All of Dragon Ball Cosmology revision (STAFF ONLY)

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well, I did it. Hopefully this is the final nail in the coffin.

Characters this would affect​

AP​

All the 3-As and low 2-Cs would be 2-C
Zeno would be low 1-C
All the 2-As would be low 1-C

Speed​

Everyone who scales above base BoG Goku would be MFTL+, possibly infinite.
All 2-As would be MFTL+, possibly infinite.
That's if this gets accepted of course.

My thoughts​

This is crazy. I never thought I'd see the day. I've been a nervous wreck ever since I started this blog and here it is.

Remember:

• Be civil, I can’t stress this enough.
• Don't spam "following" as there's a follow button.
• Do not derail the thread.
• Keep your bias aside, on both sides.
• No meming about changing standards yet.

 

[sanicspood]

first and i agree

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

A apparently a guy ("Jan Yolo") commented on your blog arguing.

 

[Dragomer]

Been a while since Low 1-C was discussed in relation to a franchise people care about. This discussion is sure to be interesting cause I never understood half the stuff related to tiers above 2-C honestly. Also good job on your blog, looks pretty thorough.

 

[Planck69]

Wasn't this agreed to be a Staff Discussion thread here?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Oh hell yeah baby, I've been waiting for this.

Anyways, the upgrade seems fine, really, really iffy about infinite speed though.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Following, I obviously agree

 

[Dragomer]

Wasn't this agreed to be a Staff Discussion thread?

The staff discussion thread is for AFTER the cosmology thing is solved I think? Could have just missunderstood the previous thread tho.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wasn't this agreed to be a Staff Discussion thread here?

Yes I forgot

 

[Planck69]

The cosmology was the main aspect of that discussion. There's literally nothing else to discuss afterwards.

Anyway, I'll move this.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Pretty much everything seems fine imo and is put together well. I'm mixed on the Universe being Infinite, but it could definitely be true. 2-C seems fine as well. I only have 1 problem, that's with this line:

The anime implies that the universe and the afterlife are separated by time and space. It's clear that saiyans being separated by time and space is referring to Goku, Vegeta and Nappa. The former being in the Afterlife and the two latter being in the universe.

This more or less appears to be saying they're separated by space, as in the distance Vegeta and Nappa will travel to arrive on Earth, and time as in how much time it will take them to do so. I haven't been caught up on the recent DB threads really so if this has already been refuted, please let me know.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

A apparently a guy ("Jan Yolo") commented on your blog arguing.

I was told off site to avoid that guy. I didn't want to pursue his ooga booga arguments so I ignored him.

 

[Planck69]

People, this is a Staff Discussion thread now.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You're a very brave soul. Following.

 

[KingTempest]

You guys can read the thread and click "watch", but please note, this is a staff discussion now.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Do not derail the thread.
Don't spam "following" as there's a follow button.

Did people just forget about this?

Anyways, after rereading the blog, I'm against infinite speed and world part. Everything else seems fine.

 

[Planck69]

I'll be removing unauthorized non-staff posts from this point onwards.

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, I agree with the universes being proper space-time continuums and by consequence those that scale to destroying the timelines containing these universes being Low Complex Multiverse level.

However, I'm very skeptical of the part about the different parts of the macrocosm being space-times themselves as well as Infinite speed. I'll wait for more knowledgeable members to voice their opinions.

 

[Planck69]

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Antvasima @Theglassman12 @Elizhaa @Migue79

Your evaluation would be appreciated.

 

[Planck69]

People, stop posting if you aren't staff.

 

[AKM sama]

The macroverses are composed of 4 realms each being infinite and their own time-space. High 3-A - 2-C

This conclusion is reached using several bits of info that have been repeatedly rejected over and over again during several long discussions. There is even a rule against bringing this stuff up. A universe is not treated as 2-C. Thus all the 3-A's and Low 2-C's will remain where they are.

There are 12-18 macroverses with the world of void and the unknown dimension. 2-C

Which is what Zeno destroyed. If anything the blog proves more for the universes to be 3-A and Zeno's destruction to cap at most at Low 2-C. I don't see how any of this is reaching tier 1 with the information at hand.

I am against this whole thing. Quite honestly seems like a blatant case of "tiers via technicality" by cherrypicking information bits to wank the verse to the highest possible level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm with AKM and I disagree too.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This conclusion is reached using several bits of info that have been repeatedly rejected over and over again during several long discussions. There is even a rule against bringing this stuff up. A universe is not treated as 2-C. Thus all the 3-A's and Low 2-C's will remain where they are.

This is super moot. The entire point of this blog was to have an established cosmology for the verse, and that was decided WAY after that rule was made. This time around you need to explain why I’m wrong instead of saying “we’ve discussed this a lot”. Whenever you say that it sounds like you don’t actually know what to say to refute my claims.

Which is what Zeno destroyed.

He destroyed the timeline. After Beerus killed Zamasu he created a 6th time ring. When Zeno destroyed the timeline, the time ring disappeared, giving us 5 time rings. Whis then went to a different timeline and prevented the Gods from being killed. His actions would create another time ring due to the rules of the verse. If Zeno didn’t destroy the timeline, we would’ve been shown 7 time rings in the box instead of 6.

If anything the blog proves more for the universes to be 3-A and Zeno's destruction to cap at most at Low 2-C.

You just said the low 2-Cs would remain where they are. Please make up your mind.

I don't see how any of this is reaching tier 1 with the information at hand.

Unless you explain why then your argument has no basis

I am against this whole thing. Quite honestly seems like a blatant case of "tiers via technicality" by cherrypicking information bits to wank the verse to the highest possible level.

—>Cherrypicking
—>Wank
—>Technicality
Are these supposed to be refutes or fighting words? Let’s try to be professional here.

 

[Planck69]

I personally fail to see the cherry-picking involved, unless there's scans that contradict the 12-18 universes being part of an overarching timeline.

 

[Migue79]

I will give my input on this matter in a bit. Give me some time, please.

 

[AKM sama]

This is super moot. The entire point of this blog was to have an established cosmology for the verse, and that was decided WAY after that rule was made. This time around you need to explain why I’m wrong instead of saying “we’ve discussed this a lot”. Whenever you say that it sounds like you don’t actually know what to say to refute my claims.

Actually no. I don't need to repeat the same arguments and do the same dance that has been done many times simply because you keep brining up something that has been rejected over and over again. Just accept and move on. You brining up the same points again and again despite being told not to do, is in direct violation of the rules.

He destroyed the timeline.

And he is 2-C for doing so.

You just said the low 2-Cs would remain where they are. Please make up your mind.

Yes, my mind is already made up. It's your blog that proves more on the line of downgrading the verse to 3-A and Low 2-C.

Unless you explain why then your argument has no basis

This is not Low 1-C. Your explanation is insufficient and based on rejected information and wrong interpretation.

Are these supposed to be refutes or fighting words? Let’s try to be professional here.

I am just being blunt and calling it how I see it.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Actually no. I don't need to repeat the same arguments and do the same dance that has been done many times simply because you keep brining up something that has been rejected over and over again. Just accept and move on. You brining up the same points again and again despite being told not to do, is in direct violation of the rules.

You mean your outdated arguments that never made sense to begin with? For years you opposed straight up 3-A and 2-C. You always supported low 2-C. Now that you’ve changed your premise, I expect you to use new arguments to debunk my claim.

And he is 2-C for doing so.

Yes, my mind is already made up. It's your blog that proves more on the line of downgrading the verse to 3-A and Low 2-C.

This is not Low 1-C. Your explanation is insufficient and based on rejected information and wrong interpretation.

Rejected info? Explain why it’s wrong then. Explain to me in detail why you think a timeline composed of uncountable infinite snapshots of 4D objects is not low 1-C.

I am just being blunt and calling it how I see it.

With that “blunt” attitude you didn’t even present proper refutes. All you said was “we’ve discussed this” “this is wrong” and “this is wank”.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I know this is a staff thread, so forgive my intrusion, but I think I should say one small thing to give clarity on this for those looking in and as a reminder for people already here.

The basis of this upgrade for DB is because of our tier 1 standards acknowledging a timeline that contains lesser timelines, or a "hyper timeline" as the term for it, to be Low 1-C. That means, as long as the universes within the higher timeline are considered separate space-time continuums, the higher timeline is going to result in a Low 1-C upgrade in relation to our standards. So a choice would need to be made here in relation to that. Either the universes in the cosmology are not separate space-time continuums and it results in no upgrade (a downgrade if anything), or they are separate space-time continuum's, and the given timeline containing lesser Low 2-C timelines results in Low 1-C. No in-betweens. It's either one or the other.

Just to set the record straight of what this would come down to with the given blog from Zamasu and what people who disagree with this would need to prove to refute it.

 

[Antvasima]

I am neutral regarding this, as I am too overworked to properly read the arguments. Personally speaking, it would be kind of fun with a higher-tiered Dragon Ball, but accuracy is most important.

@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Antoniofer @DarkDragonMedeus @Crabwhale @TISSG7Redgrave @Promestein @Ryukama @Dino_Ranger_Black @Dragonmasterxyz @Soldier_Blue @KLOL506 @Therefir @DemonGodMitchAubin @Ionliosite @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Ovy7 @QuasiYuri @First_Witch @KingPin0422

Would you be willing to help analyse and evaluate this please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I am glad Zamasu went through the trouble of collecting a multitude of interview scans; I do not quite agree with everything but, I will comment on.

First of all, I can see some baring albeit not 100% confident on the High 3-A stuff, but I'm honestly against 2-C BoG saga cast. There are multiple "Endless" statements, but people are knit picky about the word Endless and only except the word Infinite around here. Though, I also did see some infinite statements too. Afterlife having a separate flow of time needs a better raw translations and a human to properly translate that. Otherwise, I recall it being mentioned that "Having no flow of time" simply meant that characters don't age in the afterlife. Also, to clairify context, "Parallel Universe" meaning alternate timeline is a general assumption as far as literally alternate realities are concerned. This means universes that have their own parallel version of Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, every other planet and star in the universe, ect. Those are generally assumed to be alternate timelines. But stuff like Afterlifes, Demon Realms, ect aren't really assumed to be Low 2-C universes but more so 3-A to High 3-A sized pocket dimensions. I'm fine with Universes 1-12 being Bubble Multiverses individually.

But I do agree with the Universes 1-12 or Timelines with 18 universes being different timelines altogether. Mostly a repeat of things said in blog and spoken by other staff members. Hence why the Angels are 2-C as well as Zeno.

But I'm honestly against Infinite speed or Tier 1 stuff. Traveling to other universes is simply Dimensional Travel. And Infinite Snapshots simply means infinite number of time periods within one or more timeline, not quite infinite timelines. So not sold on any DBS character being Low 1-C. I know Heroes has an infinite number of timelines so fine with that being 2-A or even neutral about Low 1-C.

That's all I can say for now.

 

[Antvasima]

I should also mention that AKM is sick right now, so it might be best to postpone this discussion for a while until he has recovered properly.

 

[Planck69]

@DarkDragonMedeus

A timeline contains uncountably infinite moments with 3-dimensional universes so destroying it in its entirety would be equivalent to destroying all those universes across time and thus Low 2-C. A hypertimeline would contain uncountably infinite moments, each with timelines within them so destroying it would be equivalent to destroying uncountably infinite space-time continuums across this higher time. Thus, Low 1-C. This is what's being proposed for Dragon Ball.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I'm not staff, so I will keep my comment to a minimum, and if somebody wants me to give input further on this thread I'll wait to ask if I want to, or be asked, however I am knowledgeable on the series, and the tiering system for the wiki, and I can say that statements like "I don't agree, it just seems like 3-A" and "It's cherry-picking and wank" are not helpful in the least. If your going to argue its wrong actually articulate your argument explicitly and elaborate on the issues you have with it, that way we know what you see as wrong with the argument and it can effectively be addressed if possible.

For the record though I agree with the OP.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I should also mention that AKM is sick right now, so it might be best to postpone this discussion for a while until he has recovered properly.

We can still discuss this while he recovers. No need to postpone it. Especially when his refutes are subpar.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am glad Zamasu went through the trouble of collecting a multitude of interview scans; I do not quite agree with everything but, I will comment on.

First of all, I can see some baring albeit not 100% confident on the High 3-A stuff, but I'm honestly against 2-C BoG saga cast. There are multiple "Endless" statements, but people are knit picky about the word Endless and only except the word Infinite around here. Though, I also did see some infinite statements too. Afterlife having a separate flow of time needs a better raw translations and a human to properly translate that. Otherwise, I recall it being mentioned that "Having no flow of time" simply meant that characters don't age in the afterlife. Also, to clairify context, "Parallel Universe" meaning alternate timeline is a general assumption as far as literally alternate realities are concerned. This means universes that have their own parallel version of Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, every other planet and star in the universe, ect. Those are generally assumed to be alternate timelines. But stuff like Afterlifes, Demon Realms, ect aren't really assumed to be Low 2-C universes but more so 3-A to High 3-A sized pocket dimensions. I'm fine with Universes 1-12 being Bubble Multiverses individually.

But I do agree with the Universes 1-12 or Timelines with 18 universes being different timelines altogether. Mostly a repeat of things said in blog and spoken by other staff members. Hence why the Angels are 2-C as well as Zeno.

But I'm honestly against Infinite speed or Tier 1 stuff. Traveling to other universes is simply Dimensional Travel. And Infinite Snapshots simply means infinite number of time periods within one or more timeline, not quite infinite timelines. So not sold on any DBS character being Low 1-C. I know Heroes has an infinite number of timelines so fine with that being 2-A or even neutral about Low 1-C.

That's all I can say for now.

Thank you for taking the time to analyse this Medeus.

If somebody links to the raw scans that need to be translated, I could ask Qliphoth Bacikal, ShiroyashaGinSan, and ChocomilkAlex to help us out.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, I am glad Zamasu went through the trouble of collecting a multitude of interview scans; I do not quite agree with everything but, I will comment on.

First of all, I can see some baring albeit not 100% confident on the High 3-A stuff, but I'm honestly against 2-C BoG saga cast. There are multiple "Endless" statements, but people are knit picky about the word Endless and only except the word Infinite around here. Though, I also did see some infinite statements too. Afterlife having a separate flow of time needs a better raw translations and a human to properly translate that. Otherwise, I recall it being mentioned that "Having no flow of time" simply meant that characters don't age in the afterlife. Also, to clairify context, "Parallel Universe" meaning alternate timeline is a general assumption as far as literally alternate realities are concerned. This means universes that have their own parallel version of Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, every other planet and star in the universe, ect. Those are generally assumed to be alternate timelines. But stuff like Afterlifes, Demon Realms, ect aren't really assumed to be Low 2-C universes but more so 3-A to High 3-A sized pocket dimensions. I'm fine with Universes 1-12 being Bubble Multiverses individually.

But I do agree with the Universes 1-12 or Timelines with 18 universes being different timelines altogether. Mostly a repeat of things said in blog and spoken by other staff members. Hence why the Angels are 2-C as well as Zeno.

But I'm honestly against Infinite speed or Tier 1 stuff. Traveling to other universes is simply Dimensional Travel. And Infinite Snapshots simply means infinite number of time periods within one or more timeline, not quite infinite timelines. So not sold on any DBS character being Low 1-C. I know Heroes has an infinite number of timelines so fine with that being 2-A or even neutral about Low 1-C.

That's all I can say for now.

I agree with this. I remember this being part of the reasoning for the rejection of Tier 1 and Infinite Speed stuff and whatnot.

 

[Antvasima]

We can still discuss this while he recovers. No need to postpone it. Especially when his refutes are subpar.

The point is that AKM is usually well able to argue about these issues, but is not able to strain himself too much right now, and neither should we push him to do so. It is very inconsiderate. He needs to recover in peace.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well, I am glad Zamasu went through the trouble of collecting a multitude of interview scans; I do not quite agree with everything but, I will comment on.

First of all, I can see some baring albeit not 100% confident on the High 3-A stuff, but I'm honestly against 2-C BoG saga cast. There are multiple "Endless" statements, but people are knit picky about the word Endless and only except the word Infinite around here.

It’s not the statement themselves that are the problem because there are multiple. It’s what people say about them.

Though, I also did see some infinite statements too. Afterlife having a separate flow of time needs a better raw translations and a human to properly translate that. Otherwise, I recall it being mentioned that "Having no flow of time" simply meant that characters don't age in the afterlife. Also, to clairify context, "Parallel Universe" meaning alternate timeline is a general assumption as far as literally alternate realities are concerned. This means universes that have their own parallel version of Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, every other planet and star in the universe, ect. Those are generally assumed to be alternate timelines. But stuff like Afterlifes, Demon Realms, ect aren't really assumed to be Low 2-C universes but more so 3-A to High 3-A sized pocket dimensions. I'm fine with Universes 1-12 being Bubble Multiverses individually.

I mean, with the other statements provided “separated by time and space” “walls between dimensions” and the cosmology not being different between the anime and manga.

But I do agree with the Universes 1-12 or Timelines with 18 universes being different timelines altogether. Mostly a repeat of things said in blog and spoken by other staff members. Hence why the Angels are 2-C as well as Zeno.

Ok? You’re kinda right ig.

But I'm honestly against Infinite speed or Tier 1 stuff. Traveling to other universes is simply Dimensional Travel.

They’re not infinite speed for that. Check Beerus’s profile and you’ll see why.

And Infinite Snapshots simply means infinite number of time periods within one or more timeline, not quite infinite timelines. So not sold on any DBS character being Low 1-C. I know Heroes has an infinite number of timelines so fine with that being 2-A or even neutral about Low 1-C.

Uhh DDM I appreciate you having an actual refute but you kinda contradicted yourself. You can’t agree and disagree with low 1-C at the same time. Also, how we treat low 2-C (uncountable infinite 3-A universes) your basically saying that our low 2-C standards are just high 3-A.

That's all I can say for now.

Okay dokey.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The point is that AKM is usually well able to argue about these issues, but is not able to strain himself too much right now, and neither shoud we push him to do so. It is very inconsiderate. He needs to recover in peace.

With all due respect, with the stunt he just pulled, I bet to differ.

 

[AKM sama]

For years you opposed straight up 3-A and 2-C. You always supported low 2-C. Now that you’ve changed your premise, I expect you to use new arguments to debunk my claim.

What? Why would any new arguments be presented for information from the Daizenshuu that is old and brings nothing new to the table. And yes, I am still against the universes being infinite and 2-C due to the same reasons. Please drop this topic. A universe is not 2-C and nobody is getting infinite speed.

Rejected info? Explain why it’s wrong then. Explain to me in detail why you think a timeline composed of uncountable infinite snapshots of 4D objects is not low 1-C.

Please see the old threads for why the above notion is wrong. As for why it is not tier 1, we do not give tier 1 for simply having a timeline of 12-18 universes. That's only 2-C. Tier 1 comes at a level of infinity that goes beyond uncountable infinite number of Low 2-C structures, i.e. 2-A. There are no infinite number of 2-A multiverses here.

With that “blunt” attitude you didn’t even present proper refutes. All you said was “we’ve discussed this” “this is wrong” and “this is wank”.

Because that's all what's required for a CRT of this level. Idk why this isn't in Fun and Games, honestly.