About Yang vs Inasa and determining if it's a stomp

[MilesTheMorales1]

A recent vs battle was closed, unjustly in my opinion. Long story short, this fight between Yang vs Inasa was closed recently because of two people out of 17 who started declaring the fight a stomp. Two people. Keep in mind that one of these two were actively vouching on a character winning(among others) before declaring it a stomp and promptly notifying a mod before it could be added to their profiles.

We have already debunked this notion that this is a stomp, but I and others have gone through their other contributions anyway, and we have noticed a pattern with this specific individual where they declare matches stomps in order to not show up as a loss on their favorite characters. This individual is not the only one who does this, people have admitted to doing this deliberately. This isn't okay. I feel that we should either unlock the thread right now, or add it to their respective profiles.

this was my suggestion before changing my mind:

A stomp vote.

The only way to prevent a minority of two from silencing nearly 20 people who say otherwise is to let people vote. The rule of stomps not being added to profiles should stay in effect, but if the community can determine the characters who win in a fight, we should then also be able to determine how badly a character beats another.

Tl;Dr: Let us vote on stomps, there should be no room for bias from one person to affect a decisive match.

I hope we can learn from this moving forward and not have bias influence stomp threads from now on.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The issue with this is someone could just as easily bebiaset against a certain character, verse, or even another user and just vote against them because of that

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

The issue with this is someone could just as easily bebiaset against a certain character, verse, or even another user and just vote against them because of that

That's the whole point of making it a vote. If they're very obviously shown to be biased, you call them out for it and debate their reasonings. Otherwise, if this person were, let's say a content mod, your opinion wouldn't matter, and they can just close the thread at any time. they can convince an admin they're close with to end the thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay, let me give an example, say someone makes a match between Batman and Light Yagami, a direct fight with no people time under standard battle condition. By our stomp rules this would be a stomp match because even though Light CAN kill batman via the death note there is no viable scenario in which he would be able to as batman dominated him in a fight any day of the week. However under your proposal if someone decides that this match is fair they can get people who will just agree with them or who favor batman over light or who dislike death note to just agree that it's not a stomp, which completely invalidates the rules laid out by the staff and favoring majority rules over accuracy.

 

[The_Calaca]

I mean, if the mod doesn't revise the thread he should be notified in case it's not a stomp.

 

[Jinx666]

I agree that stomp threads are called on extremely commonly. In the Inasa vs Yang case, Weekly as the one in question was in fact arguing Yang would win quite decisively before others stepped in on Inasa's part. Then once Inasa was winning, went in for it being a stomp, as well as not the first time this has been done.

While i see their point, Yang does of course have a viable win con like they were so confident in addressing. Yang isn't new to wind manip since dust uses that, and once her Semblance is strong enough she can withstand Inasa's winds against her like she did with Flynt Coal (While he was using sound, there was still an active force she was overcoming against her motion) to get close. Her one shot capability is of course still a factor also, and she is a well rounded and experienced fighter, id say more so than Inasa.

She held multiple advantages and did have win cons. Ergo its not a stomp. Weekly had a lot to argue for Yang winning, but suddenly called it stomp. These can be seen as hypocritical. I also disagree that 2 people against a far larger amount saying it wasn't a stomp isn't democracy to say the least.

I'd also like to say that while bias can be clear, and bandwagon votes can sometimes interfere, this is usually more to the RWBY side on this wiki more than anything, and was what was going to let Yang win initially before the tides turned on that thread. Unless something can be done about that problem in general, its not like it was some uneven playing field.

I would prefer we give Inasa the win in all fairness, instead of ruling worthy matchups stomps after many many posts arguing the exact opposite side beforehand. and perhaps rework the FRA system if people are generally worried about bandwagon voting

Also the Batman vs Light example doent really match as one is through literal death hax that are dependent on a certain factor unlike the thread Yang vs Inasa in question.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Jinx You are aware that there is no rule against people changing their minds regarding who they think would win in a vs thread right?

And no, the BAtman vs Light example matches the Yang vs Inasa one perfectly as Yang can instakill with one punch but there is no scenario in which she would be abl to viably do so as her opponent dominates her in combat and he would not ever just sit there and allow her to do something that would kill him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also it was already explained that Yang has never dealt with wind attacks before, which she hasnt, and Inasa can just fly away to wait out the few seconds that her semblance lasts.

And no, if anything there is a bias AGAINST Rwby here.

 

[RatherClueless]

I mean, just talking about the Light vs Batman example (assuming Light has his DN, a pen and knows Bruce's name), it wouldn't be a stomp. since:

"Both characters have several methods of winning, including options that allow them to win instantly. However, one character can reliably use/activate their winning move(s) first."

For as long as there is a wincon (even if it's not reliably usable or even never usable for that matter), it's not a stomp.

 

[BakiHanma18]

To speak on the matter, every time I asked about a viable win condition for Yang, the only response I got was "Inasa might make a mistake" despite the fact that there is no indication of that character making mistakes often. That condition is so negligible I don't believe it can be considered viable at all

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Regarding BakiHanma's observation, the only way for that not to be a viable wincon would be to assume Inasa makes no mistakes. This is a no-limits fallacy. We have to include the possibility of Inasa getting caught off guard just once for a split second, ending up getting tagged resulting in a one-shot. Not to mention, the only reason Yang isn't stomping Inasa right now is because the OP of that match changed the conditions to speed equalization, where otherwise Yang could not only outrun Inasa's wind but power through it.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Also it was already explained that Yang has never dealt with wind attacks before, which she hasnt, and Inasa can just fly away to wait out the few seconds that her semblance lasts.
And no, if anything there is a bias AGAINST Rwby here.

May I ask who in this thread or the other is anyone biased against rwby? Was it those who voted Inasa from the beginning of the thread? Was it the people who initially voted Yang but changed their mind? Or was it the people who debunked the misconception that Yang doesn't use physical ammunition?

Do not misconstrue this as a personal insult towards you, but it appears to me that you lack awareness of your own bias for RWBY. Other users have pointed out that this isn't an isolated incident of you declaring RWBY's decisive losing threads as stomps, and despite the fact that there were a fair amount of people voting for both sides, you now declare that the thread is biased against the show?

Cmon now.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean, just talking about the Light vs Batman example (assuming Light has his DN, a pen and knows Bruce's name), it wouldn't be a stomp. since:

"Both characters have several methods of winning, including options that allow them to win instantly. However, one character can reliably use/activate their winning move(s) first."

For as long as there is a wincon (even if it's not reliably usable or even never usable for that matter), it's not a stomp.

Except Light cant because that would require him to either ask batman his identity, figure out batmans identity in a few seconds before he gets his skull punched in, or make the shinigami eyes trade which he would never, ever do in character. Ergo its a stomp.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Regarding BakiHanma's observation, the only way for that not to be a viable wincon would be to assume Inasa makes no mistakes. This is a no-limits fallacy. We have to include the possibility of Inasa getting caught off guard just once for a split second, ending up getting tagged resulting in a one-shot. Not to mention, the only reason Yang isn't stomping Inasa right now is because the OP of that match changed the conditions to speed equalization, where otherwise Yang could not only outrun Inasa's wind but power through it.

The battlefield was a clear open field, there is nothing for Yang to use to be able to catch him off guard.

Speed equalization means nothing in determining stomps

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Let's not make this a Batman vs Light thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Let's not make this a Batman vs Light thread.

Then lets not focus on this being a Yang vs Inasa thread either

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

The battlefield was a clear open field, there is nothing for Yang to use to be able to catch him off guard.

Speed equalization means nothing in determining stomps

Again, no limits fallacy is at play here. You can't just say there is ZERO possibility for mistakes on Inasa's end, you're mistaking viability with probability.

also,

One character has more ways to win than the other, but the other character wins more times than not due to matchup specifics that allow/cause them to use their winning move(s) immediately. - Stomp Thread page examples of decisive/non stomps
This is what the thread in question is. Speed Equalizing is a matchup specific that causes Yang to not speed blitz, outrun Inasa's wind or simply power through it. That's three whole wincons that are tossed out the window due to speed not being a part of this match.
That alone makes this decisive, along with the (admittedly unlikely but still possible) wincon she already has.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Let's not make this a Batman vs Light thread.

Then lets not focus on this being a Yang vs Inasa thread either

This is a false equivalence because the Yang v Inasa thread is why this one exists, and is one of the main topics at hand.

That being said, I change my mind. Talk about Batman vs Light all you want if it helps your argument.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Regarding BakiHanma's observation, the only way for that not to be a viable wincon would be to assume Inasa makes no mistakes. This is a no-limits fallacy. We have to include the possibility of Inasa getting caught off guard just once for a split second, ending up getting tagged resulting in a one-shot. Not to mention, the only reason Yang isn't stomping Inasa right now is because the OP of that match changed the conditions to speed equalization, where otherwise Yang could not only outrun Inasa's wind but power through it.

But in fairness, isn't it just as likely for Yang to make a mistake? If both characters can make a mistake, which they can, that negates the viability of that as a win con

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Miles Okay then, like i asked in the other thread, name one instance in which Inasa could possibly make a mistake

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

But in fairness, isn't it just as likely for Yang to make a mistake? If both characters can make a mistake, which they can, that negates the viability of that as a win con

I don't see how this would cancel out. Yang is probably more likely to mess up than Inasa, but it doesn't negate the possibility of the wincon.

In other words, it's more likely for Inasa to win against Yang, but the odds of Inasa winning doesn't rule out every chance Yang has. That's why this is a decisive fight and not a stomp, like if Robin fought Perfect Cell or Jiren where he would have no chance of even tagging them in a real fight, let alone dealing damage.

 

[BakiHanma18]

But in fairness, isn't it just as likely for Yang to make a mistake? If both characters can make a mistake, which they can, that negates the viability of that as a win con

I don't see how this would cancel out. Yang is probably more likely to mess up than Inasa, but it doesn't negate the possibility of the wincon.
In other words, it's more likely for Inasa to win against Yang, but the odds of Inasa winning doesn't rule out every chance Yang has. That's why this is a decisive fight and not a stomp, like if Robin fought Perfect Cell or Jiren where he would have no chance of even tagging them in a real fight, let alone dealing damage.

To begin with, the odds of one of them messing up is negligible to begin with, but if they both have roughly an equal chance of messing up, that means while either of them COULD mess up, Inasa is still able to range spam. Inasa messing up is a win con for Yang, but it is in no way viable

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Again, a wincon that relies solely on the luck of a more skilled opponent making an unlikely mistake is not a viable wincon

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, someone said "Content Mod" despite the fact that Content Mods can't close threads. They can lock profiles, but it's Discussion Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats that can close threads.

As for the thread in question, it is heavily case by case on what does or doesn't contribute to a stomp. I do agree with Weekly that Batman Vs Light Yagami would be considered a stomp. Reason is because Light needs to know Batman's real name, which SBA heavily suggests he doesn't. Plus, Batman would blitz and oneshot him before Light even has a chance to right down his name. Plus, Batman doesn't have to wait 40 seconds for Light to die unlike Light needing to wait for Batman.

However, decisive victories and stomps are two widely different things. If character A is only moderately stronger, faster, and smarter all at once, then character B could at least put up a decent fight before going down, it's decisive. A stomp is either where character B is 100% incapable of ending character A whether via knock out or death or if Character A doesn't just KO but obliterates character B.

I'm neutral regarding some of the other examples, but just a reminder. It's important if both sides staff and non staff try to remain civil.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Thank you Medeus

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

I was the one who said "content mod," my apologies. It's fixed now.

 

[Overlord775]

Voting for a stomp shouldn't be a thing because it would allow people to spite on a character and add completly unfair matches as losses

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Btw as a heads up, I can't be here all the time to debate every point because of school, so my apologies if it takes me a while to respond to an argument.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Voting for a stomp shouldn't be a thing because it would allow people to spite on a character and add completly unfair matches as losses

That was addressed in my OP, consider rereading it. I specifically said that "The rule of stomps not being added to profiles should stay in effect."

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That was addressed in my OP, consider rereading it. I specifically said that "The rule of stomps not being added to profiles should stay in effect."

But thats just it, what youre proposing is that people can vote to say that a stomp match isnt a stomp and then get it added

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

But thats just it, what youre proposing is that people can vote to say that a stomp match isnt a stomp and then get it added

If the community votes that it's not a stomp, then that's how it will be treated: not a stomp. More often than not, stomp matches are agreed upon by the community, and if you disagree with a match outcome, that's what CRT is for.

 

[First_Witch]

Don'tTalk made a similar thread regarding this topic. His proposal was that if the verdict of a long and drawn out debate was that A stomps B then this match should still be added as a valid match. Its not obviously a stomp if you can manage to debate for a extremly long time.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If the community votes that it's not a stomp, then that's how it will be treated: not a stomp. More often than not, stomp matches are agreed upon by the community, and if you disagree with a match outcome, that's what CRT is for.

And again, this is just asking for people to spite threads by getting stomps added to pages

 

[Overlord775]

^

 

[BakiHanma18]

For example, when I argue a character that I know well, I like to discuss and run through all possible win cons to check if they are viable. Only after discussing all possibilities and still getting shut down do I concede something is a stomp, as that literally what a stomp is: a match where one character has no actual chance against another

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yeah we've been getting more than our fair share of spite matches until recently as well as potentially controversial matches that usually ends up branching out into CRTs that in turn leads to circular arguments which in turn leads to frustration that turns into ad hominems/poisoning the well and when "all" is say and done some folks forget (or ignore) what actually sparked the debate in the first place; i.e was the original match between character A Vs character B a stomp?.

Ofc closing a VS thread just because a minority cried foul isn't fair nor productive however this is too broad of a subject to add more regulations/rules which might do more harm than good in the future (due to the subjective nature of fiction), as others have said already we have to evaluate each VS thread on a case by case process (decide if it's a stomp or not) I know it's not the quickest way however from the other processes that have been suggested now (and in the past), it all leads to encouraging potential spite/stomps in future matches.

That's just my two cents.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I agree that Vs matches should be case by case. Adding a separate voting system for stomps just incites even more people to spite the characters/verses.

Ionliosite would literally spam "stomp" for every single mha battle where they might win. I don't feel like dealing with that, nor does anyone else.

If someone can just differentiate a stomp vs a decisive win, that should be enough. That's seems to be the main issue presented here honestly.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

If someone argues that a character wins, then turns around and tries to argue that the match was a stomp from the beginning, you should be able to argue against them to prove why the match should stay. It can be quite obvious to see when someone has truly changed their stance from "on x characters side" to "can't let x have a loss."

The point shouldn't be to get something on a character's profile anyway, it should be to determine who wins the fight. If an opponents stance changes because you proved your stance was better, pat yourself on the back. Just means their arguments and information were flimsy or worse than your own from the start, and they now recognize it.

 

[The_Calaca]

That's the standard procedure. If someone is trying to pull the stomp card, that's easily debunkable.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah I agree with King