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Additional for servant physiology

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Unconventional mind and memories, servant has mind and memories that reside in the soul


Mind manipulation and Memory manipulation (also unconventional) via spiritual attack or conceptual weapons. servant's spiritual attack was able to attack the soul in which there are concepts and information
Soul Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation: A Servants main sustenance is mana, but they can consume souls to maintain themselves into the world. Servants can also perform spiritual attacks that can cleave souls, and even reverse possession from Divine Spirits when their resistance is down.
Also mind and memories (Scan as above)

Further context, Here sitonai will restore elisabeth's memory, but she must influence the spirit origin in order to manipulate the memory because the memory is in her soul



Nasuverse's concept.
so as not to confuse the reader, it should be written on the nasuverse page that the concept of nasu does not follow the existing types but is qualified for types 1,2,3 and can be competed with other types 1
 
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i have the same question with authority. Users of authority can resist authority, but what if it is an ability that is not authority? I mean, authority is given to gods by gaia/alaya right.
if someone without authority/divinity fights an authority user then all his attacks will be negated, for example when chaldea fought quetzalqoatl in Babylonia they are unable to harm it, even ishtar herself was unable to harm because her authority was under quetz
 
if someone without authority/divinity fights an authority user then all his attacks will be negated, for example when chaldea fought quetzalqoatl in Babylonia they are unable to harm it, even ishtar herself was unable to harm because her authority was under quetz
samba onee san was already stated to be immune to all good aligned servants, tho. Also, it looks a bit like "only a stand can hurt a stand". There is also the point when mashu defeated ereshkigal with help from gil and ishtar .
 
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samba onee san was already stated to be immune to all good aligned servants, tho. Also, it looks a bit like "only a stand can hurt a stand"
I'm not talking about Santa Quetz but Rider Quetz. And not only quetz it's just an example.

I don't think it's the same as a stand because authority is an ability conceptual manipulation, law manipulation, etc
Kennou. Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms.
An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building.
Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past.
A normal skill “is able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle,” but an Authority works “simply by making things happen because one has that right.”
A divine spirit Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (self-destruction).
In CCC the one who swallowed up Moon Cell has reached a level of power that is Authority class.

Fate/EXTRA Material: Encyclopedia of Fate/EXTRA
 
I'm not talking about Santa Quetz but Rider Quetz. And not only quetz it's just an example.

I don't think it's the same as a stand because authority is an ability conceptual manipulation, law manipulation, etc
it was stated in babylonian singularity that servants of good alignment cannot harm quetzcoatyl. i am taking about rider only. Authority works a bit like
i am god of ice. I want ice over there. Poof, ice is over there.
yeah, i know authorities are not like stands, but it is an example of nlf.
Anyway it is an NLF. Is it specifically stated that people cannot harm gods with authority? Servants without divinity were able to affect kama. Fransis drake mugged poseidon at a point, i think.
 
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Anyway it is an NLF. Is it specifically stated that people cannot harm gods with authority? Servants without divinity were able to affect kama. Fransis drake mugged poseidon at a point, i think.
People, for some reason, generally the fact the Earth Mother Goddess Authority in EXTRA gives ''Immunity'' to attacks to all Authorities. It's a Potnia Theron/Domina Coronam/Ten Crowns thing, not an Authorities thing. If anyone who has an authority was Invul to anyone without, Gilgamesh should never be hurt, as Enuma Elish is an authority, the first of the nation-building type at that technically, for example.
 
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it was stated in babylonian singularity that servants of good alignment cannot harm quetzcoatyl. i am taking about rider only. Authority works a bit like
i am god of ice. I want ice over there. Poof, ice is over there.
yeah, i know authorities are not like stands, but it is an example of nlf.
Anyway it is an NLF. Is it specifically stated that people cannot harm gods with authority? Servants without divinity were able to affect kama. Fransis drake mugged poseidon at a point, i think.
It was stated with jaguar too, Merlin saying that we wouldn't be able to harm Jaguar if we didn't had a servant with divinity/authority.

And karna don't have authority, it's only his armor who have it.

Francis drake had a special thing for posseison.


People, for some reason, generally the fact the Earth Mother Goddess Authority in EXTRA gives ''Immunity'' to attacks to all Authorities. It's a Potnia Theron/Domina Coronam/Ten Crowns thing, not an Authorities thing. If anyone who has an authority was Invul to anyone without, Gilgamesh should never be hurt, as Enuma Elish is an authority, the first of the nation-building type at that technically, for example.
Not? It what show with karna armor in extra CCC when his armor with authority was able to negate moon cell authority, same for Budha, same for Zeus who was able to block the authority of other god. Or that Quirinus was able to overthrow Zeus power because he have higher authority.

And Where do you get the Enuma elish being an authority? It's Tell nowhere + having an authority weapon doesn't make the user "invulnerable" see karna armor
 
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And anyways why you guy talk about invulnerability? The thing accepted it's that it give resistance not invulnerability
 

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This seems like more of an indirect inprecise side-effect to me. It would be like giving characters memory manipulation for being able to hit others in the head and give them concussions.
 
This seems like more of an indirect inprecise side-effect to me. It would be like giving characters memory manipulation for being able to hit others in the head and give them concussions.
I think that's an inaccurate analogy, it's more like an unconventional memory destruction because it resides in the soul being destroyed, just like the soul hax including concepts hax and info hax which had have accepted on this wiki


And how about considering unconventional mind and memories in the first paragraph?
 
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And karna don't have authority, it's only his armor who have it.
A servant's NPs are part of his very being, there's no difference between the NP and the servant. The NP itself is made out of the servant's magical energy...
And this doesn't even make sense, the Authority and the Divinities are one and the same anyway. What is generally refered to as authorities (in Skills and in NPs, for example) are imitations or similar, as Authorities BY DEFINITION are different things from Skills and etc.

Not? It what show with karna armor in extra CCC when his armor with authority was able to negate moon cell authority, same for Budha, same for Zeus who was able to block the authority of other god. Or that Quirinus was able to overthrow Zeus power because he have higher authority.

And Where do you get the Enuma elish being an authority? It's Tell nowhere + having an authority weapon doesn't make the user "invulnerable" see karna armor
Enuma Elish draws from Ea's nation-building authority that divided heaven from earth, Extella even says it originally was the authority of Nation-Building, something like that, also reference as a crystallization of the power of a god born long before humans, when the Earth was still too inhospitable for other Gods to do their own Nation-Building. This is known since F/SN, it being directly related to Authority of Nation-Building, so 15+ years, and is actually even in the VS Battles page for Ea...
Karna's Armor has a ''conceptual effect'' of reducing the damage to a tenth, it has never given him any form of invulnerability.
 
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A servant's NPs are part of his very being, there's no difference between the NP and the servant. The NP itself is made out of the servant's magical energy...
And this doesn't even make sense, the Authority and the Divinities are one and the same anyway. What is generally refered to as authorities (in Skills and in NPs, for example) are imitations or similar, as Authorities BY DEFINITION are different things from Skills and etc.


Enuma Elish draws from Ea's nation-building authority that divided heaven from earth, Extella even says it originally was the authority of Nation-Building, something like that, also reference as a crystallization of the power of a god born long before humans, when the Earth was still too inhospitable for other Gods to do their own Nation-Building. This is known since F/SN, it being directly related to Authority of Nation-Building, so 15+ years, and is actually even in the VS Battles page for Ea...
Karna's Armor has a ''conceptual effect'' of reducing the damage to a tenth, it has never given him any form of invulnerability.
For the first thing no? It's show pretty many time, gilgamesh have a tablet who offer a supreme authority but it doesn't mean he have authority.

It was tell many time in extra that only karna armor have authority because it was made by his father. And we see it in extra too that it's really the armor that have authority and not him.

"She was still ultimately doomed once the Holy Grail War would be completed and everything besides the winner was to be deleted, so Karna gave her his armor to allow her to return to the real world due to the nature of the sun overwhelming that of the moon" (talk about Karma armor resisting Moon cell)


Authority and divinity is not the same lol.

Divinity is the measurement if someone can be a divine spirit or not. Iskandar have divinity he doesn't have authority....


Authority is the special capacity of god to do what they want to do not all people with divinity have it as it a capacity for god/divine spirit in first.

I know that authority are not skill and np.


Being the cristalisaton of power of a god doesn't mean it's a authority, pretty much all divine construct are this, i don't see it in the page of vsb. And being related to authority doesn't make you an authority. If EA was really an authority, he wouldn't have need to gain authority to fight BB in first.


And for one more time, authority doesn't give invulnerability it give resistance here in vsb, can you just like read profile???
 
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For the first thing no? It's show pretty many time, gilgamesh have a tablet who offer a supreme authority but it doesn't mean he have authority.
That is something we LITERALLY have one line of description, as a very minor comment, while talking about another thing, and is a clear reference to the type of cerimonial storytelling the people of the Fertile Crescent had when trading their main pantheon of Gods... And technically, yes he does have it. Whover has the tablet has the authority, that's the point of the tablet.

It was tell many time in extra that only karna armor have authority because it was made by his father. And we see it in extra too that it's really the armor that have authority and not him.

"She was still ultimately doomed once the Holy Grail War would be completed and everything besides the winner was to be deleted, so Karna gave her his armor to allow her to return to the real world due to the nature of the sun overwhelming that of the moon" (talk about Karma armor resisting Moon cell)
Golden Armor
In Hindu mythology, the golden armor and earrings and the hero Karna had upon his body. Karna's mother, Kunti, feared being an unmarried mother and prayed for the armor and earrings from Surya in order to protect her son.
A defense-type Noble Phantasm that emits the radiance of the sun itself. Since it is light itself given shape, even a god would have difficulty destroying it, and Indra put in the effort to render it unavailable to Karna.
In the myth, Indra took the form of a Brahmin and visited Karna's castle. He approached Karna when he was taking his holy bath and said, "I wish to receive the things you carry."
Karna had sworn not to refuse the request of a Brahmin made during this time. While aware of Indra's trap, he accepted this request and handed over the requested item, the armor that was his only proof of his lineage.
While it was taken from him in the myth, as a Servant, Karna still possesses it. While it appears massive, it's an invincible armor that disregards physics and concepts to curtail antagonistic interference.
As long as he wears it, the damage Karna takes is reduced to one-tenth.

Kavacha and Kundala: O Sun, Become Armor
Rank: A
Type: Anti-Unit (Self) Noble Phantasm
Range: 0
Maximum Targets: 1 Person
Fearing becoming an unmarried mother, Karna's mother, Kunti, for the sake of protecting her son, begged Surya for protection and was bestowed golden armor and an earring.
Emitting the radiance of the sun, the armor is a strong defensive Noble Phantasm.
As it is an existence formed from light even gods find it difficult to destroy.
It has become one with Karna's body.

The descriptions of K&K themselves say you are wrong in calling it an Authority in at least 3 places, and I didn't paid that much attention reading it...

Authority and divinity is not the same lol.
This is the problem with having this conversation in English... Divinities as in kamigami, not as in the skill Divinity.

Being the cristalisaton of power of a god doesn't mean it's a authority, pretty much all divine construct are this, i don't see it in the page of vsb. And being related to authority doesn't make you an authority. If EA was really an authority, he wouldn't have need to gain authority to fight BB in first.
The description saying Authority is what makes it related to Authorities. It's literally written in the description in Extella ''Originally/essentially a nation-building authority." It cannot be any more direct.
"本来は国造りの権能。神の名を冠した乖離剣エアから放たれるかって混沌とした世界の天地を分けた一撃."

And for one more time, authority doesn't give invulnerability it give resistance here in vsb, can you just like read profile???
You casually dismiss Ea's profile that explictly says it is an Authority while critizing me... A little hipocritical, but okay. It should be neither, that's my point. It should only be Resistance and/or Invulnerability to the especific sphere of the Authority. The Earth Mother Goddess Authority just happens to LITERALLY include everything that is alive, and as that includes the Earth itself, it is stupid. And Resistance is not even the correct term, it's Damage Mitigation via rewriting of events, it makes thing ''Not occur'', instead of tanking anything.
 

CrimsonStarFallen

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Outside of the whole derailing above:

The soul in Nasu does contain your memories, mind and ego. The context for that is that Shirou's body had died, but his soul was still alive, so they had it transfered to another body. One concern Rin had was that it wouldn't be Shirou anymore, but since the soul holds the mind and memories within it, then he would be same Shirou.

Screenshot_20211009-110000_Chrome.jpg

-Heaven's Feels epilogue

It has also been said before that the soul receives protection from the body and mind.

Screenshot_20211009-111642_Chrome.jpg

-Beast III/R's mats

So to damage the soul, one would need to get pass the defences of the mind. I think it's pretty clear that affecting the soul also requires mind manipulation.
 
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-Beast III/R's mats

So to damage the soul, one would need to get pass the defences of the mind. I think it's pretty clear that affecting the soul also requires mind manipulation.

This specifically is a "reference" to Darnic Yddmillenia and the ''why humans shouldn't consume souls'' more than the mind being a defense vs someone trying to damage the soul. She isn't trying to damage them, she is consuming them, which should lead to her own downfall. It's not that explored, but souls have purity and other characteristics. Purity is at it's maximum when you are born (or created if Homunculus) and, as you live (and make memories) it gets dyed by those experiences.

Darnic also consumes souls - but as he does so without doing the process of separating the experiences called memories/mind, he was only able to consume 3-4 before feeling as if he was already being affected, becoming someone else even if his own experiences are preserved. The records themselves will be kept, which in theory is the main function of the soul, but the person as a being would be someone else.

There are other examples of no such "protection"/necessity of mind manipulation existing, such as Kiritsugu permanently damaging Kayneth's Magic Circuit with his Origin Bullet.
 
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Antvasima

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Okay. We usually require specific more precise, direct, and/or goal-oriented manipulation of minds to qualify for this ability, but I suppose that "Limited Mind Manipulation" might be acceptable then. It still seems inappropriate to me without further evidence though.
 

CrimsonStarFallen

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Ignoring the fact that Apocrypha only came to exist after Fate/Extra and thus there's no way Kiara's thing is referencing Darnic, there's also little evidence to support this.

Kiara's original idea of her power were to remove the protections of the body and mind to reach into the soul in the first place. It even refers to them as a "defenceless soul".

Darnic's absorption also leads to even more proof of the mind and memory being linked anyway, he eating souls would mean gaining the experience and memories of others to the point he felt like he became another person.
 
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This specifically is a "reference" to Darnic Yddmillenia and the ''why humans shouldn't consume souls'' more than the mind being a defense vs someone trying to damage the soul. She isn't trying to damage them, she is consuming them, which should lead to her own downfall. It's not that explored, but souls have purity and other characteristics. Purity is at it's maximum when you are born (or created if Homunculus) and, as you live (and make memories) it gets dyed by those experiences.

Darnic also consumes souls - but as he does so without doing the process of separating the experiences called memories/mind, he was only able to consume 3-4 before feeling as if he was already being affected, becoming someone else even if his own experiences are preserved. The records themselves will be kept, which in theory is the main function of the soul, but the person as a being would be someone else.

There are other examples of no such "protection"/necessity of mind manipulation existing, such as Kiritsugu permanently damaging Kayneth's Magic Circuit with his Origin Bullet.
This is the weirdest possible interpretation of a rather straightforward statement, and requires quite a few more assumptions than just accepting that the mind and body protect the soul, as repeatedly stated before. This is something alluded to as far back as Tsukihime, where the 7th scripture was able to affect spirits, but it wasn't able to just hit the soul of something like a vampire until Ciel customized it, because they have bodies.

Darnic is an entirely different case, and CCC quite literally predates almost everything related to him (volume 2 of Apoc wasn't released until August 2013, several months after CCC, which was already being written well before its release) so there's no way it's at all a "reference". And it's much less likely that the protections statement, that is implied to exist as far back as Tsukihime, is referring to someone who didn't have any abilities of the sort until mid-late 2013

As for Kerry damaging Kayneth with the origin round, how exactly does this show that there is no protection? This would just show that the origin rounds, which enact an origin forcibly in someone else, is able to meet the requirements for affecting the soul still, and gets through the defenses.
 
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Except the base of Apocrypha is from June 2011, a game project that didn't went on (and therefore, considering it wasn't something beginning, but ending, predates this at least a bit) and eventually was rebooted as FGO and EXTRA CCC was released in 2013... And Darnic is one of the masters of the 3rd Fuyuki, the noe in which Angra was invoked, so could theoretically be even older than that.

Don't randomly look at dates...
 
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Antvasima

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So should we apply "Limited Mind Manipulation" then?
 

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Okay. I have unlocked it.

Please list the EXACTLY WORDED titles for ALL of the other pages that you need me to unlock, so my automated script can handle it.
 
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This is the weirdest possible interpretation of a rather straightforward statement, and requires quite a few more assumptions than just accepting that the mind and body protect the soul, as repeatedly stated before. This is something alluded to as far back as Tsukihime, where the 7th scripture was able to affect spirits, but it wasn't able to just hit the soul of something like a vampire until Ciel customized it, because they have bodies.
Seventh Holy Scripture [Weapon name]
...
Unable to hold herself back, she set about improving it, and because of that the Scripture's elemental ended up having the essence of its personality warped.
Before Ciel remodeled it, it was only effective against spiritual entities. Now, however, it has been transformed into a lump of iron that can pound a vampire to death with its physical attack power alone. It has a gross weight of 60 kilograms, and a maximum weight of twice that with optional attachments. It's a… Gatling scripture!?

It never had any intention of being a weapon against anything corporeal before Ciel made into the ''lump of iron'' version it became.
Spirits and Souls are very different things. Why something affecting spiritual creatures would need to affect Souls? It's like saying a exorcism ritual/ Kirei's Kyrie Eleison should have also affect him.

It's not even an interpretation... It's said as far back as in the original Fate/Stay Night that the consumption of Souls as Magical Energy is a ''prerrogative of Spiritual Beings'' and similar beings, like the very beast the Seventh Scripture was made out of, a Unicorn IIRC, something along those lines. Darnic, from his interaction with Servants, developed a way to consume the souls - was it as life force/od/magical energy? does the human body count as a ''Dying Agent" for magical energy? did he forgot magical energy is dyed by the place it's stored, also known since FSN, said by RIn? - but it was risky and basically asking for something to go wrong given he was a living human and the Soul and Body exist as two complementary parts.

The only straightforward thing that seems to be ignored is that the process requires Kiara's Code Cast before the whole Beast thing, and Code Casts are computer programs, not material objects.

It was repeated ad nauseaum that ''only one person'' ever understood the Soul, also. Many things around this topic may very well be wrong, we even have two descriiptions of the ''relationship between the soul and the body'' that are one the opposite of the other..

As for Kerry damaging Kayneth with the origin round, how exactly does this show that there is no protection? This would just show that the origin rounds, which enact an origin forcibly in someone else, is able to meet the requirements for affecting the soul still, and gets through the defenses.
Why are you creating such a round-about way of talking about this ''type of attack/defense'', that is not even necessary in the first place, because the Nasuverse has Conceptual Weapons, that include exactly things that affect the Soul in it's scope? Or better yet, give me one clear example of the Soul being targetted and this attack failing because of the Body or the Mind/Brain. The only thing anywhere near this is like Material Bodies being the preference in Servant fights because without them their Cores are ''exposed'' (and wouldn't be correct because they still have Spiritual Bodies when exposed like this), but I believe you are talking about Humans/Magus, not Servants.
 
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Except the base of Apocrypha is from June 2011, a game project that didn't went on (and therefore, considering it wasn't something beginning, but ending, predates this at least a bit) and eventually was rebooted as FGO and EXTRA CCC was released in 2013... And Darnic is one of the masters of the 3rd Fuyuki, the noe in which Andra was invoked, so could theoretically be even older than that.

Don't randomly look at dates...
Even the unfinished game comes after Extra, and CCC's story wasn't written long after Extra released. You can't really assume the unfinished game had all this stuff fleshed out about Darnic when we don't know everything that was in it, or how far it was along in development.

Like, this train of logic to try and link Kiara's ability to be a reference to Darnic doesn't work on any level, and this is ignoring older things that imply the statement of "mind and body protect the soul" is literal, that come from even earlier works

Your assumption only works if we assume this is referring to Darnic's thing, but there is almost no logically sound way to assume it does refer to that

Seventh Holy Scripture [Weapon name]
...
Unable to hold herself back, she set about improving it, and because of that the Scripture's elemental ended up having the essence of its personality warped.
Before Ciel remodeled it, it was only effective against spiritual entities. Now, however, it has been transformed into a lump of iron that can pound a vampire to death with its physical attack power alone. It has a gross weight of 60 kilograms, and a maximum weight of twice that with optional attachments. It's a… Gatling scripture!?

It never had any intention of being a weapon against anything corporeal before Ciel made into the ''lump of iron'' version it became.
Yes, this is precisely what I'm saying, it was unable to be a weapon against things with bodies, which clearly shows what's being said above.
Spirits and Souls are very different things. Why something affecting spiritual creatures would need to affect Souls? It's like saying a exorcism ritual/ Kirei's Kyrie Eleison should have also affect him.
Because Ghosts and other soul based things are part of what the church fights. The 7th scripture in specific also explicitly hurts souls, as seen in the ends of Tsukihime, meaning that spiritual entities did in fact include souls, and that this soul hitting was originally completely ineffective due to the presence of a body.
It's not even an interpretation... It's said as far back as in the original Fate/Stay Night that the consumption of Souls as Magical Energy is a ''prerrogative of Spiritual Beings'' and similar beings, like the very beast the Seventh Scripture was made out of, a Unicorn IIRC,
Yes, but in these cases it was mentioned as a form of sustenance for them, and not that if something ever tried to eat them, they'd get too many memories and get screwed over.
something along those lines. Darnic, from his interaction with Servants, developed a way to consume the souls - was it as life force/od/magical energy? does the human body count as a ''Dying Agent" for magical energy? did he forgot magical energy is dyed by the place it's stored, also known since FSN, said by RIn? - but it was risky and basically asking for something to go wrong given he was a living human and the Soul and Body exist as two complementary parts
The only straightforward thing that seems to be ignored is that the process requires Kiara's Code Cast before the whole Beast thing, and Code Casts are computer programs, not material objects.

It was repeated ad nauseaum that ''only one person'' ever understood the Soul, also. Many things around this topic may very well be wrong, we even have two descriiptions of the ''relationship between the soul and the body'' that are one the opposite of the other..
Nothing here really proves that your interpretation is more logically sound than the simpler one where we accept what the statements say. You've essentially just said "codecasts are computer programs not material objects" which is true but irrelevant, especially when they affect the soul and such due to how the mooncell works.

The closest thing to decent evidence you've given is the fact that there are in fact, two opposite descriptions to the protection relationship between the body and soul, however, this both doesn't support your argument, and the second one (one we aren't using) is less commonly supported in the franchise.
Why are you creating such a round-about way of talking about this ''type of attack/defense'', that is not even necessary in the first place, because the Nasuverse has Conceptual Weapons, that include exactly things that affect the Soul in it's scope?
It's not really roundabout, it's simply saying that the origin rounds being able to affect the soul does not, at all, support you, it simply means they can affect the soul, they're considered conceptual weapons anyway if that makes it better for you.
Or better yet, give me one clear example of the Soul being targetted and this attack failing because of the Body or the Mind/Brain.
7th Holy Scripture, Kiara, etc
The only thing anywhere near this is like Material Bodies being the preference in Servant fights because without them their Cores are ''exposed'' (and wouldn't be correct because they still have Spiritual Bodies when exposed like this), but I believe you are talking about Humans/Magus, not Servants.
The servant thing is indeed not important here. Although one could argue them only having a spirit form and core when not using a body does in fact, show that their material body is protecting their soul, as the spiritual body does quite literally nothing in this regard
 

Antvasima

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So what is left to do here, other than what I accepted earlier?
 

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I have unlocked the pages in question.

Tell me here when you are done.
 
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