+++ 9-A Swiss style Tournament: Breaking conventions +++: Round 1; Match 6: Beyond the Grave vs Slyfox

[Board3659]

This is a 10-round Swiss-style tournament!!! (Link to Tournament page)
Round 1; Match 6: Beyond the Grave vs Slyfox
in Geneva of course

Match Rules:​

• Speed is equalized
• All optional equipment is allowed that is up to 9-A
• Takes place in the center of Gevena at Sunrise
• 70 meters starting distance
• No Prep nor Prior Knowledge
• The city is abandoned for these matches so no outside help
• BFR, Death Manip, and other passive One-Shot Hax have been mostly banned
• For more info go to the main Tournament page

Characters​	Attack Potency​	Votes​
Beyond The Grave (Gungrave)​	0.05 Tons of TNT	2: AnAverageUsername; LordGinSama
Slyfox (The Godsfall Chronicles)	0.006 Tons of TNT (higher with equipment)	0:
Inconclusive		0

 

[Rikimarox2]

Well, Beyond could very well one-shot. The problem is that they are 70 meters apart, and Grave is only dozens of meters.

Not that it matters, with Slyfox's analytical prediction, he could very well dodge even if he got in Grave's gun range since many in the verse does that.

Now for skill, let's start with basic stuff.

First off, Slyfox is a Control Metahuman. A very good one, at that. For starters, normal Control metahumans were able to perfectly control their bodies as well as any weapons they were wielding. These types of metahumans often preferred to use complicated technological weapons, such as various types of firearms

Secondly, he scales laughably above Cloudhawk in terms of gunskills, who was stated when he wielded his revolver for the first time, he felt as if his mind had reached out through his body and extended into the gun itself. He could clearly sense every tiny part and every molded line with perfect clarity, almost as though the revolver was part of his own body. It was like his eyes, his arms, or his legs; he was able to control it with absolute mastery.

Cloudhawk, for one, can kill an Alpha rotwolf by headshotting it, despite the Rotwolf itself being much faster and having analytical prediction in terms of instincts and can dodge bullets due to it.

Additionally, it was stated that Slyfox was able to use two modified pistols to hit bull’s-eyes from a hundred meters away without even aiming[1] as well as capable of shooting and destroying Mad Dog's machetes dozens of meters away without even looking.[2] It was also stated that he is capable of instantly locking onto and shoot even a falcon flying at top speed, and was able to shoot a sparrow from thirty meters away as easily as shooting an elephant. You know, Sparrow, the bird that is like, 14 cm in terms of length?

As for analytical prediction, well, I'll just repost the justification: Should be far superior to Cloudhawk, who is capable of predicting where the Alpha rotwolf will dodge, despite the rotwolf's sense of danger.[1] Additionally, he's able to predict and shoot 4 bullets against Number Four, making sure it was impossible to dodge, had it not been for Number Four being hilariously above Slyfox in both speed and strength, and being extremely precise as well[4] to the point it was stated his attacks were so precise as if he had measured them to a millimeter in advance, and all his moves were calculated countless times in advance before attacking and showing no weakness[4]. Number Four was so much more powerful and skilled that he was able to predict where Slyfox will shoot even despite Slyfox covering his line of vision with a body so he cannot see the gun. However, Slyfox was eventually able to almost kill Number Four after he has watched his movements, his breathing, his every minor motion. After having taken all factors and possible responses into consideration, he was almost able to kill Number Four had it not been for the latter to increase his power and speed even more. It was even stated that Slyfox perfectly calculated his movements and all potential variables, he had even taken into account Number Four's reaction speed and the speed at which his hands were able to move. Even Number Four stated that this shot had virtually sealed his fate, and stated he was a truly formidable gunner

Keep in mind that not only is Number Four laughably above Slyfox in terms of strength, but in speed as well. One key factor here is the fact that Slyfox calculates all potential variables, and especially his Reaction Speed

Why does that matter? Well, Grave has a reaction speed amp. So when Slyfox shoots a few bullets, he'll be able to calculate his reaction speed due to the amp (Assuming grave can even dodge them) and just shoot perfect bullets so that Grave can't dodge.

Also, for starters, many dudes in the verse can be injured by bullets, even dudes who can destroy 2 buildings in one attack. So, it's safe to say that Slyfox can headshot Grave and can possibly immediately kill him.

 

[Board3659]

Beyond the grave has perception manipulation ... now how much is something I don't know sadly

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I didn't even get notified

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Since I'm going to be eating soon, here's a video of Grave's skills

 

[Rikimarox2]

After watching it at 2x speed and a few skips, and after almost having a seizure, I don't really see that much of a skill feat. Dude just seems so much faster than them rather than "Skilled", considering he can even dodge the bullets due to sheer speed, instead of like dudes like Slyfox, who can dodge bullets while being like 30 times slower than them.

Unlike Slyfox, who fights and kills dudes that are faster than him, and stronger than him, and has analytical prediction feats.

Also, if the video is anything to go by, his range does indeed not exceed dozens of meters, so, coupled with the speed equalization, Slyfox should be able to kill him with a single shot thanks to Analytical prediction feat, range, and the fact that Grave is equal to Slyfox in speed, ie peak human.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

After watching it at 2x speed and a few skips, and after almost having a seizure, I don't really see that much of a skill feat. Dude just seems so much faster than them rather than "Skilled", considering he can even dodge the bullets due to sheer speed, instead of like dudes like Slyfox, who can dodge bullets while being like 30 times slower than them.

Unlike Slyfox, who fights and kills dudes that are faster than him, and stronger than him, and has analytical prediction feats.

Also, if the video is anything to go by, his range does indeed not exceed dozens of meters, so, coupled with the speed equalization, Slyfox should be able to kill him with a single shot thanks to Analytical prediction feat, range, and the fact that Grave is equal to Slyfox in speed, ie peak human.

its not for skill feats, its for actual skills aka abilities

 

[Rikimarox2]

AH-

****, Vsbattle rotted my brain.

Yeah, if that's the case, most of them will kill him lmao. One of the dangerous ones is when he does like, illusions or afterimages, but other than that, everything else cannot reach him in time and don't know if Grave even leads with Illusions.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

AH-

****, Vsbattle rotted my brain.

We all get that brainrot once in a while

Yeah, if that's the case, most of them will kill him lmao. One of the dangerous ones is when he does like, illusions or afterimages, but other than that, everything else cannot reach him in time and don't know if Grave even leads with Illusions.

Which one are you referring to about after images? Most of them are just bullet hell, rocket hell, Dawn of the Grave skills

I'll probably make a post soon about what Grave can do, but Gungrave is so niche that it's nigh impossible to find full game play online to sample from without having to boot up a console and take what you see yourself.... Eh, maybe Gin could help, he's a Nightow fan

 

[Rikimarox2]

Not sure if they are afterimages or straight up cloning, but around 4:25~

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Not sure if they are afterimages or straight up cloning, but around 4:25~

Ooh, I see the confusion. I forgot to clarify that Grave's abilities stop at 2:25.... sorry

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ah what.

If that's the case, then yeah, he doesn't really have anything that poses that much of a threat to Slyfox. One of his attacks seem to reach like 40 or so meters (Only eyeballing it), but not enough to reach Sly and doubt it's like a first thing to do as well.

 

[Board3659]

I do wonder if this qualifies as a stomp or not

I don't know very well on stomp stuff but I assume this isn't

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Ah what.

If that's the case, then yeah, he doesn't really have anything that poses that much of a threat to Slyfox. One of his attacks seem to reach like 40 or so meters (Only eyeballing it), but not enough to reach Sly and doubt it's like a first thing to do as well.

I mean I'm still watching a longplay of GunGrave ps2, because I only have OD, but I will say that Grave could use his Day/Night/Dawn skills to... slow down(?) The environment and close the distance

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Still watching the longplay, but here are some more skills aka abilities for Grave from the first game

 

[Rikimarox2]

If he can slow down the surrounding, then he should probably have that on the profile, as that would mean his profile is outdated.

Even then, Analytical prediction of Slyfox should help him get the win, tbh. With his skill, and the fact that he can probably one shot with his gun, I honestly believe he can get a headshot sooner or later before Grave can close the distance, especially considering this is the same dude that can hit bullseye without aiming.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

If he can slow down the surrounding, then he should probably have that on the profile, as that would mean his profile is outdated.

I only say that as that's what appears to happen, it's hard to really put it into words...

Oh, and the profile is outdated, yeah

Even then, Analytical prediction of Slyfox should help him get the win, tbh. With his skill, and the fact that he can probably one shot with his gun, I honestly believe he can get a headshot sooner or later before Grave can close the distance, especially considering this is the same dude that can hit bullseye without aiming.

Maybe, but I'll try to find some skill stuff for Grave. I can basically only use 2 games here to try and find stuff, since the profile doesn't seem to include anything about the VR (ew) games, and the anime is non Canon so I can't use anything from there.

Why do I do this to myself with niche characters

 

[Rikimarox2]

I only say that as that's what appears to happen, it's hard to really put it into words...

Oh, and the profile is outdated, yeah

Tbh, some of the slow-mo seems to slow him down as well? It doesn't like all of them are actual amps, more so just slow mo for the sake of, well, slow-mo.

Also, great.

Maybe, but I'll try to find some skill stuff for Grave. I can basically only use 2 games here to try and find stuff, since the profile doesn't seem to include anything about the VR (ew) games, and the anime is non Canon so I can't use anything from there.

Why do I do this to myself with niche characters

Enjoy the pain of Niche Characters. I'm having trouble with novel stuff, let alone Niche video games that barely anyone knows about lol

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Tbh, some of the slow-mo seems to slow him down as well? It doesn't like all of them are actual amps, more so just slow mo for the sake of, well, slow-mo.

It does sorta look like that, but Grave still ends up seeing everything else slower. It is listed on his profile that it heightens his speeds. Adding on to that, it does that so much to the point where Grave sees most things slower than himself.

Also, great.

It's not great in situations like these

Enjoy the pain of Niche Characters. I'm having trouble with novel stuff, let alone Niche video games that barely anyone knows about lol

 

[LordGinSama]

Pause dis till I get back from work in a couple hours.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Gin is cooking

 

[Rikimarox2]

Inb4 Grave has soul manip, 100x speed Amp, 100 billion KM range and cannot miss a single attack as well as High godly regen.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Inb4 Grave has soul manip, 100x speed Amp, 100 billion KM range and cannot miss a single attack as well as High godly regen.

That's Trigun, Gungrave's more popular cousin

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Pause dis till I get back from work in a couple hours.

Any update?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Uh, bump?

 

[LordGinSama]

Analytical Prediction doesn't really mean much given the fact that in the verse (Same planet as Trigun, just set before the events of Trigun ofc.) anyone who's worth a damn is capable of predicting their opponents attacks, analyze their weaknesses, etc.


Grave should scale above the likes of lower tiered Eye of Michael members (Note: Even these guys can tango with the likes of Vash albeit not for very long.) and should scale to the skill feats of the higher end members such as Livio and Wolfwood. The important part to note being that Livio has 2 layers of Analytical Prediction similarly to Slyfox's (Razlo his other personality has his own unique form of precognition, Livio later learned how to control Razlo and synced up with him allowing him to keep pace with a vastly faster opponent with their own speed amps while using an extremely unorthodox weapon. Said person also has an "anti skill aura." that specifically hinders those more skilled than her and Livio still managed to beat her.)


Unfortunately I don't have access to scans for Heat's skill feats but they include perfectly sniping someone from dozens of buildings away with no line of sight and the targeted being concealed by a curtain, sniping dozens of rocket's and RPG's mid-air, etc. I actually find what Riki said before to be funny since there was someone in the Gun Grave anime that kept dodging Grave's bullets. You know what Grave's solution was? To literally aim better lol.





Also Grave eats bullets on the regular, and has regeneration to aid him here that acts nearly instantaneously. All in all I really don't see what Slyfox can do here considering they're about equal in terms of skill, and physical stats. Grave however takes the versatility advantage with his various weapons, a lot of which have AoE, has regeneration to help him with any damage he's likely to take, Homing rounds which will follow Slyfox regardless of his Analytical Prediction and Grave's perception manipulation that allows him to halt his perception of time to a near halt.



Speaking of which, Slyfox wouldn't be able to tell what Grave is doing whenever he uses his perception amp even with his Analytical Prediction. There's nothing to logically "Predict." there since it isn't being used against Slyfox and has no indication that he's using it.




Voting Brendon Heat.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Analytical Prediction doesn't really mean much given the fact that in the verse (Same planet as Trigun, just set before the events of Trigun ofc.) anyone who's worth a damn is capable of predicting their opponents attacks, analyze their weaknesses, etc.

What. They are part of Trigun? This doesn't bode well already.

Grave should scale above the likes of lower tiered Eye of Michael members (Note: Even these guys can tango with the likes of Vash albeit not for very long.) and should scale to the skill feats of the higher end members such as Livio and Wolfwood. The important part to note being that Livio has 2 layers of Analytical Prediction similarly to Slyfox's (Razlo his other personality has his own unique form of precognition, Livio later learned how to control Razlo and synced up with him allowing him to keep pace with a vastly faster opponent with their own speed amps while using an extremely unorthodox weapon. Said person also has an "anti skill aura." that specifically hinders those more skilled than her and Livio still managed to beat her.)

Speaking of which, Slyfox wouldn't be able to tell what Grave is doing whenever he uses his perception amp even with his Analytical Prediction. There's nothing to logically "Predict." there since it isn't being used against Slyfox and has no indication that he's using it.

It isn't that he knows Grave has perception amp, it's the fact that Sly will just calculate Grave's reaction speed (assuming Grave uses it when he dodges the bullets), and put shots according to his reaction speed. There';s also another feat that I'm honestly not sure if it is impressive but Slyfox shouldn't be that much less skilled than a dude that can can predict where every grain of sand and soil were and where they will land (Dude he's fighting against threw bunch of dirt and sand shiz against him while he's weakened), but it doesn't matter now since he doesn't have the range advantage (Also I thought the anime wasn't canon?)

Reading these, it seems that Grave's profile is just absurdly outdated, since it lacks the analytical prediction, homing stuff, and his regen doesn't justify the fact that he can regen headshots. Tbh I didn't even think there's a manga or the fact that they were the same universe, or has higher range (Or the fact that someone of them are equal to vash in skill). Though Slyfox's guns in his verse can damage 8-C dudes, so there's that but it doesn't matter here. Sly gets eviscerated here.

Yeah I don't think Slyfox can contend against this. The profile didn't mention any of this.

 

[LordGinSama]

What. They are part of Trigun? This doesn't bode well already.

Yup! Takes place on the same exact planet before the events of Trigun.

It isn't that he knows Grave has perception amp, it's the fact that Sly will just calculate Grave's reaction speed (assuming Grave uses it when he dodges the bullets), and put shots according to his reaction speed.

How would he calculate Grave's reaction speed? I mean even by doing so Grave would still be able to dodge since he'd see the second bullets in slow motion as well.

There';s also another feat that I'm honestly not sure if it is impressive but Slyfox shouldn't be that much less skilled than a dude that can can predict where every grain of sand and soil were and where they will land (Dude he's fighting against threw bunch of dirt and sand shiz against him while he's weakened), but it doesn't matter now since he doesn't have the range advantage.

pocket sand gg

Reading these, it seems that Grave's profile is just absurdly outdated, since it lacks the analytical prediction, homing stuff, and his regen doesn't justify the fact that he can regen headshots. Tbh I didn't even think there's a manga or the fact that they were the same universe, or has higher range (Or the fact that someone of them are equal to vash in skill).

His profile is extremely outdated yes, but he does currently have Homing rounds with the Death Hauler. There isn't a Gun Grave manga to my knowledge but there is the animation and the games. Also I think you misunderstood, they most definitely don't scale to Vash in terms of skill, not even remotely. Some of them can somewhat match his skill such as Wolfwood and such but even then there's a clear difference.

 

[Rikimarox2]

How would he calculate Grave's reaction speed? I mean even by doing so Grave would still be able to dodge since he'd see the second bullets in slow motion as well.

Beats me, it's just stated he can. He fought against a dude that is skilled to the point he can cut bullets that coming towards him and know which one will hit him. Sly saw the other dude has higher reaction speed, calculated it somehow, since it's a Chinese novel and all, Chinamen shenanigans, and shot bullets that he can't dodge or block.

pocket sand gg

You can predict my movements? Predict this you filthy casual.

His profile is extremely outdated yes, but he does currently have Homing rounds with the Death Hauler. There isn't a Gun Grave manga to my knowledge but there is the animation and the games. Also I think you misunderstood, they most definitely don't scale to Vash in terms of skill, not even remotely. Some of them can somewhat match his skill such as Wolfwood and such but even then there's a clear difference.

Ah, at least they don't scale to Vash. Still, he probably just yeets Slyfox. Though, I recall a comment that stated the anime wasn't canon. Not that it really matters lmao.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Analytical Prediction doesn't really mean much given the fact that in the verse (Same planet as Trigun, just set before the events of Trigun ofc.) anyone who's worth a damn is capable of predicting their opponents attacks, analyze their weaknesses, etc.


Grave should scale above the likes of lower tiered Eye of Michael members (Note: Even these guys can tango with the likes of Vash albeit not for very long.) and should scale to the skill feats of the higher end members such as Livio and Wolfwood. The important part to note being that Livio has 2 layers of Analytical Prediction similarly to Slyfox's (Razlo his other personality has his own unique form of precognition, Livio later learned how to control Razlo and synced up with him allowing him to keep pace with a vastly faster opponent with their own speed amps while using an extremely unorthodox weapon. Said person also has an "anti skill aura." that specifically hinders those more skilled than her and Livio still managed to beat her.)


Unfortunately I don't have access to scans for Heat's skill feats but they include perfectly sniping someone from dozens of buildings away with no line of sight and the targeted being concealed by a curtain, sniping dozens of rocket's and RPG's mid-air, etc. I actually find what Riki said before to be funny since there was someone in the Gun Grave anime that kept dodging Grave's bullets. You know what Grave's solution was? To literally aim better lol.





Also Grave eats bullets on the regular, and has regeneration to aid him here that acts nearly instantaneously. All in all I really don't see what Slyfox can do here considering they're about equal in terms of skill, and physical stats. Grave however takes the versatility advantage with his various weapons, a lot of which have AoE, has regeneration to help him with any damage he's likely to take, Homing rounds which will follow Slyfox regardless of his Analytical Prediction and Grave's perception manipulation that allows him to halt his perception of time to a near halt.



Speaking of which, Slyfox wouldn't be able to tell what Grave is doing whenever he uses his perception amp even with his Analytical Prediction. There's nothing to logically "Predict." there since it isn't being used against Slyfox and has no indication that he's using it.




Voting Brendon Heat.

You cooked!

 

[AnAverageUsername]

If it wasn't obvious, of course I'm voting for the character I submitted, Grave

Beats me, it's just stated he can. He fought against a dude that is skilled to the point he can cut bullets that coming towards him and know which one will hit him. Sly saw the other dude has higher reaction speed, calculated it somehow, since it's a Chinese novel and all, Chinamen shenanigans, and shot bullets that he can't dodge or block.

You can predict my movements? Predict this you filthy casual.

Ah, at least they don't scale to Vash. Still, he probably just yeets Slyfox. Though, I recall a comment that stated the anime wasn't canon. Not that it really matters lmao.

Anything relating to Nightow gets convoluted

I guess the beginning half of the animation could be considered Canon due to the fact its just an extended backstory for Brandon Heat aka Beyond the Grave

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't recall the anime being stated to be non canon tbh.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I don't recall the anime being stated to be non canon tbh.

It's mainly the second half you know....

Spoiler: Ending Spoiler

Grave is literaly dying at the end, and both Brandon and Harry do a double kill to eachother. It diverges heaily from the game around Bear Walken's fight.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Also, OP, Gin said they were voting for Grave aka Brandon Heat

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So Riki says that Grave likely yeets SkyFox, is that a concession?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ah yeah, Sly doesn't have any advantage here, so yes.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So, grace?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Not really grace, I think? Grace needs 7 votes.

I think what you meant was that Grave wins this and proceeds with the tourney. Sly doesn't have any advantage her, literally none due to what Gin said. So, it's quite the stomp.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Not really grace, I think? Grace needs 7 votes.

I think what you meant was that Grave wins this and proceeds with the tourney. Sly doesn't have any advantage her, literally none due to what Gin said. So, it's quite the stomp.

Apparently In FC/OC, grace only needs 3 votes

 

[Board3659]

Not really grace, I think? Grace needs 7 votes.

I think what you meant was that Grave wins this and proceeds with the tourney. Sly doesn't have any advantage her, literally none due to what Gin said. So, it's quite the stomp.

well it means 7 votes are needed to make Grace win and get 1 point for the win. This is Swiss style
...
I assume this is a stomp since Sly has no Win con here right?