1-A Characters without Taikyoku (non-DI) on par if not better than 1-A Characters with Taikyoku (DI)

[Jakob_C._Brown]

I have been wondering about this for a while. On whatever battleboard I end up stumbling upon, Dies Irae is hailed as one of the most powerful works of fiction in terms of power level shenanigans. Whenever the likes of Umineko, Demonbane, DC/Vertigo, or Lovecraft is brought up they tend to be considered fodder or unable to best Dies Irae because Dies Irae has an infallible cosmology in the form of "Taikyoku."

Despite the rule being that 1-A vs 1-A or above battles are technically forbidden or very much discouraged, I still have noticed through my time observing VBW within thread being mentioned that a Taikyoku level 90 is 9 degrees of infinity greater than a "baseline 1-A." I take we all know what a baseline 1-A is: someone or something that lives up to the very minimum requirements of being a powerful entity unbound by dimensionality, time, and space on all sense of material scale (unless outerverse is scientifically or mathematically possible, I dunno).

It is not my intention to make this into a 1-A vs 1-A thread but I just want to get some perspective, if possible, what is comparable to a Taikyoku value of 65 or 90 power-wise to a being that has no Taikyoku. Does the lack of Taikyoku truly prevent a (1-A) character from besting one with a Taikyoku? Because that's a form of reasoning I've come across outside VBW or how a Taikyoku value of 90 is like infinity^9 * infinity or something (that's my impression at least).

Basically, what I am wondering is what is the non-Taikyoku bearing "Equal" or "Greater opponent" to a character who has a Taikyoku value of 65, 90, 100, or even immeasurable? Because Hajun is considered merely 1-A despite having a Taikyoku with a value that is immeasurable or practically infinity, so I take they are not on par with a High 1-A since the latter is implicitly representing the macrocosm and beyond in a greater way or magnitude.

Also you don't necessarily have to pick an already pre-existing fictional character as an example of this non-Taikyoku bearing "Equal" or "Greater opponent" as long as you just highlight what the qualities or abilities are that must be possessed in order to stalemate or exceed a being of such Taikyoku values if they themselves do not possess one whatsoever (for example: because they are not part of the DI verse).

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Depends

Right now, we just consider Taikyoku to be number of how much "transcendence" the character has over a baseline 1-A.

In other words, something like an Umineko avatar on a 100th layer of their cosmology could be said to be comparable to a Hadou God with 100 Taikyoku.

That is what we consider right now.

I have however seen people claim that the Hadou Gods infinite expansion ability even extends to taking over higher layers of outerversal places - e.g. if a Hadou god entered Umineko, they would expand until the entire infinitely layered structure was within them. Under this interpretation, it is correct that most other 1-A fictions can't compete, as this would mean Hadou Gods essentially have "infinite number of transcendences + Taikyoku transcendence", and very few fictions have infinite 1-A "transcendences" to begin with, let alone a secondary number of "transcendences" on top of that.

There has been no proof provided of this claim however.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Interesting, so the Sea of Oblivion in Umineko is made out of an infinite hierarchies/layers?

To be fair, wouldn't Hadou Gods only be capable of expanding their ability across existence if they weren't met by any opposition whatsover? Beatrice, Bernkastel and Featherine would most likely hinder a Hadou God's influence upon the Umineko verse unless the infinite expansion overrides the forces or defenses that would hinder said expansion of influence in the first place.

"and very few fictions have infinite 1-A "transcendences" to begin with"

Curiously enough, which others come to your mind who qualify for this or who perhaps even have a secondary number of "transcendences" on top of that?

 

[Wokistan]

Shub-Niggurath is the strongest regular 1-A as of now. The levels of transcendence in the Cthulhu mythos exceed those of Masada.

 

[Archaron]

Shub-Niggurath is the strongest regular 1-A as of now. The levels of transcendence in the Cthulhu mythos exceed those of Masada.

I have heard that there is an infinite pantheon of outer gods one infinitely above the other, each being individually 1-A.

 

[Wokistan]

CM has that, a couple of times. I can explain in the morning. The thing is, beings on this level don't really "fight", being superior to such restrictive ideas as change. From a truer perspective, they always were and always will be, and at the same time never were and never will be. There's a reason that 1-A fights don't get added.

 

[Wokistan]

Simply put, they aren't this strong for the sake of being powerful, but instead their abstract nature allows them to act more as ideas, and further exemplify the insignificance of humanity in comparison.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Interesting, so the Sea of Oblivion in Umineko is made out of an infinite hierarchies/layers?

Yes. You can read about it here (the blog is a little outdated, as almost everything is outerversal now, but it still provides some information on the cosmology).

To be fair, wouldn't Hadou Gods only be capable of expanding their ability across existence if they weren't met by any opposition whatsover? Beatrice, Bernkastel and Featherine would most likely hinder a Hadou God's influence upon the Umineko verse unless the infinite expansion overrides the forces or defenses that would hinder said expansion of influence in the first place.

Ignoring those people for the time being, the issue is that those higher levels are completely transcendent to any lower layer. Higher layers treat lower layers as fiction to be read and re-written at will. How could a fictional character reach out of the story and affect the "real" world?

That being said this is fiction where authors can have their characters transcend to higher levels, but it needs to be shown. Masadaverse has, to my knowledge, only one level of outerversal space - the singularity. And while infinite taikyoku values can fit within that space, assuming that Hadous can expand to encompass an infinitely higher, infinitely more complex level of outerversal space needs more proof than just "expands to fill everything". "Everything" in Masadaverse is not "everything" in Umineko or Lovecraft.

"and very few fictions have infinite 1-A "transcendences" to begin with"

Curiously enough, which others come to your mind who qualify for this or who perhaps even have a secondary number of "transcendences" on top of that?

Umineko and Lovecraft have it. I don't know any others.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Demonbane's Outer Gods are supposedly the exact same as the Lovecraftian variations AP wise... So I'd put them in there as well.

 

[DarkLK]

I never understood the problem with Taikyoku.

All you need to determine is the basic level of a god and the difference in power that different values of Taikyoku give.

If the basic level of a god is baseline 1-A and the difference between the values of Taikyoku is something like an analogue of the difference between the dimensions at the transcendental level. Then you get a gods, which will be for a number of quality steps ("degree of infinity") above the baseline 1-A.

And you can compare this with cosmic hierarchies in other fictions no matter how they are called there. They can be larger, but they can be smaller.

Or maybe the basic level of a god is exceeds baseline 1-A to an infinite qualitative hierarchy. And the difference between Taikyoku values is equal to the difference between a dimensional object and a beyond-dimensional object. Then you will get a much larger scale hierarchical thing and other fictions will have to try to prove that they are capable of something like that.

 

[DarkLK]

Demonbane's Outer Gods are supposedly the exact same as the Lovecraftian variations AP wise...

I'm not so sure that this is so. I will not say that they are stronger or weaker, but there are differences in cosmological models.

 

[Archaron]

Demonbane's Outer Gods are supposedly the exact same as the Lovecraftian variations AP wise... So I'd put them in there as well.

I disagree. demonbane may even "based" on CM, but it does not quite equal, I would say well below.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Interesting, so the Sea of Oblivion in Umineko is made out of an infinite hierarchies/layers?

Yes. You can read about it here (the blog is a little outdated, as almost everything is outerversal now, but it still provides some information on the cosmology).

I've read it but it details a lot of these layers as being subjected to dimensionality such as the Sea of Fragments and perhaps it's due to personal poor reading comprehension but I don't really see how the text states that the Sea of Oblivion itself is a dimensionless "space" or "realm" made out of infinite layers. It does however state that the Creator's World consists out of infinite hierarchies and layers untop of Featherine's world and Sea of Oblivion.

But since Sea of Oblivion is what makes the likes of Bernkastel and Lambdadelta 1-A doesn't that make them rather baseline 1-A since everything prior is still subjected to dimensionality?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That's what I mean by "outdated"

Dimensions aren't involved now. Everything above the human world is 1-A, even only the first layer in the witches hierarchy.

Dark could go into more detail.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

I never understood the problem with Taikyoku.
All you need to determine is the basic level of a god and the difference in power that different values of Taikyoku give.

If the basic level of a god is baseline 1-A and the difference between the values of Taikyoku is something like an analogue of the difference between the dimensions at the transcendental level. Then you get a gods, which will be for a number of quality steps ("degree of infinity") above the baseline 1-A.

And you can compare this with cosmic hierarchies in other fictions no matter how they are called there. They can be larger, but they can be smaller.

Or maybe the basic level of a god is exceeds baseline 1-A to an infinite qualitative hierarchy. And the difference between Taikyoku values is equal to the difference between a dimensional object and a beyond-dimensional object. Then you will get a much larger scale hierarchical thing and other fictions will have to try to prove that they are capable of something like that.

I suppose it is not as complicated as I though it was but people really seem to harp on how Taikyoku is this sort of (literally) powerlevel thing that can not be compared to other 1-A works since Demonbane, for instance, doesn't work with any sort of powerlevel measurement it just has a mech that slay Outer Gods and has a Tier 0 sealed inside of its blade. Yet its powers are nothing special either since a character with a Taikyoku of 60 has similar powers.

 

[DarkLK]

Dark could go into more detail.

Well, I made another picture. I do not know how people here will view this from the perspective of tiering.

 

[DarkLK]

I suppose it is not as complicated as I though it was but people really seem to harp on how Taikyoku is this sort of (literally) powerlevel thing that can not be compared to other 1-A works since Demonbane, for instance, doesn't work with any sort of powerlevel measurement it just has a mech that slay Outer Gods and has a Tier 0 sealed inside of its blade. Yet its powers are nothing special either since a character with a Taikyoku of 60 has similar powers.

And shit cosmic tier like Mars Demonbane has similar powers. But I do not understand what this has to do with dimensionless hierarchies.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Dark could go into more detail.

Well, I made another picture. I do not know how people here will view this from the perspective of tiering.

Is this picture directly related to Umineko or just something in general?

And shit cosmic tier like Mars Demonbane has similar powers. But I do not understand what this has to do with dimensionless hierarchies.

No, you're right but it is something I've seen being argued but in retrospect that's only being argued when people deliberately ignore dimensionless hierarchies and just focus on what kind of powers character A has compared to character B.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Shub-Niggurath is the strongest regular 1-A as of now. The levels of transcendence in the Cthulhu mythos exceed those of Masada.

If not for yog sothoth being stronger than all of them, there would be literally dozens of high 1-As in lovecraft

 

[Wokistan]

well, no. High 1-A doesn't work that way. While it's true that there's literally an infinite amount of nameless outer gods that would in a vacuum qualify for high 1-A based on their degree of transcendence, stuff being above them precludes that possibility. Shub Niggurath is beyond every other 1-A completely, and may or may not be a foil to yog. Out of all the rest, Shub is the only other one I could see at high 1-A. issue is, Shub is incredibly vague, and shows up very, very little. There's just not enough evicence to say that it's anything besides an incredibly powerful 1-A.

 

[DarkLK]

Is this picture directly related to Umineko or just something in general?

This is the basic cosmology that should be applied to all related works.

No, you're right but it is something I've seen being argued but in retrospect that's only being argued when people deliberately ignore dimensionless hierarchies and just focus on what kind of powers character A has compared to character B.

I wish good luck and a lot of patience to these people.

 

[DarkLK]

Shub is incredibly vague, and shows up very, very little.

This probably applies to all the outer gods except Yog and Nya.

 

[Wokistan]

Most of them aren't even named, though to be fair generally not everyone in a race will be a named thing. You are correct in saying that we know the most about Nyar and Yog though. It's a consequence of the fact that only those two really notice humans. Nyar likes to **** around with them, and Yog Sothoth as the composite archtype of the verse will constantly be aware of all, as all is it. Almost every other outer god disregards humanity entirely, likely not even being aware they exist, due to their lack of significance. What's funny is that even beings like this are rendered inconsequential when compared to Yog, and all that is to Azathoth is a dream, at least from a human perspective.