• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

A Piccolo Moon destroying calc is way overdue by now!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hagane_no_Saiyajin

Hagane_no_Saiyajin

6,428
1,184
Since the old calc got removed, we've been just using at least 5-C for Piccolo, Goku, etc. I've tried making calc requests for the feat but not one has answered the call. So I made this thread to discuss what Piccolo's AP is and to possibly get a new calc up as soon as possible! Piccolo can't really be going calc-less for this long!
 
Without the visuals of the anime or any evidence of pieces of it being launched, the moon was pulverized and the GBE overcome, thid togehter is less than, like, 0.1% above baseline.
 
He didn't make a blog for it, it was just a comment. He asked why not use the mass of the moon and also use the escape velocity of the moon in the KE calculator. This would result in 2.0794E+29 J. Still Moon level, but better than baseline.
 
Thelastmlg said:
We can only use escape velocity as a bare minimun IF we have any object that could be pieces of the moon flying
Click to expand...
This, and there's none in the manga, only reason we could even use Piccolo's blast speed from the anime is because that is the only aspect of the moonbusting feat that is a 1:1 replica of the beam in the manga.

The moon itself blowing up is anime-exclusive.
 
Thelastmlg said:
We can only use escape velocity as a bare minimun IF we have any object that could be pieces of the moon flying
Click to expand...
And that object can't be part of the moon, otherwise you have to subtract its mass from the moons before calculating escape velocity. (which also gets harder if the moon isn't spherical at that point)
 
Shatter just means it fragmented it; though Roshi's feat still requires bypassing the GBE but I wouldn't use the Super Kamahameha description as opposed to an on screen feat.
 
Uhhh, so, this is probably a newb question but why is this even a thing?


Effectively confirmed in lore, and accepted by the fandom, that piccolo destroying the moon isn't even a canon feet.

An interview with a developer and Akira Toriyama basically says the sub-stories wont be considered part of canon unless he writes them, but everything else will be.

This is part of the main story, so this is canon. I'm just sayin' collateral damage during the fighting does NOT support moon level.

Special beam cannon tore a chunk, only a chunk, out of a mountain, and it showed that for shock factor, I think multiplying that power by hundreds of thousands of times is a little suspect. Considering we are going from proven mountain or large mountain level feats and skipping straight to across, island, large island, small country, country, large country, continent, multi-continent levels straight to moon level. We should probably be fairly careful

I'm putting special emphasis on the fact that THE ANIME ITSELF put special emphasis on the exact amount of power the special beam cannon had by showing a mountain with a hole in it as collateral damage.

Not only that, but considering that jackie chun destroyed the moon in dragonball (episode 28), and tenshinhan who is considered possibly large building level might have won 30 episodes later?

33 meters would be a fair sized building, made of rock? a very sturdy building.

Unfortunately, it makes more sense in context, that the moon actually IS 33 meters, or of comparable size. Considering the shocking feat of drilling out what probably amounts to maybe a kilometers worth of rock was their shock factor for the special beam cannon.


Also, special beam cannon shows a power level of 1400ish while master roshi was supposedly at 175-180 for his moon busting feat. HOWEVER, master roshi also uses this powered up form (his normal form is 139)

If the moon was 33 meters across it would make a hell of a lot more sense to go, OH SHIT, THIS BIG ASS MOUNTAIN HAS A HOLE IN IT, LOOK HOW POWERFUL PICCOLOS NEW MOVE IS!!!!!



It may just be me, but I don't trust anything that comes out of a characters mouth, king kai said it was impossible to beat freiza. Characters thoughts and feelings on a subject doesn't change the reality of it, if it did, goku would have lost. Literally every anime has that, OH GOD IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, and then it gets done. Dramatized musings from the peanut gallery shouldn't be taken as fact.
 
This was already discussed so many times and always the same. But calling Piccolo's feat an illusion contradicts everything; like how would the illusion last when he dies in his fight with Raditz considered Vegeta struggled to find the moon and King Kai outright saying he can't find it because Piccolo destroyed it. And way too many false equivalencies to argue against King Kai; his statement regarding the moon being destroyed is very reliable and Toriyama clearly forgot about the plot of his original work when he worked on that game.
 
zmikez said:
Uhhh, so, this is probably a newb question but why is this even a thing?


Effectively confirmed in lore, and accepted by the fandom, that piccolo destroying the moon isn't even a canon feet.

An interview with a developer and Akira Toriyama basically says the sub-stories wont be considered part of canon unless he writes them, but everything else will be.

This is part of the main story, so this is canon. I'm just sayin' collateral damage during the fighting does NOT support moon level.

Special beam cannon tore a chunk, only a chunk, out of a mountain, and it showed that for shock factor, I think multiplying that power by hundreds of thousands of times is a little suspect. Considering we are going from proven mountain or large mountain level feats and skipping straight to across, island, large island, small country, country, large country, continent, multi-continent levels straight to moon level. We should probably be fairly careful

I'm putting special emphasis on the fact that THE ANIME ITSELF put special emphasis on the exact amount of power the special beam cannon had by showing a mountain with a hole in it as collateral damage.

Not only that, but considering that jackie chun destroyed the moon in dragonball (episode 28), and tenshinhan who is considered possibly large building level might have won 30 episodes later?

33 meters would be a fair sized building, made of rock? a very sturdy building.

Unfortunately, it makes more sense in context, that the moon actually IS 33 meters, or of comparable size. Considering the shocking feat of drilling out what probably amounts to maybe a kilometers worth of rock was their shock factor for the special beam cannon.


Also, special beam cannon shows a power level of 1400ish while master roshi was supposedly at 175-180 for his moon busting feat. HOWEVER, master roshi also uses this powered up form (his normal form is 139)

If the moon was 33 meters across it would make a hell of a lot more sense to go, OH SHIT, THIS BIG ASS MOUNTAIN HAS A HOLE IN IT, LOOK HOW POWERFUL PICCOLOS NEW MOVE IS!!!!!



It may just be me, but I don't trust anything that comes out of a characters mouth, king kai said it was impossible to beat freiza. Characters thoughts and feelings on a subject doesn't change the reality of it, if it did, goku would have lost. Literally every anime has that, OH GOD IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, and then it gets done. Dramatized musings from the peanut gallery shouldn't be taken as fact.
Click to expand...
Tell me this is a joke.
 
zmikez said:
Uhhh, so, this is probably a newb question but why is this even a thing?


Effectively confirmed in lore, and accepted by the fandom, that piccolo destroying the moon isn't even a canon feet.

An interview with a developer and Akira Toriyama basically says the sub-stories wont be considered part of canon unless he writes them, but everything else will be.

This is part of the main story, so this is canon. I'm just sayin' collateral damage during the fighting does NOT support moon level.

Special beam cannon tore a chunk, only a chunk, out of a mountain, and it showed that for shock factor, I think multiplying that power by hundreds of thousands of times is a little suspect. Considering we are going from proven mountain or large mountain level feats and skipping straight to across, island, large island, small country, country, large country, continent, multi-continent levels straight to moon level. We should probably be fairly careful

I'm putting special emphasis on the fact that THE ANIME ITSELF put special emphasis on the exact amount of power the special beam cannon had by showing a mountain with a hole in it as collateral damage.

Not only that, but considering that jackie chun destroyed the moon in dragonball (episode 28), and tenshinhan who is considered possibly large building level might have won 30 episodes later?

33 meters would be a fair sized building, made of rock? a very sturdy building.

Unfortunately, it makes more sense in context, that the moon actually IS 33 meters, or of comparable size. Considering the shocking feat of drilling out what probably amounts to maybe a kilometers worth of rock was their shock factor for the special beam cannon.


Also, special beam cannon shows a power level of 1400ish while master roshi was supposedly at 175-180 for his moon busting feat. HOWEVER, master roshi also uses this powered up form (his normal form is 139)

If the moon was 33 meters across it would make a hell of a lot more sense to go, OH SHIT, THIS BIG ASS MOUNTAIN HAS A HOLE IN IT, LOOK HOW POWERFUL PICCOLOS NEW MOVE IS!!!!!



It may just be me, but I don't trust anything that comes out of a characters mouth, king kai said it was impossible to beat freiza. Characters thoughts and feelings on a subject doesn't change the reality of it, if it did, goku would have lost. Literally every anime has that, OH GOD IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, and then it gets done. Dramatized musings from the peanut gallery shouldn't be taken as fact.
Click to expand...
this isnt canon to the DB Manga. also Toriyama had a araki forgot moment with the db manga
 
It's the same way with the world map though,

either you go with what you can see, which is not happening... because 33 meters.

you go with what the creator says is canon, just got told no on that one.

you go by what characters say and references like tao pai pais 2300km jump to karins tower setting the map to be roughly earth sized
or the son family home being 1000km away from satan city, which makes the world go from 40k km to around 8k to 9k km.
So that one's obviously a bust.

but since those are conflicting and unreliable as almost everyone contradicts each other constantly.



Also, saying nobody can beat him is patently false right? Supreme Kai is said to be at the level where he could beat freiza with a single punch, is king kai unaware of the supreme kais? Impossible to believe considering it was basically his direct supervisor/boss. Again, dramatized dialogue from the peanut gallery is hard to take seriously.


An average mountain has a volume of 18414 cubic kilometers
The moon has a volume of 21,968,000,000 cubic kilometers if it's the same as earth.

Why would the show even bother to show the hole in a mountain, when even if he disappeared the mountain completely it was be weaker by a factor of 1,193,005.
When you combine the fact that the original moon was destroyed by master roshi with a power level about of about 15% of the power displayed by the scouter when piccolo first used the special beam cannon.

So the display of power that's emphasized in the anime is roughly 0.002% of the power master roshi displayed near the very beginning of dragon ball? Seriously?


I guess the tried and true way of figuring out power levels is to just max it out to the highest possible, even if it's off by a factor of 50,000?



Actually.... nevermind, I just found the spider-man page that says he moves faster than the speed of light and has attack potency high enough to destroy a solar system, the more I look around, the more I see people taking idioms and meanings way out of context. 2 seconds, gimme a sec, I'll be there in a sec. All idioms.

The one example given for 2 seconds to travel 5 miles shows the trail he takes, with parabolic arcs that can show you his movement speed based upon the size of an average building and can be guessed based upon distance traveled, height reached on the jump and the acceleration due to gravity. Unless spiderman has gravity manipulation to make himself fall far faster than he should be able to, it's vastly overestimated.

lol seriously, what is this? I can't tell if this is a satire or not, someone being solar system level purely because an author didn't want a hero to be stomped into the ground like a bug because of a power difference. It just looks like people are taking everyone from plot protection for the protagonist to idioms, expressions, exaggerations or straight up off-hand commands as gospel. Hopefully someone doesn't say "Another day, another dollar" and someone assumes they make 12 cents an hour.

More looking around and I see people going to over superhuman levels for surviving 40 meter falls. Look up Vesna Vulovic or Alan Magee, hell, the guy that made top ten, james boole, was 6000 feet. These were all base humans, nothing peak, most probably not even athlete. I very seriously doubt some random flight attendant would be small building level.

I think I'm going to have to write this off as a joke. Team Four Star!!!
 
zmikez said:
It's the same way with the world map though,

either you go with what you can see, which is not happening... because 33 meters.

you go with what the creator says is canon, just got told no on that one.

you go by what characters say and references like tao pai pais 2300km jump to karins tower setting the map to be roughly earth sized
or the son family home being 1000km away from satan city, which makes the world go from 40k km to around 8k to 9k km.
So that one's obviously a bust.

but since those are conflicting and unreliable as almost everyone contradicts each other constantly.



Also, saying nobody can beat him is patently false right? Supreme Kai is said to be at the level where he could beat freiza with a single punch, is king kai unaware of the supreme kais? Impossible to believe considering it was basically his direct supervisor/boss. Again, dramatized dialogue from the peanut gallery is hard to take seriously.


An average mountain has a volume of 18414 cubic kilometers
The moon has a volume of 21,968,000,000 cubic kilometers if it's the same as earth.

Why would the show even bother to show the hole in a mountain, when even if he disappeared the mountain completely it was be weaker by a factor of 1,193,005.
When you combine the fact that the original moon was destroyed by master roshi with a power level about of about 15% of the power displayed by the scouter when piccolo first used the special beam cannon.

So the display of power that's emphasized in the anime is roughly 0.002% of the power master roshi displayed near the very beginning of dragon ball? Seriously?


I guess the tried and true way of figuring out power levels is to just max it out to the highest possible, even if it's off by a factor of 50,000?



Actually.... nevermind, I just found the spider-man page that says he moves faster than the speed of light and has attack potency high enough to destroy a solar system, the more I look around, the more I see people taking idioms and meanings way out of context. 2 seconds, gimme a sec, I'll be there in a sec. All idioms.

The one example given for 2 seconds to travel 5 miles shows the trail he takes, with parabolic arcs that can show you his movement speed based upon the size of an average building and can be guessed based upon distance traveled, height reached on the jump and the acceleration due to gravity. Unless spiderman has gravity manipulation to make himself fall far faster than he should be able to, it's vastly overestimated.

lol seriously, what is this? I can't tell if this is a satire or not, someone being solar system level purely because an author didn't want a hero to be stomped into the ground like a bug because of a power difference. It just looks like people are taking everyone from plot protection for the protagonist to idioms, expressions, exaggerations or straight up off-hand commands as gospel. Hopefully someone doesn't say "Another day, another dollar" and someone assumes they make 12 cents an hour.

More looking around and I see people going to over superhuman levels for surviving 40 meter falls. Look up Vesna Vulovic or Alan Magee, hell, the guy that made top ten, james boole, was 6000 feet. These were all base humans, nothing peak, most probably not even athlete. I very seriously doubt some random flight attendant would be small building level.

I think I'm going to have to write this off as a joke. Team Four Star!!!
Click to expand...
Sound to me that you have a problem with how we do things on the site as a whole. Make a CRT or stop complaining about it. This is basically bordering on being rule-violation worthy. Jumping the gun already without actually reading the contents of the profile.

zmikez said:
Actually.... nevermind, I just found the spider-man page that says he moves faster than the speed of light and has attack potency high enough to destroy a solar system, the more I look around, the more I see people taking idioms and meanings way out of context. 2 seconds, gimme a sec, I'll be there in a sec. All idioms.

The one example given for 2 seconds to travel 5 miles shows the trail he takes, with parabolic arcs that can show you his movement speed based upon the size of an average building and can be guessed based upon distance traveled, height reached on the jump and the acceleration due to gravity. Unless spiderman has gravity manipulation to make himself fall far faster than he should be able to, it's vastly overestimated.
Click to expand...
Somebody didn't read the calcs for his Spider-Sense and Captain Universe keys.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@zmikez is that you again YellaNinja?
Click to expand...
first time here, sorry, I think the team four star was probably out of line.

Also didn't mean to knock the system that hard, I'm somewhat aware of how hard it is to get a feel for how strong someone actually is since moving near the speed of light inside our atmosphere should destroy the planet it happens on, collateral damage is usually avoided by heroes so it's difficult to judge, it's actually the main reason I found this site. I was just frustrated from some of the things I've seen that seem to directly go against the rules and guidelines.

I'll try to stick to the rules and guidelines as well as observable facts.

KLOL506 said:
Sound to me that you have a problem with how we do things on the site as a whole. Make a CRT or stop complaining about it. This is basically bordering on being rule-violation worthy. Jumping the gun already without actually reading the contents of the profile.


Somebody didn't read the calcs for his Spider-Sense and Captain Universe keys.
Click to expand...


A jump 11 foot high would take 1 second to touch back down, based upon physics, without increasing earths gravity massively, that's two and a half seconds for less than 2 buildings of distance, let alone a couple miles.

taken directly from the rules section, spider-sense is the literal example given for things that wouldn't be accepted except in very specific circumstances.
previous knowledge of the attack/projectile's pattern will count as aim dodging unless sufficient proof to the contrary can be presented, as the attack could be dodged via prior knowledge instead of reaction. Precognition, future sight, or any ability or skill that help the character predict the attack's path beforehand in any form are also considered as "prior knowledge".

I may be missing something but anything that includes spidey sense or precognition is explicitly stated as being unusable in calcs unless under specific circumstances, if spidey sense goes off, the prior knowledge.



So, lets push this towards the rules/guidelines and dbz again because we're veering a bit off topic.

Logical fallacies in particular

Claim ~ the moon is larger than portrayed in the manga.

Burden of proof fallacy states that anyone claiming something, specifically the one who supposes there is something more than there is shown, like the moon is bigger than indicated, has the burden of proof.

Saying it's too small to be believable? argument from incredulity + appeal to probability (because it probably or might possibly be the case that the moon is larger)

Some may claim Akira Toriyama said the moon is X distance away, unfortunately that's the appeal to authority fallacy and we can dump that out as quickly as we did what he said about the moon being a projection right? I mean he was put on the spot in an interview and just said whatever came to mind. Excluding one argument while not excluding the other argument would be the special pleading fallacy.


So.... yeah. Is there an actual reason why it's considered a moon-busting feat besides the fact that it was technically a moon, even if it appears to be 30ish meters across? It would be unfortunate if the entire cast was scaled based upon the false premise and possibly the inductive fallacy.


The lack of moon busting strength is also directly supported by the fact that goku had trouble moving around in 10x gravity, he weighed 137 pounds so at that gravity, goku heavily struggled with 1370 pounds. Now, I'm not saying that's extremely weak for someone who can blow up a moon, but.... yeah, it's extremely underwhelming.

There are simply too many instances of provable weakness, in comparison to what should be, to actually believe the moon busting feat is at the level claimed and the only argument I've heard in contrast was that it was said in a press conference that the moon was X distance away. Which is appeal to authority, which is something that's frowned upon in the rules.
 
Last edited:
zmikez said:
The lack of moon busting strength is also directly supported by the fact that goku had trouble moving around in 10x gravity, he weighed 137 pounds so at that gravity, goku heavily struggled with 1370 pounds. Now, I'm not saying that's extremely weak for someone who can blow up a moon, but.... yeah, it's extremely underwhelming.
Click to expand...
In general, Ls doesn’t have to be connected to Attack potency. For example, you have stuff like vegeta scaling way above a multi galaxy level feat in the manga, and struggled to lift a 1000 tons robot. Actually, I’m fairly sure he just failed outright. So low Ls doesn’t really have to mean low ap or even dc. It’s just dragon ball chars don’t really lift
 
zmikez said:
first time here, sorry, I think the team four star was probably out of line.

Also didn't mean to knock the system that hard, I'm somewhat aware of how hard it is to get a feel for how strong someone actually is since moving near the speed of light inside our atmosphere should destroy the planet it happens on, collateral damage is usually avoided by heroes so it's difficult to judge, it's actually the main reason I found this site. I was just frustrated from some of the things I've seen that seem to directly go against the rules and guidelines.
Click to expand...
Ummmmmmm, no?

zmikez said:
I'll try to stick to the rules and guidelines as well as observable facts.




A jump 11 foot high would take 1 second to touch back down, based upon physics, without increasing earths gravity massively, that's two and a half seconds for less than 2 buildings of distance, let alone a couple miles.
Click to expand...
Spidey's a casual lightning timer my good fellow, lower street-tier Marvel characters can outpace explosions. It's frankly not out of his realm to perform feats like this out of the blue.

zmikez said:
So, lets push this towards the rules/guidelines and dbz again because we're veering a bit off topic.

Logical fallacies in particular

Claim ~ the moon is larger than portrayed in the manga.
Click to expand...
What do you even mean by this? The moon size is the same as ours, 3474.8 km in diameter.

zmikez said:
Burden of proof fallacy states that anyone claiming something, specifically the one who supposes there is something more than there is shown, like the moon is bigger than indicated, has the burden of proof.
Click to expand...
Again, WTF is "bigger than indicated"? Where is this coming from? The moon is moon-sized, 3474.8 km in diameter.

zmikez said:
Saying it's too small to be believable? argument from incredulity + appeal to probability (because it probably or might possibly be the case that the moon is larger)

Some may claim Akira Toriyama said the moon is X distance away, unfortunately that's the appeal to authority fallacy and we can dump that out as quickly as we did what he said about the moon being a projection right? I mean he was put on the spot in an interview and just said whatever came to mind.
Click to expand...
And? The game contradicts the OG source material (The manga) too much. End of discussion.

zmikez said:
Next, it's not really canon, even though it's said to be canon, because people are forgetful. Sounds like the anecdotal fallacy or possibly saying he's done it before so it's not reliable, because of who said it would be the genetic fallacy, while simultaneously being an appeal to probability, as above.

So.... yeah. Is there an actual reason why it's considered a moon-busting feat besides the fact that it was technically a moon, even if it appears to be 30ish meters across? It would be unfortunate if the entire cast was scaled based upon the false premise and possibly the inductive fallacy.
Click to expand...
Once again, game contradicts the manga. No other way to put it.

zmikez said:
The lack of moon busting strength is also directly supported by the fact that goku had trouble moving around in 10x gravity, he weighed 137 pounds so at that gravity, goku heavily struggled with 1370 pounds. Now, I'm not saying that's extremely weak for someone who can blow up a moon, but.... yeah, it's extremely underwhelming.
Click to expand...
One word: PIS.

Another thing: Kid Goku is Class K via pushing a big-ass boulder.. You're gonna have to try a lot harder to convince me that Goku struggling with 1370 lbs is anything more than PIS considering his kid self hurled a freakin' Renault 5 Turbo early in the manga's start, and that car weighs 975 kg, well over the 2100 lb mark.

His Super self lifts Class M level weights without even trying.

zmikez said:
There are simply too many instances of provable weakness, in comparison to what should be, to actually believe the moon busting feat is at the level claimed and the only argument I've heard in contrast was that it was said in a press conference that the moon was X distance away. Which is appeal to authority, which is something that's frowned upon in the rules.
Click to expand...
Okay so where is this press conference? Also, provide proof that the game overrules the manga, because at this point, not providing any newfound evidence is directly against the Discussion rules.

Also we simply use the IRL Earth-to-moon distance, I'm not even sure where you got the idea that Toriyama pointed out this distance. It's common knowledge that the Earth-to-Moon distance is 384400 km.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I'm sorry, what the actual hell is going on here?

Is the discussion related to the OP?
Click to expand...
It was, until Spider-Man got brought up.

Now we're dealing with 33 m or something DBZ Moon shenanigans, Moon feat being an illusion because DBZ Kakarot and Toriyama's involvement in that despite the game having too many contradictions with the manga, Goku capping at 1370 lbs or some shit, something like that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Oliver_de_jesus
Dragon balls addition for Goku and Z fighters
Replies
20
Views
1K
Oliver_de_jesus
Oliver_de_jesus
Ednaxel2
Dragon Ball: New Keys and Oozaru
Replies
26
Views
1K
Guacamolefletcher
Guacamolefletcher
Damage3245
  • Locked
Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)
5 6 7
Replies
267
Views
10K
Damage3245
Damage3245
Hagane_no_Saiyajin
  • Locked
A very controvsersial AP upgrade thread for Dragon Ball
Replies
32
Views
3K
Lonkitt
Lonkitt
Hagane_no_Saiyajin
  • Locked
Another very controvsersial AP upgrade thread for Dragon Ball
Replies
16
Views
2K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Back
Top