About Reimu's Defense.

[Andykhang]

We have much information about her attack potency, but surprisingly little information about her defense, which is suppose to be her specialty. Ignoring the "Fantasy Heaven could ignore even a tier 0 with it effect" NLF (and Fantasy Heaven in general), just how strong is her barrier and defense, especially when she's serious? I personally think it could be at least as strong as the Netherworld's barrier.

 

[Yamatohime]

Her duplex barriers are her strongest ones. And they barely able to hold the Master Spark as far as I remember. So her current durability based on her barriers is good (Country+).

Netherwold barrier is probably much stronger compared to Reimu's but it vulnerable to somebody with knowledge about barriers.

 

[Andykhang]

^Is it though? All of her barrier she showed are only in Spell Card rule. Meaning while Marisa would be serious (in the limit of the Spell Card) in using the Master Spark, Reimu, combine with her tendency to not be serious, would have held back a lot with her strength. Also, if the Netherworld barrier could be easily broken by her like that, she would think about making a barrier that could deal with someone else like her while it could still stand against normal brute force one (kind of like a Hacker making a firewall strong enough to not be hacked back) (unless she's really lazy however)

 

[Yamatohime]

Also, if the Netherworld barrier could be easily broken by her like that, she would think about making a barrier that could deal with someone else like her while it could still stand against normal brute force one (kind of like a Hacker making a firewall strong enough to not be hacked back) (unless she's really lazy however)

You comparison is lacking. In Reimu's situation she has a key to open the door but in hacking it means backdoor - you just bypass all defenses via hole. Reimu can patch up her own backdoors but it won't help versus brute force attack.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Since when was it stated that her Duplex Barriers could barely hold up against Marisa's Final Spark? Just curious

 

[Aurugermil]

Yeah, it would be better to have the source of that feats.

All I kind find is unrelated description where Reimu has spell card Dream Land "Super Duplex Barrier" .

"Humans rely too much on what they see. Reimu's borders defy common sense. Have you ever experienced something like however you try to approach to Reimu, she goes more further? That's what Duplex Border does."

Though I would prefer to discuss about Reimu's Fantasy Nature.

 

[Andykhang]

^ It's heavily suffer from NLF i stated above, since Reality is a thing and a law all of us living with and depend on with, from tier 12 to tier 0. Stated that one float above Reality is like saying one live outside of the law that pretty much everything follow, but replace that with the fundamental law of the universe.

 

[Andykhang]

Also, if the Netherworld barrier could be easily broken by her like that, she would think about making a barrier that could deal with someone else like her while it could still stand against normal brute force one (kind of like a Hacker making a firewall strong enough to not be hacked back) (unless she's really lazy however)

You comparison is lacking. In Reimu's situation she has a key to open the door but in hacking it means backdoor - you just bypass all defenses via hole. Reimu can patch up her own backdoors but it won't help versus brute force attack.

What she have is a equivalent of a Master Key though, which would be considered a brute force attack.

 

[Promestein]

Reimu's defense with Fantasy Nature is not really something quantifiable.

She just 'floats away'. She's not shielding herself. Still, any character with good Multi-Universal range would probably be able to catch her. She's just floating away from the reality of one to a few universes at best (depending on the mechanisms of gap things and Sakuya's parallel worlds).

Until she shows a better feat in regards to that, that is the best she is capable of avoiding with Fantasy Nature.

 

[Andykhang]

^feat wise, i guess i could agree with that. She would be even more terrifying if we agree to NLF stated above otherwise.

Still, ignoring the Reality of even 1 Universe could mean she ignoring the law of the 6th dimensional universe that others live in, and would put her right in tier 1. But that should be in another post.

 

[Promestein]

"Still, ignoring the Reality of even 1 Universe could mean she ignoring the law of the 6th dimension universe that others live in, and would put her right in tier 1. But that should be in another post."

Hahahahaha no.

She's not. That sounds like wanking. She's moving away - on a three to four dimensional level - from the reality of one (or a few) universes. Even if it was more, it wouldn't at all translate to AP. It doesn't even translate to conventional durability - it's a matter of range, not durability or tanking.

 

[Andykhang]

^Yeah, that why i don't want to talk about that anymore. Discuss about that would be really pointless and beside the point (which is Reimu's "conventional" defense).

So, how is your said about this?

 

[Aurugermil]

I am actually on the same wavelength with Andykhang. It is kind of Avalon from Fate series, except I don't think that it means she float to another universe or a higher dimension. It is more like she float into void/nothingness/yog-sothoth sleeping bed, etc.

Zun said it is the ultimate mystery, when Reimu use this, no one can ever beat her. (It means not Yorihime and Toyohime the Mary-Sue Lunarians, not even Yukari who can manipulates boundary or even Dragon god.)

She doesn't need to shield herself since she float away from beyond the concept of Reality, law of physics, multiverse or dimension.

Taken from Imperishable Night Last Words:

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ÒééÒüùÒüôÒéîÒüîÚüèÒü│´╝êµÖéÚûôÕêÂÚÖÉõ╗ÿÒüì）ÒüºÒü¬ÒüæÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÞ¬░ÒééÕïØÒüñõ║ïÒüîÕç║µØÑÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

Supreme Master-Arts by any means. With Reimu's ability to float, she floats from everything in reality and becomes invincible.

If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her with any method.

Taken from various e-mailed ZUN answers from the various guy who e-mailed him:

Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü«ÒÇîþ®║ÒéÆÚúøÒüÂþ¿ïÕ║ªÒü«Þâ¢ÕèøÒÇìÒü»µûçÕ¡ùÚÇÜÒéèÒü«ÚúøÞíîÞâ¢ÕèøÒü«õ╗ûÒü½ÒÇîõ¢òÞÇàÒü½Òééþ©øÒéëÒéîÒü¬ÒüäÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåµäÅÕæ│ÒééÕɽÒéÇÒÇé

The ability to fly means "not be tied to anything" in addition to the literal flight capability. This means that gravity, pressure, force, etc has no meaning to her.

þø©µëïÒüîÒü®ÒéôÒü¬Òü½Õ╝ÀÕñºÒüáÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÒééÒÇüÕ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü«ÕëìÒüºÒü»µäÅÕæ│ÒéÆÒü¬ÒüòÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

No matter how powerful her opponents is, it does not matter to her. (Something along that with Bing translator)

Òü¥Òüƒ『ÚªÖÚ£ûÕáé』ÒüºÒü»ÒÇîþë®Òü«õ¥íÕÇñÒü¿ÒüäÒü嵪éÕ┐ÁÒüîþäíÒüäÒÇìÒü¿Þ®òÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéï

Kourindo said anything have no concept of value to her. (in this state, or something along that with Bing translator)

Òü¥ÒüƒÒÇüõ©Çþ¿«Òü«þó║þÄçµôìõ¢£ÒééÞ║½Òü½ÒüñÒüæÒüªÒüèÒéèÒÇüÞ│¢Òü«þø«ÒéÆÕñëÒüêÒéïþ¡ëÒü«þó║þÄçµôìõ¢£þ¡ëÒéÆÞíîÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéï´╝êÒüôÒéîÒü»Þç¬ÕêåÒü«µäÅÕ┐ùÒüºµôìõ¢£ÕÅ»Þâ¢）ÒÇé

Reimu herself is not well aware of this power (it is the same with moving her arms or legs). Also when she uses this, she is able to knowingly manipulate probabilty (such as changing the dice roll, etc)


Yeah, this ability is still undeveloped well too because it is a mysterious ability and Reimu lacks training.

In conclusion of these whole evindence, I would agree with Promestein. She already explained about how it lacks of any feats to destroy timeline, dimension etc and it doesn't translate to her AP and dura (yet, since Touhou is not about powerlevel, but about a bunch of girls that play danmaku and drink tea together) but more about range. Also the tiering system for 1-A is clear enough in this site which stated:

"Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."

I think if Reimu uses this ability, only 1-A and above can defeat her while Reimu still retains most of her stats beside range. Last things, ZUN said PC-98 Reimu is the same person as Windows Reimu.

 

[Andykhang]

"Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."

True that, but law also mean to what extend could people do too, so i still think about that possibility.

Again, off track, remember? Again, If she is serious (without using FH-mode), just how much do you think she can tank? If you think about how she could mess even the Hakurei barrier, her defense should at least be compare with it.

 

[Aurugermil]

Yes, I agree with that possibility. It probably translates to her shot can bypass durability since her shot ignores the laws of physics. Well, if we are back in the track of her regular defense, I kinda agree with your reasoning too. She can manage the border of makai really well but I think we need to wait for Yamatohime to provide the source of information about that Master Sparks.

Every Touhou characters from IaMP also fought against Suika and Suika is capable to destroy the moon easily, maybe moon level? Or that's probably not how it works.

All I can provide is a minor description of spell card Duplex Barrier from Grimoire of Marisa.

õ©ìµÇØÞ¡░Òü¬ÕèøÒüºþ®║ÚûôÒüîÞúÅÞ┐öÒéïÒé╣ÒâÜÒâ½Òé½Òâ╝Òâë

A spell card with a mysterious power that turns space inside-out.

ÒüéÒü«þÁÉþòîÒüºÕø▓Òü¥ÒéîÒüƒþ®║ÚûôÒüîÒüéÒéîÒü░ÒÇüþºüÒü«Ú¡öµ│òÒééÕ╣àÒüîÕ║âÒüÅÒü¬ÒéïÒü«ÒüáÒüîÒÇé

If an area is enclosed in that border, my magic's range also widens.

Ú£èÕñóÒü½ÒüØÒéîÒü¿Òü¬ÒüÅÞü×ÒüäÒüƒÒüîÞªüÚáÿÒéÆÕ¥ùÒü¬ÒüäÒÇéþÁÉþòîÒü¿Òü»þë®õ║ïÒü«Õóâþø«ÒüáÒüØÒüåÒüáÒüîÒÇüÒüØÒéîÒüîõ║îÚçìÒü½Òü¬ÒéïÒü¿ÒüäÒüåõ║ïÒü»ÕóâþòîÒü«þäíÒüäõ©ûþòîÒü¿ÕÉîÒüÿÒüáÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÒÇéõ¢òÕçªÒü½ÒüºÒééµ¢£ÒéÇþ®║ÚûôÒü«ÚÜÖÚûôÒéÆÞªïÒüñÒüæÒéëÒéîÒéîÒü░ÒÇüõ║îÚçìÒü«þÁÉþòîÒéÆÕ╝ÁÒéîÒéïÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇé

I indirectly asked Reimu about it but it was pointless. In this border affects everything within the lines, and with two borders, it's as if there were no border at all. If you can find a gap somewhere in this space, two borders will cover it up.

 

[Andykhang]

^But even Marisa's Master Spark can't put a dent to the Netherworld barrier. And Reimu destroy it with ease...

Also, If I remember correctly, what Suika destroy isn't the moon itself, but rather the illusion of the moon as it painted on the "ceiling" create by the Heaven.

 

[Andykhang]

So, what's your opinion?

 

[Aurugermil]

I don't know, if it is dismantling the makai barrier, it would probably means having the same ability to recreate the same type of barrier. If it is just destroying the makai barrier, it means Reimu probably can't recreate the same type of barrier.

 

[Andykhang]

^That's like saying the hacker with enough equipment to destroy a security doesn't have enough to recreate that same security... which make sense anyway. Make even more sense with Reimu's lazyness.

 

[Andykhang]

Restarting the thread.

It's stated that Reimu ignored Gravity. Because Gravity is a curvature of space-time, could it be that she ignored space-time itself and it effect? (like, the least, be able to escape a black hole with ease)


Edit: Opps, wrong subject. I'll make another thread about this.

 

[Andykhang]

I am actually on the same wavelength with Andykhang. It is kind of Avalon from Fate series, except I don't think that it means she float to another universe or a higher dimension. It is more like she float into void/nothingness/yog-sothoth sleeping bed, etc.
Zun said it is the ultimate mystery, when Reimu use this, no one can ever beat her. (It means not Yorihime and Toyohime the Mary-Sue Lunarians, not even Yukari who can manipulates boundary or even Dragon god.)

She doesn't need to shield herself since she float away from beyond the concept of Reality, law of physics, multiverse or dimension.

Taken from Imperishable Night Last Words:

Þë▓ÒÇàÒü¿þ®ÂµÑÁÕÑÑþ¥®ÒÇéÚ£èÕñóÒü»ÒüéÒéèÒü¿ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëÕ«ÖÒü½µÁ«ÒüìþäíµòÁÒü¿Òü¬ÒéïÒÇé

ÒééÒüùÒüôÒéîÒüîÚüèÒü│´╝êµÖéÚûôÕêÂÚÖÉõ╗ÿÒüì）ÒüºÒü¬ÒüæÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÞ¬░ÒééÕïØÒüñõ║ïÒüîÕç║µØÑÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

Supreme Master-Arts by any means. With Reimu's ability to float, she floats from everything in reality and becomes invincible.

If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her with any method.

Taken from various e-mailed ZUN answers from the various guy who e-mailed him:

Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü«ÒÇîþ®║ÒéÆÚúøÒüÂþ¿ïÕ║ªÒü«Þâ¢ÕèøÒÇìÒü»µûçÕ¡ùÚÇÜÒéèÒü«ÚúøÞíîÞâ¢ÕèøÒü«õ╗ûÒü½ÒÇîõ¢òÞÇàÒü½Òééþ©øÒéëÒéîÒü¬ÒüäÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåµäÅÕæ│ÒééÕɽÒéÇÒÇé

The ability to fly means "not be tied to anything" in addition to the literal flight capability. This means that gravity, pressure, force, etc has no meaning to her.

þø©µëïÒüîÒü®ÒéôÒü¬Òü½Õ╝ÀÕñºÒüáÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÒééÒÇüÕ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü«ÕëìÒüºÒü»µäÅÕæ│ÒéÆÒü¬ÒüòÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

No matter how powerful her opponents is, it does not matter to her. (Something along that with Bing translator)

Òü¥Òüƒ『ÚªÖÚ£ûÕáé』ÒüºÒü»ÒÇîþë®Òü«õ¥íÕÇñÒü¿ÒüäÒü嵪éÕ┐ÁÒüîþäíÒüäÒÇìÒü¿Þ®òÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéï

Kourindo said anything have no concept of value to her. (in this state, or something along that with Bing translator)

Òü¥ÒüƒÒÇüõ©Çþ¿«Òü«þó║þÄçµôìõ¢£ÒééÞ║½Òü½ÒüñÒüæÒüªÒüèÒéèÒÇüÞ│¢Òü«þø«ÒéÆÕñëÒüêÒéïþ¡ëÒü«þó║þÄçµôìõ¢£þ¡ëÒéÆÞíîÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéï´╝êÒüôÒéîÒü»Þç¬ÕêåÒü«µäÅÕ┐ùÒüºµôìõ¢£ÕÅ»Þâ¢）ÒÇé

Reimu herself is not well aware of this power (it is the same with moving her arms or legs). Also when she uses this, she is able to knowingly manipulate probabilty (such as changing the dice roll, etc)


Yeah, this ability is still undeveloped well too because it is a mysterious ability and Reimu lacks training.

In conclusion of these whole evindence, I would agree with Promestein. She already explained about how it lacks of any feats to destroy timeline, dimension etc and it doesn't translate to her AP and dura (yet, since Touhou is not about powerlevel, but about a bunch of girls that play danmaku and drink tea together) but more about range. Also the tiering system for 1-A is clear enough in this site which stated:

"Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."

I think if Reimu uses this ability, only 1-A and above can defeat her while Reimu still retains most of her stats beside range. Last things, ZUN said PC-98 Reimu is the same person as Windows Reimu.

Can i ask where did you get this? I want to know as reference

 

[Aurugermil]

From the internet.

 

[Andykhang]

^from where, exactly?

 

[Aurugermil]

From various japanese site that discuss touhou, though I didn't save the link of them.

 

[Andykhang]

various,eh... that's going to be tough. You could see the links from the history though.