements of Bunyan destroying mountain ranges, Siegfried matching country busting attacks, Dajaku Dajaku and his light bulb, System Keraunos etc... and we've(on the wiki at least) all come to accept that, but thing is, In Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night feats of the level we've been seeing post-FGO were just not a thing outside of possibly EA(sports to the game) the more powerful noble phantasms like Excalibur peaked at basically baseline 7-A based on calcs. So, given that there's been obvious escalation within the verse I see no reason why speed should be an exception this is also discounting the fact that there are LS statements in F/SN and F/Z too so again i see absolutely zero reason why speed should be an exception to this as they've clearly gotten faster as well.
Also, in that vein we should probably add the Nasu statement which lends credence to the power creep that has taken place over the last two decades to the verse page with a note. so as to prevent a whole bunch of downgrade threads spamming Subsonic statements from the original visual novel and older works like F/Z.
Summary
Relativistic+ speed, with Likely FTL or FTL reactions for all servants that scale to Musashi, Mash and Caenis (which is basically all of them, but y'know whatever)
Massively Hypersonic stays as base scaling for all combat mages who already do with revised reasoning
Other guys like TA's, DAA's and Masters like HF Shirou will get the same rating as servants (but this will largely be on a case by case basis and will probably need it's own dedicated thread)
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