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A Crime Against the Wiki: Ikki Kurogane Vs Mami Tomoe

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Schnee One said:
My question is how does Ikki see it
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He can shift his attention to his unconscious.

Think of it like looking back instead of forward and noticing the stuff you aren't paying attention to. He looks at the sensorial information sent to his unconscious rather than the one he's consciously aware of.
 
If anything, Mami needs to put Ikki down quickly, otherwise, I'm pretty sure he one-shots her. Mami isn't very durable, sadly enough. So it really depends on what either side decides to do after the opening moves (provided if it isn't ended rightaway).
 
It is closer to mind manip, at least to me and Dargoo, but Earl is adamant that it isn't and to not simply classify everything under common groups of association.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
It's like calling perception manip for entering someone's blind spot.
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You know that forcing someone's brain to decide that you are junk info is way different then staying out of sight.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Firephoenixearl said:
It's like calling perception manip for entering someone's blind spot.
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You know that forcing someone's brain to decide that you are junk info is way different then staying out of sight.
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Well he's not forcing them. But there seem to be these....criterria that ikki just completes. He's ain't interacting with your mind, he's just becoming something, that your mind would classify as not important.
 
That's what I meant. If people just react to things that they look at, or have different criteria for "important" and/or "threatening", then it is likely to fail.
 
Well it works on anything that can be regarded as "an animal" (humans obviously included). We obviously take into account when someone's mind is not human (example a machine).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Hardly, cus having a different thought process doesn't mean your mind works differently.
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Yeah it does. What you view as junk info is fully dependant on your upbringing and the situation at moment.

A mediaval person A would feel the constant stink of the air in the city for hours before they get used to it, and would be widely distracted by background noise like cars.

And this would also mean that people who are not human brain wise would have fully different "criteria" to meet too. And yet here we are.
 
Yeah but ikki uses it on very different people from painters to swordfighters. So by feats its already a point he has shown to bypass.

And i will need some info on "are not fully human brain wise", some example.
 
Yeah, but that doesn't mean the logic behind saying that it's just like standing in someone's blind spot is still broken.

It makes absolutely no sense for someone's brain to dismiss a person charging at them no matter what pose ár movement they are doing unless the mind of those people is being hypnotised by said movements.
 
Ok but that's the idea. The flaw is there. Your mind has that flaw, he's just abusing it. He's not creating a flaw.

Hardly, it is not hypnotization cus they can still think normally. It is one of those things like cutting metal with paper or not hit the air (not having air friction) without us classifying it as physics manip. It shouldn't be possible by normal means unless hax, but we cannot go against the whole point of the ability, completely contradicting its in canon showings and explanation just to slap a power onto it according to our deisres.

There are very clear weaknesses stated in the series that we can use. 3 to be exact. We can just use those.
 
I don't think such basic flaws get verse equalized. Baki sure as hell didn't get it for the 0.5 thing they have.


And that is not what hypnosis is by the way. Not real hypnosis anyways. It doesn't make you unable to think, not without weeks of conditioning anyways, but it can shift your focus and the like.


And wasn't there a statement for their reaction time being also a set thing? That is obviously disregarded as a weakness.
 
Such flaws are proven to be true though. It literally gave the example of the gun and the earing. I don't think people can commonly pull it off. If they can, then sure. The baki example is just the verse getting the number plain wrong, it has no reason to get to other verses.

I never said it is hypnosis either.

Yes, but that's kinda....stupid, as in, that's just something to keep in mind so that we can scale Kuraudo Kurashiki to Ikki's speed, but no way in hell that can apply. Considering Stella reacts to light being thrown at her. If her reaction speed was indeed 0.1 second she would have been hit by literally 80% of whats thrown at her, same for Ikki.
 
See above, as Sayaka didn't mention anything to the effect of [this one DGR quote that I can't find anywhere] after transforming, we can assume that it still works on Mami.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Such flaws are proven to be true though. It literally gave the example of the gun and the earing. I don't think people can commonly pull it off. If they can, then sure. The baki example is just the verse getting the number plain wrong, it has no reason to get to other verses.

I never said it is hypnosis either.

Yes, but that's kinda....stupid, as in, that's just something to keep in mind so that we can scale Kuraudo Kurashiki to Ikki's speed, but no way in hell that can apply. Considering Stella reacts to light being thrown at her. If her reaction speed was indeed 0.1 second she would have been hit by literally 80% of whats thrown at her, same for Ikki.
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Yeah, but such a flaw is non-existed in actual human brains. Unless your brain is damaged and you can't distinguish what is dangerous or not, which can be but is rare, then you will only ignore something like that if your attention shifts to something else. The fact that such a flaw exists for Rakudai does not mean it can be said that now everyone's brain can look at a person with a sword charging at them, can actually see it, and then the brain to go like "oh he is in a position that means that I have ignore him".

Baki shows the 0.5 working, plain out, and you know it's not a few decimals of seconds that make the difference there. Whether it's 0.5 or 0.3 for real life, it's still a stupid power for a nothing whose speed has the word "sonic" in it.

And yeah, it is dumb. No surprises there. Trackless Steonis dumb too, and relies on a mechanic of the brain that does not exist to the effect the verse describes it as. What is described there is only possible through either a long session or hypnosis, or not at all. And when the impossible is not a power used by the character, but a biological flaw of the opponent, that isn't going to apply against people from other verses.
 
They are not damaged in the brain, they can notice what is dangerous, it is specifically Trackless Step that makes that seem not dangerous to the brain. You're acting as if they don't sense danger from someone coming at them in normal conditions. It's like calling someone blind for not seeing an invisible dude. They can see him in normal conditions, not when he becomes invisible though.

Precisely, it only works because of PIS if we want it working we'd literally have to downgrade everyone to peak human.

False equivalency, cus the stated reaction time is "dumb" because its contradicted by other feats in the series, you cannot do literally 99% of rakudai's speed feats with that reaction speed, not "it cannot be done irl". The issue does exist:

For example, imagine that there was a man thrusting a gun in front of one's eyes. And that man is obviously showing hostility, and pulling the trigger with his finger. In that kind of situation, just about anyone would have his eyes glued to the muzzle. It would be natural, because it was one's life being threatened. Under that kind of situation, would anyone take heed of the man's earring? Would anyone care who the earring's maker was? There was no way anyone would care. No one would consciously recognize inconsequential information, probably. However, in order to break this Trackless Step, one has to take his eyes from the muzzle and focus on the earring beneath that serious situation. That was the task of shifting one's attention onto the unconscious.

Unless you're saying that in a real life situation people would be able to pull this off or most character's verses would be able to pull it off.

The opponent was making everything about herself imperceptible by shifting her breath and body a half-step, and by sliding into that interval, she had dodged the awareness locking onto her. That was the mechanism behind the old-style footwork Trackless Step.

The mechanic basically dodges awareness. Again slapping any of these to "mind manip", "perception manip" is just outright contradicting the feats. We're an indexing wiki, slapping "moving your feats in weird ways" with "manipulates the mind of his opponent" is just plainly putting wrong info on the profiles.

Again, there are very clear weaknesses to this ability, we do not need to slap wrong info on the profiles for this to be usable in fights. The idea of putting wrong info on the profile just to make it so that it is far easier to fight against seems bad at most. Sorry i will never agree to this.
 
I am not implying that. I am implying that the way someone charges can make ther brain do that.

There isn't much you can argue here. Either their brain can be tricked into ignoring someone due to the way they walk despite them charging with a sword, or that the way they walk has a hypnotic effect.

That explanation is, pardon my wording, idiotic. You don't care about their earing when they thrust a gun at you because there is something that takes your attention firsthand, and because the earring is a non-factor to you. If someone trusted a gun at you, and someone was running you with a sword, both would be very much something on your mind. Take out the gun, and the only thing left is someone running at you with a sword, which under no circumstances can be ignored by a normal humans brain unless it's a supernatural skill.

I don't think you know what hypnosis is. Real world hypnosis. Because making specific movements to trick someone's brain to act in a way it shouldn't naturally is its whole thing, including making it ignore things they plainly see. Uncinscious is also a big part of that.

Regardless, the people aren't noticing someone charging at them despite their eyes and senses feeling it. That either means that they naturally don't realize something like that, or that the one charging is doing something. And I have yet to see a reason why real hypnosis, none of that "warping metaphysical minds" junk, wouldn't be by far the most reasonable explanation.
 
Hmm, a real life hypnosis that doesn't interact with resistances the same way as basic mind control does? I am ok with that, if we are to put it as real life hypnosis and treat it like that, then fine by me. What i was/am against is stuff like "TS doesn't work because x dude resisted getting his mind overtaken/corrupted/erased/controled by X dude", which is completely missing the point of what a naturally induced result is.

If we're on the same page here, i agree.
 
Yeah, I agree with that. Resisting magical mind destruction and real life brain tricks are two different things.

Would you look at that, a debate ending in an agreement. Ain't that rare?

So, derailing aside, what is up with this match?
 
Who is winning and loosing, and why, and who can I blindly fra to?

Wasn't this a stomp last time I checked in?
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Yeah, I agree with that. Resisting magical mind destruction and real life brain tricks are two different things.
Would you look at that, a debate ending in an agreement. Ain't that rare?
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Ok then i agree. I will remember to add this part in my next Rakudai CRT (which is coming soon btw, as there is some speed scaling to be done).

I mean i am not against agreeing with people, as long as the argument im looking at is sensible enough (which is in this case) count me in.
 
I dunno if it's fair with Magia Record Mami since she can summon a witch and reality warp him away, outside of that Mami was winning via her invisible ribbon traps that come with powernull
 
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