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Minor Gran Rey Cero Upgrade

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Introduction
  • Welcome back to Arc scrutinizes Bleach calcs, part 2. The purpose of this thread will be to discuss the current Gran Rey Cero calc, and compare its accuracy to a new calc I've made.

The Old Calc
  • The current calc finds how much energy it would require to destroy with the surface area of Las Noches.
  • My issue with this calc is that we can do better. As in we know the size, shape, and thickness of Las Noches. Meaning that we can calculate the destruction of the structure as opposed to an area of land equal in size to the surface area of said structure. For example, if someone demolishes a building with a blast, you wouldn't take the area of land the building sits on and calc the destruction of that size plot of land, you would calc the destruction of the building.

The New Calc
  • This calc takes the volume of Las Noches's dome, using the accepted measurements for its dimensions, along with the accepted material of Las Noches to find the energy yeild of destroying the structure. However, this is an inherent lowball as each Espada has their own castle and their are numerous pillars scattered within Las Noches, which would mean the Gran Rey Cero would be busting more than just the dome; however, not every castle and pillar is shown and I'm not wasting my time pixel scaling every structure within LN.
  • Regarding the use of vaporization over pulverization, there's a couple points. First, Gran Rey Cero is regarded as the pinnacle of Ceros, to which we see that characters can vaporize with regular Ceros, Cero Oscuras, Grimmjow vaporizes the top of Luppi and again presumably the top of another Arrancar, Nel's Cero Doble burns Nnoitra, Renji's raw reiatsu vaporizes Ilfort's horn (practically every Espada upscales this Renji too), we see Starrk's Cero burn Shunsui's cloak from just grazing it, additionally CFYOW states Grimmjow burned away part of Luppi with his Cero. All of these supporting the fact that the "ultimate Cero" would likely vaporize as well. However, I'm not naive, I only think characters who scale above or have shown vaporization with lesser Ceros should scale to the vaporization value of GRC. For example, Espada 4 and up scaling since Ulq can vaporize with lesser Ceros, or Espada 6 and up scaling to the vaporization value since Grimmjow displayed vaporization with a regular Cero, or Espada 8 and up with the justification being that Szayel > Renji and Renji can vaporize with his raw reiatsu. That should be discussed in this thread.
  • All that being said the fact vaporization is as arguable as it is more than justifies my low-end of pulverization. I don't think anyone will have an issue with pulverization as a low-end method either.
  • Espada ranked 4 and higher scale to the vaporization value in their released states, because Ulquiorra could vaporize with Cero Oscuras in his Resurreccion, and Gran Rey Cero is more potent than Cero Oscuras. All other Espada/Espada forms scale to the pulverization value. Additionally, the release of Espada ranked 4 and higher’s Resurreccion scale to the pulverization value for being able to destroy Las Noches, implied to be on the same level as Gran Rey Cero.

Scaling for Espada
  • Overarching scaling (including this here so I don’t have to repeat it for each Espada)
    • If an Espada has a lower number they scale above any Espada with a higher number, only in terms of attack potency (Espada 1’s power > Espada 2’s power). I’m going to link an IG post that is essentially a compilation of every statement regarding Espada rankings, because I’m too lazy to copy it over scan by scan.
    • All Espada scale above the Fraccion and Privaron Espada in base. (We already do this)
    • Espada ranked 4 and up scale to Gran Rey Cero with their Resurreccion due to Ulquiorra’s statement, and Espada 6 and up scale to Gran Rey Cero with their Resurreccion because Resurreccion Grimmjow could fight a Hollow Ichigo who no-sold Base Grimmjow’s Gran Rey Cero.
    • If an Espada would scale above the Gran Rey Cero calc through other scaling or perhaps their released states scale above Gran Rey Cero, they obviously would scale to the higher value. Then their amplified attacks would simply be rated as “higher” than their current scaling.
  • Yammy
    • Tier: 6-C, 6-B with GRC | At least 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, 6-A with GRC | At least 6-B, High 6-B with CO, 6-A with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res | Angry Res
  • Aaroniero
    • Tier: 6-C, 6-B with GRC | 6-C, High 6-C with CO, 6-B with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Szayel
    • Tier: 6-C, 6-B with GRC | 6-C, High 6-C with CO, 6-B with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Zommari
    • Tier: 6-C, 6-B with GRC | 6-C, High 6-C with CO, 6-B with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Grimmjow
    • Tier: At least 6-C, 6-B with GRC | 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, higher with GRC and Desgarron
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Nnoitra
    • Tier: At least 6-C, 6-B with GRC | 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, higher with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Ulquiorra
    • Tier: 6-B, higher with GRC | 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, 6-A with GRC | At least 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, 6-A with GRC, higher with Lanza
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Harribel
    • Tier: At least 6-B, higher with GRC | At least 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, 6-A with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Baraggan
    • Tier: At least 6-B, higher with GRC | At least 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, 6-A with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Starrk
    • Tier: At least 6-B, higher with GRC | At least 6-B, 6-B+ with CO, 6-A with GRC
    • Keys: Base | Res
  • Consistency notes
    • Res Ulq scales to ~70 teratons with CO via the scaling chain and his CO is calc’d to ~34 teratons, this shows that my GRC calc is uber consistent with our CO calc. Hollow Bankai Ichigo scales to Res Grimmjow, and shatters one Desgarron claw (there are ten total), meaning he also scales to a tenth of Desgarron, which is around Res Grimmjow’s physicals (aka the fight is consistent with the attack amp multipliers).

Conclusion
  • All in all, we know the dimensions of LN, it should be no question that finding a method that calcs the destruction of said structure is better than a method that calcs the destruction of a plot of land = to the area LN occupies. I feel the meat of the discussion should be surrounding, whether we use the vaporization end and/or who that end applies to. Destroying a massive castle the size of a country being only large island level never made intuitive sense anyhow.
 
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Oh yeah I should mention that I asked for this to be evaluated but no one did, so the double purpose of this thread is to bring attention to the calc lol. I used accepted values and just found a volume, and did simple destruction calcs based on values from the vsbw page so it should be fine.
 
I've mentioned before that I feel like the feat is too vague to have a calc like this used, but, if it does get accepted, vaporization should be used.

The OP has included plenty of evidence supporting the fact that Cero's vaporize and I was already under the impression that they were all accepted to do so from previous threads that are most likely unfortunately deleted by now since they were from before the forum move.
 
Wouldn’t this upgrade base Ulquiorra (along with Harribel, Barragan, Starrk and Yammy) since he’s > Hollow Bankai Ichigo, who dissipated Grimmjow’s GRC?
 
If you peep the old calc it also includes the scaling of GRC.

But to answer your question depending on how we treat the feat this is just a general Espada upgrade.
 
Could there be anything wrong with splitting the difference and have "at least 'Cero AP based on explosion/pulzerization', likely 'Cero AP based on vaporization'"?

Also, for the original calc I did, I assumed a 70% hollowness to account for any structures inside the dome
 
Could there be anything wrong with splitting the difference and have "at least 'Cero AP based on explosion/pulzerization', likely 'Cero AP based on vaporization'"?
We've never done something like that before but I'm not against it.

Also, for the original calc I did, I assumed a 70% hollowness to account for any structures inside the dome
I told KingTempest that if this CRT passes I'll update the calc by pixel scaling every structure in LN I didn't bother now because I didn't wanna spend hours just for it not to pass.
 
Howdy y’all I’m gonna put this CRT on hold for a day or two, I was talking with IMade and he brought up a couple excellent points. I need to update and fix a few things with the calc. I also am going to include some updated scaling, small things like splitting their physicals from the GRC. I’ll let y’all know when this is ready to continue!
 
Are we still gonna be backscaling Ichigo’s stats?
Let's leave any type of non-GRC directly related questions until if this calc gets okay'd for use. I include Espada because it is their attack. Anything else isn't relevant to the thread atm.
 
Ah man, I’m honestly not too sure about this the more I think on it. I feel like even with the Espada scaling in the op, its making everything a little wonky
 
Check their profiles, it’s more or less how we already scale them (just with different values cuz different calcs)

Also how…
 
Check their profiles, it’s more or less how we already scale them (just with different values cuz different calcs)

Also how…
Well, take Ulquiorra for instance, he’s 6B in base, with hollowfied bankai Ichigo also being 6B. Then in resurrection he’s 6B, then in segunda etapa he’s 6B, all of them scaling to 7 teratons. If you were too add the multiplier he’d be 35 teratons with his CO being 350 teratons which would mean he should’ve outright destroyed Ichigo when he hit him with it considering it’d be 50 times stronger than him.

then you have H2 Ichigo who scales to to his Lanza for crushing it like a grape, so he’d be 6A so going by the scaling right now, he’d by like over 100 times stronger than Ulquiorra. I haven’t read the fight in a while but I’m pretty sure Ulquiorra was able to parry some attacks. Idk man, I’m having a hard time buying R2 and base Ulquiorra literally both scaling to 7 teratons. I could go further but no the scaling is not good at all
 
then you have H2 Ichigo who scales to to his Lanza for crushing it like a grape, so he’d be 6A so going by the scaling right now, he’d by like over 100 times stronger than Ulquiorra. I haven’t read the fight in a while but I’m pretty sure Ulquiorra was able to parry some attacks. Idk man, I’m having a hard time buying R2 and base Ulquiorra literally both scaling to 7 teratons. I could go further but no the scaling is not good at all
In no way, shape, or form, is SE Ulq relative to FH Ichigo.

FH Ichigo crushed his strongest attack with his bare hand, it’s as you said. So why are we gonna try and say SE Ulq is relative?

Dare I say that assuming a 5-10x combat ability multiplier inherently means Ulq got a 5x AP amp may be the poor assumption.
 
In no way, shape, or form, is SE Ulq relative to FH Ichigo.

FH Ichigo crushed his strongest attack with his bare hand, it’s as you said. So why are we gonna try and say SE Ulq is relative?

Dare I say that assuming a 5-10x combat ability multiplier inherently means Ulq got a 5x AP amp may be the poor assumption.
That’s still kinda ignoring the other important parts of my post.. you can’t seriously believe PFGF Ichigo who over powered base Ulquiorra who is also 7 teratons Scales to the same calc. When R1 was able to easily defeat Ichigo and almost kill him with a single strike if he didn’t use a getsuga to offset Ulquiorra’s attack. Then he transforms further and continues to dominate Ichigo. The scaling is seriously ****** right now because of this calc

no matter how you look at it, based on the scaling you and Imade made, base Ulquiorra and R1 and R2 scale to literally the same stats
 
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Grimmjow's GRC < Grimmjow Fight Mask Ichigo =< Ulg Fight Bankai Ichigo < base Ulquiorra < Ulq Fight Mask Ichigo < Rez Ulquiorra

Grimmjow Fight Ichigo would be 7 teratons, then Ulq Fight Bankai Ichigo would scale to that as he grew stronger, then Ulq FIght Mask Ichigo would be 35 Teratons tnx to the Hollowfication multiplier, and Rez Ulquiorra would be at least that.

While CO didn't instantly one-shotted Ichigo, it pretty much took him out of the fight.
 
no matter how you look at it, based on the scaling you and Imade made, base Ulquiorra and R1 and R2 scale to literally the same stats
Why are they scaling to the same numbers? We would just scale them to being stronger via the multipliers and everyone upscales from the 7 teratons.
Dare I say that assuming a 5-10x combat ability multiplier inherently means Ulq got a 5x AP amp may be the poor assumption.
Why would you say such a thing? Sayonara Bankai multipliers. It was cool having you while we did but Arc randomly wanted to watch the world burn more than Tier 2 Bleach could achieve.
 
The only information we’re given is this statement from Ulquiorra.

“Under the canopy of Las Noches two things are forbidden. The first is the Gran Rey Cero which only the Espadas employ. And the other is the release by Espadas beyond Cuatro. Both are so powerful that they could destroy Las Noches itself.”

The issues I see for it are;

1) The other method Ulquiorra mentions that can destroy Las Noches is the release of the Espadas which has not been suggested to have anything to do with vaporizing or pulverizing the entire volume of the structure. If it is possible for Las Noches to be destroyed through other means, then that doesn’t necessarily mean we need to assume that the Gran Rey Cero would destroy Las Noches by vaporizing the entire structure.

2) Destroying Las Noches doesn’t necessarily require total destruction either. A large portion of Las Noches’ structure could be broken to make it “destroyed”. It’s not like it was stated there would be no rubble left behind, or no trace of Las Noches. We can see the state of Las Noches in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc and personally I’d call this Las Noches being in a state of effectively “destroyed” even though large portions of the overall structure are intact. The fact is “destroying” something can just mean breaking it apart, knocking down walls, collapsing structures, etc. It doesn’t mean that every single cubic centimeter of a hundreds of kilometers wide structure needs to be pulverized or reduced to dust.

3) An attack vaporizing a certain amount of material doesn’t necessarily mean it will produce the same effect on a much more massive scale. If we see a character effortlessly vaporize several cubic meters of stone with an attack for example, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the same attack could vaporize several cubic kilometres of the same material just as effortlessly. Same is true for pulverization.

4) Grimmjow’s anti feat / the size of the Gran Rey Cero. The only Gran Rey Cero we’ve seen in the manga itself from one of the Espada is one from Grimmjow and while it is big for a Cero, it is absolutely nowhere near the size required to destroy something that is a couple of hundred kilometers wide. I think we’d need more evidence than just Ulquiorra’s statement to say that the Espada can produce a Gran Rey Cero that is hundreds of kilometers across.
 
1) The other method Ulquiorra mentions that can destroy Las Noches is the release of the Espadas which has not been suggested to have anything to do with vaporizing or pulverizing the entire volume of the structure. If it is possible for Las Noches to be destroyed through other means, then that doesn’t necessarily mean we need to assume that the Gran Rey Cero would destroy Las Noches by vaporizing the entire structure.
The only instance I assume vaporization for GRC is for characters who scale above Res Ulq. Due to Res Ulq’s CO vaporizing half of the dome of LN.


2) Destroying Las Noches doesn’t necessarily require total destruction either. A large portion of Las Noches’ structure could be broken to make it “destroyed”. It’s not like it was stated there would be no rubble left behind, or no trace of Las Noches. We can see the state of Las Noches in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc and personally I’d call this Las Noches being in a state of effectively “destroyed” even though large portions of the overall structure are intact. The fact is “destroying” something can just mean breaking it apart, knocking down walls, collapsing structures, etc. It doesn’t mean that every single cubic centimeter of a hundreds of kilometers wide structure needs to be pulverized or reduced to dust.
While you’re not inherently wrong here, this doesn’t address the core reasons why vaporization and pulverization were chosen. Yes destroying can mean many things, which is why further context is needed to decide what it means.


3) An attack vaporizing a certain amount of material doesn’t necessarily mean it will produce the same effect on a much more massive scale. If we see a character effortlessly vaporize several cubic meters of stone with an attack for example, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the same attack could vaporize several cubic kilometres of the same material just as effortlessly. Same is true for pulverization.
The issue is we see CO vaporize like 1/4-1/5 of LN so we know a lesser Cero does have that sort of DC. Meanwhile GRC is the “ultimate Cero” that can destroy LN. clearly indicating it’s of that scale.


4) Grimmjow’s anti feat / the size of the Gran Rey Cero. The only Gran Rey Cero we’ve seen in the manga itself from one of the Espada is one from Grimmjow and while it is big for a Cero, it is absolutely nowhere near the size required to destroy something that is a couple of hundred kilometers wide. I think we’d need more evidence than just Ulquiorra’s statement to say that the Espada can produce a Gran Rey Cero that is hundreds of kilometers across.
We never actual see the explosion go off because Ichigo destroys the attack. So this isn’t really a fair point.
 
"4) Grimmjow’s anti feat / the size of the Gran Rey Cero. The only Gran Rey Cero we’ve seen in the manga itself from one of the Espada is one from Grimmjow and while it is big for a Cero, it is absolutely nowhere near the size required to destroy something that is a couple of hundred kilometers wide. I think we’d need more evidence than just Ulquiorra’s statement to say that the Espada can produce a Gran Rey Cero that is hundreds of kilometers across."

Grim's GRC was blocked by Ichigo, so this shouldn't count as an anti feat.
 
"4) Grimmjow’s anti feat / the size of the Gran Rey Cero. The only Gran Rey Cero we’ve seen in the manga itself from one of the Espada is one from Grimmjow and while it is big for a Cero, it is absolutely nowhere near the size required to destroy something that is a couple of hundred kilometers wide. I think we’d need more evidence than just Ulquiorra’s statement to say that the Espada can produce a Gran Rey Cero that is hundreds of kilometers across."

Grim's GRC was blocked by Ichigo, so this shouldn't count as an anti feat.
The Grimmjow point isn't one I feel as strongly appoint because you're right that it was blocked. But speculating on what would have happened if it hadn't been blocked, it would have continued spreading out in a general beam-shape as Cero's do, and it probably would have punctured a great big whole in the dome of Las Noches. This is the scenario Ulquiorra spoke about as "something you shouldn't do inside the dome of Las Noches", but that beam, even if it grew to be fantastically wide, still wouldn't have destroyed the entire volume of Las Noches, just due to its shape. For a Cero to take out the entire structure, it would have to be fired from the outside and grow wide enough to encompass everything.
 
Arguing the potential shape of the cero is a weird argument imo since CO wasn’t some fantastically wide Cero either and still vaped 40-45% of the dome. It simply hit a portion as evidenced by its size and Ulq saying how he “grazed it” and poof, a very decent chunk was missing. Even Zangetsu’s cero being released at the dome punched an enormous hole much larger than the width of the cero when it was released. Ceros don’t simply hit what would be caught within the cone/cylinder that gets released but consistently strike far more.
 
Honestly I wouldn’t be opposed to adding a violent fragmentation end, and creating a poll for:
A) Espada 4+ Res scale to vaporization, everything else is pulverization
B) Espada 4+ Res scale to vaporization, everything else is violent fragmentation
C) Some other split of whatever
 
Honestly I wouldn’t be opposed to adding a violent fragmentation end, and creating a poll for:
A) Espada 4+ Res scale to vaporization, everything else is pulverization
B) Espada 4+ Res scale to vaporization, everything else is violent fragmentation
C) Some other split of whatever
Why a violent fragmentation end? And wouldn’t their stats basically be the same as they are now if that’s the case ?
 
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