False R>F Shadow Fight

[Jepilstiltskin]

Given this thread, it is now possible for verses with R>F Transcendence to be evaluated for certain tiers without requiring explicit 1-A-level feats. As such, I'd like to apply that standard to Shadow Fight while waiting for this thread to finally pass, whether that takes another few months or a few years. That said, I honestly have no idea how quickly either thread is going to be resolved. As a result, the proposed tier would ultimately depend on timing.

If this revision is evaluated before the aforementioned thread is accepted, then the rating would be “Low 1-C” under the current standards. If it is evaluated afterward, then it would instead qualify for “1-C, possibly 1-A”. Likewise, if this revision is accepted first as “Low 1-C”, but the aforementioned thread is later approved, the rating would subsequently be upgraded to “1-C, possibly 1-A” to reflect the revised standards.

In any case, here is the explanation:

Spoiler: Feats

Beyond the world of Shadow Fight lies another reality: the world of the Real, the Real World, and ultimately the realm of the creators behind Shadow Fight and everything within it. This is a reality where everything seen throughout Shadow Fight is treated as mere fiction and plaything, a script and collection of film roles in the Architect's hand, a film production with actors, a game, a stage where everyone plays a predetermined role, a plot, and even words on paper. Ultimately, the lives of the characters are viewed as nothing more than a fantasy narrative.

The entirety of existence is directed and controlled by these beings as though it were following a script, and there's literally nothing they could do to prevent it as everything even down to this moment is a cause of writing. This is evidently true, as everything is just a part of Architect's figment spoiled-mind, and that everything is possible in his head. These higher entities are represented as originating from Nekki itself, as demonstrated by the Puppeteer controlling the Shadow Fight 2 VK account (translation), and by Architect possessing every Nekki game in existence within what he calls the “Creator's Archive”. This interpretation is further supported by a developer statement confirming that Architect serves as the screenwriter of Shadow Fight 2 and that his appearance is intended to break the fourth wall. Given the text is very straightforward, I don't think we need an official translation for that. This is also directly referenced by his armor, appropriately titled “Fourth Wall”, which features a shattered-glass design symbolizing the concept of fourth-wall breaking.

These beings possess the authority to destroy the game world and rewrite it from scratch, all for the purpose of entertaining the audience. The Architect later demonstrates this once again during his appearance in Shades, where his entire role within the event is to assist the player in completing it. At one point, even Shadow appears confused by Architect's behavior, prompting Architect to explain that his actions are for the audience. Importantly, this scene implies that the game-world mechanics themselves are canon. As a result, concepts such as HP, damage values, and similar gameplay systems possess in-universe legitimacy rather than existing solely as gameplay abstractions.

The validity of this interpretation is further reinforced by the Architect's ability to retroactively alter the narrative. He rewrote the stakes of an event, transforming what was originally a relatively boring or as Architect puts it a “cliche” situation into a clear and more serious intent solely to satisfy the audience's expectations. Notably, these alterations occurred before the event itself even began, as evidenced by Sensei's inability to recognize Ermine despite Ermine's confidence that they already knew each other.

Because the Architect views everything as fictional characters within an ongoing production, his worldview including frequent references to the audience appears completely alien to the inhabitants of the fictional world. He also demonstrates extensive knowledge of virtually every event throughout the Shadow Fight franchise, which is unsurprising given his role in creating them. The only limitation shown is occasional uncertainty regarding the timelines of particular story. As everything is possible in his head, he is even capable of creating a personal “training arc” for Shadow, allowing him to become stronger in less than a minute.

For your information, Shadow Fight had previously been proposed for a Low 1-C rating through R>F Transcendence. The reasoning itself was generally considered logical, but the proposal happened at a time when the standards regarding R>F Transcendence were in the process of changing. As a result, several votes shifted toward disagreement, not necessarily because the argument was unsound, but because the underlying standards were uncertain.

With that in mind, I believe the evidence presented here is sufficiently clear and should, at the very least, warrant classification as a False R>F relationship under the current framework.

Agree:
Neutral: @ActuallySpaceMan42
Disagree:

 

[AlexSamDen]

This interpretation is further supported by a developer statement confirming that Architect serves as the screenwriter of Shadow Fight 2 and that his appearance is intended to break the fourth wall. Given the text is very straightforward, I don't think we need an official translation for that. This is also directly referenced by his armor, appropriately titled “Fourth Wall”, which

The wiki doesn't allow for the use of MTL, so you still need a translation for this scan

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

The wiki doesn't allow for the use of MTL, so you still need a translation for this scan

That sucks, given that it's very straightforward and I don't really think it means anything other than what it says. Isn't there some leniency for cases like this? I don't have the original screenshot available... well don't blame me brother, I took that scan from the original thread that's two years old. I don't even technically have that scan in my gallery anymore.

 

[AlexSamDen]

That sucks, given that it's very straightforward and I don't really think it means anything other than what it says. Isn't there some leniency for cases like this? I don't have the original screenshot available... well don't blame me brother, I took that scan from the original thread that's two years old. I don't even technically have that scan in my gallery anymore.

That's honestly for staff to decide, although you can inquire the person who made the original thread of the source

Or Rey searching it on the Internet and its many forums

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

That's honestly for staff to decide, although you can inquire the person who made the original thread of the source

Or Rey searching it on the Internet and its many forums

I'm the one who made the original thread... that is to say, the original scan simply isn't in my gallery anymore.

But I'm generally okay if this feat isn't included, since it barely does anything anyway. I guess I can just delete this or wait until the staff decides.

 

[KaramcaS]

Bro

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bro

Huh?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Thanganimator]

I guess people prefer to call it False R>F rather than Quantitative R>F.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I guess people prefer to call it False R>F rather than Quantitative R>F.

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

I guess people prefer to call it False R>F rather than Quantitative R>F.

I mean, it IS shorter and a bit easier to get at a glance.

 

[Ball_of_light]

I mean, it IS shorter and a bit easier to get at a glance.

Agreed. Does get the point across immediately (at least for me)

 

[Dark_The_Heroes]

the architect appeared only twice in the game, and they are already trying to give him LVL 1 for pretentious speeches.

some of the arguments are really true, but only, the architect, lost to the shadow and bluntly said that he could not control his fate.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

One issue with this is that we don't see the architect's actual superiority. Most of the feats present can be chalked up to Text Manipulation, Plot Manipulation & 4th Wall Awareness/Breaking.

There has to be something like them using an Avatar, or having a higher True Form, or reducing their dimensionality, something that shows they're not on the same dimensional level as the rest of the verse, especially since they are fought against and interacted with.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

One issue with this is that we don't see the architect's actual superiority. Most of the feats present can be chalked up to Text Manipulation, Plot Manipulation & 4th Wall Awareness/Breaking.

There has to be something like them using an Avatar, or having a higher True Form, or reducing their dimensionality, something that shows they're not on the same dimensional level as the rest of the verse, especially since they are fought against and interacted with.

We literally have the Player (basically Undertale player but Shadow Fight us) controlling them. On top of that, we perceive them as fiction. We can control them, delete them, and, in the grander scheme of things, they wouldn't even exist without the Architect and us. Given how massive the Shadow Fight cosmology is, especially with the Void stuff, their existence is fundamentally dependent on higher beings such as the Architect. Case in point, their medium is explicitly that of a game. Neither we nor the beings of the Real World actually participate within the game world itself. That's how far removed (and consequently how superior) we are in relation to them.

Also, I don't think we need to be this strict when it comes to Quantitative R>F. If we push the requirement for “superiority” too hard, then what exactly distinguishes it from actual Qualitative R>F? Quantitative R>F is supposed to cover cases where a fiction-reality relationship exists, but lacks the stronger form of ontological superiority normally associated with Qualitative R>F in the first place.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

the architect appeared only twice in the game, and they are already trying to give him LVL 1 for pretentious speeches.

Not an argument.

some of the arguments are really true, but only, the architect, lost to the shadow and bluntly said that he could not control his fate.

I'm not gonna entertain you with this bro. A reading-comprehension would really help you to know that Architect is bullshitting Shadow. It's already been debunked here.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Also, I don't think we need to be this strict when it comes to Quantitative R>F. If we push the requirement for “superiority” too hard, then what exactly distinguishes it from actual Qualitative R>F? Quantitative R>F is supposed to cover cases where a fiction-reality relationship exists, but lacks the stronger form of ontological superiority normally associated with Qualitative R>F in the first place.

It's typically when R > F has anti-feats. And since this qualifies as a Tier Jump, it still needs to meet the requirements of a Tier Jump. False R > F can act as evidence for a Tiering upgrade, but you still need to provide evidence.

If the Architect is Low 1-C, but the Player Character can freely interact with them, or even beat them, then what evidence is there of their superiority?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

If the Architect is Low 1-C, but the Player Character can freely interact with them, or even beat them, then what evidence is there of their superiority?

We (The Player) and the Architect are assumed to exist within the same reality, the Real World. The fact that the Architect can lose and be interacted with can be explained by how obsessed he is with involving himself in our experience.

This is already addressed in the OP. In one event, the Architect serves virtually no narrative purpose other than helping us clear it, to the point of directly increasing our damage output and improving the rewards we receive. On top of that, his HP is among the lowest in the entire game. When compared to characters such as Tenebris, who possesses roughly a thousand times more HP, the disparity becomes absurdly large unless the Architect is deliberately lowering himself to operate within the game.

This interpretation is further supported by his own statements. At one point, he claims that Shadow has “freed” himself from him, yet in the very next dialogue he openly admits that he still has plans for Shadow and expects him to witness them. This mirrors his later remarks about roleplaying, which ultimately foreshadowed his future appearances and continued involvement with Shadow. In other words, Shadow is clearly NOT free from this guy. The same event even features characters such as Ermine, who establish that everything occurring is ultimately part of a setup regardless of how elaborate it appears.

All of this points toward the same conclusion, which that the Architect is intentionally lowering himself. All for the sake of the audience's entertainment, a motive he himself explicitly confirms on multiple occasions.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

It's typically when R > F has anti-feats. And since this qualifies as a Tier Jump, it still needs to meet the requirements of a Tier Jump. False R > F can act as evidence for a Tiering upgrade, but you still need to provide evidence.

If the Architect is Low 1-C, but the Player Character can freely interact with them, or even beat them, then what evidence is there of their superiority?

Oh yeah, given that the Architect is shown to own all of Nekki's games (or at the very least serves as a representation of Nekki itself), that would imply that the Shadow Fight universe is just one of many universes existing beneath or outside of his level of reality, all of which were created by the Architect. Like how Vector and Shadow Fight is separate in their cosmology, and Architect can access all of them because he created them.

This would further support the idea that these worlds function as isolated works of fiction (a multiple separate game) from his perspective and occupy a lower position in the hierarchical structure. In other words, the notion that they are subordinate fictional realities within a broader framework does appear to exist in this case.

 

[Dark_The_Heroes]

Not an argument

The argument is that it makes no sense to give a "1-A" level, for R > F, in a Fight with a shadow. because there are no corresponding achievements, and attempts to tie level criteria by any means to achievements that do not have them are ridiculous.


why, according to this logic, an empty room does not have the same lvl, because for it the simulated universe is nothing and just a set of data. also R>F. this way you can get a higher lvl!

I repeat, one way or another, most of what you say is true to some extent. but the architect has a "1-C" at best. for it exists at an indefinite height relative to the "abyss" (in the original Russian, emptiness" is an "abyss"), which includes an infinite number of worlds/ Universe, each of which contains potentially an infinite number of timelines and sub-planes.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

The argument is that it makes no sense to give a "1-A" level, for R > F, in a Fight with a shadow. because there are no corresponding achievements, and attempts to tie level criteria by any means to achievements that do not have them are ridiculous.

I'm not arguing 1-A R>F, lmao. Do you ever heard of Quantitative (or False) R>F? This term exist as of a few days ago, and I'm trying to apply this into the verse. It's not an actual Qualitative R>F where it grants 1-A.

 

[Thanganimator]

The argument is that it makes no sense to give a "1-A" level, for R > F, in a Fight with a shadow. because there are no corresponding achievements, and attempts to tie level criteria by any means to achievements that do not have them are ridiculous.


why, according to this logic, an empty room does not have the same lvl, because for it the simulated universe is nothing and just a set of data. also R>F. this way you can get a higher lvl!

I repeat, one way or another, most of what you say is true to some extent. but the architect has a "1-C" at best. for it exists at an indefinite height relative to the "abyss" (in the original Russian, emptiness" is an "abyss"), which includes an infinite number of worlds/ Universe, each of which contains potentially an infinite number of timelines and sub-planes.

Bro

 

[Dark_The_Heroes]

Do you ever heard of Quantitative (or False) R>F

No, I've never heard of it.
for me, first of all, R>F is a form of qualitative difference. which, depending on the universe, has any lvl.

 

[Thanganimator]

No, I've never heard of it.
for me, first of all, R>F is a form of qualitative difference. which, depending on the universe, has any lvl.

Yeah, it was added recently.

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Dark_The_Heroes]

Yeah, it was added recently

Bruch, all these divisions of R>F, into transcendence and false....


in any case, if we take this measure of division. The architect has a "1-C" as someone who stands on the abyss, which is a multidimensional structure (contains infinite worlds that contain potentially infinite timelines)

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Oh yeah, given that the Architect is shown to own all of Nekki's games (or at the very least serves as a representation of Nekki itself), that would imply that the Shadow Fight universe is just one of many universes existing beneath or outside of his level of reality, all of which were created by the Architect. Like how Vector and Shadow Fight is separate in their cosmology, and Architect can access all of them because he created them.

This would further support the idea that these worlds function as isolated works of fiction (a multiple separate game) from his perspective and occupy a lower position in the hierarchical structure. In other words, the notion that they are subordinate fictional realities within a broader framework does appear to exist in this case.

Hmm, I'm divided. The statements are there, but the fact that he's constantly just shown as another character in the verse makes it confusing.

I'm neutral for now, but I'll change my vote based on how other staff members evaluate it.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Hmm, I'm divided. The statements are there, but the fact that he's constantly just shown as another character in the verse makes it confusing.

I'm neutral for now, but I'll change my vote based on how other staff members evaluate it.

Could you tag other staff members that would be willing to evaluate this, please? Perhaps the one who is participating in the False R>F thread.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@Vietthai96

Join me in the trenches again.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm mostly share the same opinion as Spaceman, there should be some showing of superiority for False R > F, because you can actually have Reality - Fiction relationship without having superiority. We have a lot of this across fiction

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I'm mostly share the same opinion as Spaceman, there should be some showing of superiority for False R > F, because you can actually have Reality - Fiction relationship without having superiority. We have a lot of this across fiction

Well, he's leaning toward neutral as of now. He does acknowledge the connection and the statements regarding superiority, but he's still unsure because he seems to view the Architect as just another character within the setting (which is literally not the case, but that's apparently how he's interpreting it). I mean, if he's just another simple character from the game, then that makes the Player is too from the game. They clearly didn't, they work outside of it, we, work outside of the game. See some of my argument to SpaceMan in regard to this.

So, are you neutral on it as well?

 

[Thanganimator]

This CRT is false like it's name

 

[Vietthai96]

So, are you neutral on it as well?

Yeah, i'm mostly neutral, leaning toward disagree

 

[Thanganimator]

I'm mostly share the same opinion as Spaceman, there should be some showing of superiority for False R > F, because you can actually have Reality - Fiction relationship without having superiority. We have a lot of this across fiction

So how does the superiority False R>F need?

 

[Vietthai96]

Kind of like A is R > F over B, so A have no power on B while B have absolute control over a

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Yeah, i'm mostly neutral, leaning toward disagree

Could you please elaborate on why you disagree? You seem to be aligning your position with SpaceMan's, but he's mostly neutral at the moment and could potentially end up agreeing, considering that he does acknowledge the element of superiority being presented.

Kind of like A is R > F over B, so A have no power on B while B have absolute control over a

That's literally the case if you read the evidence being presented, though? Literally nobody in the verse is actually free from Architect (as it's just an illusion of free will), and he have absolute control over it. He can simply destroy, rewrite, and it doesn't affect him in any sort of way.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This CRT is false like it's name

Don't even joke lad. This isn't the time.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Hmm, I'm divided. The statements are there, but the fact that he's constantly just shown as another character in the verse makes it confusing.

I'm neutral for now, but I'll change my vote based on how other staff members evaluate it.

Oh yeah, I'd also like to ask, how do you view the Animator from Family Guy as qualifying for False R>F when there's comparatively little evidence of superiority, whereas the Architect has dozens of examples supporting that interpretation and you're still neutral on it?

If we're being strict about this idea of “superiority”, especially in the context of actual dimensional distinctions, Family Guy itself shows instances of Stewie being present within that higher world. So by that logic, wouldn't the separation be even less clear-cut there?

I'm just trying to understand where you're drawing the line, because the standards you're applying here don't seem entirely consistent to me.

Kind of like A is R > F over B, so A have no power on B while B have absolute control over a

And since you share the same view with SpaceMan, I'd also like to hear your thought on this.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Oh yeah, I'd also like to ask, how do you view the Animator from Family Guy as qualifying for False R>F when there's comparatively little evidence of superiority, whereas the Architect has dozens of examples supporting that interpretation and you're still neutral on it?

I don't really like whataboutism, but the idea is that we can see exactly how the animators view the Family Guy Universe. To them, it's flat, a piece of paper, whether it be in terms of size or how they physically perceive it; it's clear they're superior.

On the other hand, the Architect only ever interacts and speaks from within the universe, and we never see anything beyond that.

In other words, one can be explained through Plot Manipulation, Text Manipulation & 4th Wall Awareness, while the other still 'requires' some level of dimensional superiority (Large Size, etc) on top of those abilities, because it's displayed.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I don't really like whataboutism, but the idea is that we can see exactly how the animators view the Family Guy Universe. To them, it's flat, a piece of paper, whether it be in terms of size or how they physically perceive it; it's clear they're superior.

On the other hand, the Architect only ever interacts and speaks from within the universe, and we never see anything beyond that.

In other words, one can be explained through Plot Manipulation, Text Manipulation & 4th Wall Awareness, while the other still 'requires' some level of dimensional superiority (Large Size, etc) on top of those abilities, because it's displayed.

That isn't whataboutism, I'm simply asking where you draw the line on the standards.

We see him physically in the game because he's manifesting within the game. We can connect the dots by looking at the various statements showing how the Shadow Fight universe (and, by extension, Nekki's creations as a whole) is treated as nothing more than paper, fiction, or ultimately a game from their perspective. This is especially evident with the Architect, who explicitly acknowledges and incorporates us (the players) into that framework.

Judging their superiority based purely on how they physically appear in the game seems off. In the story, he does have the ability to break the boundary between reality and fiction, as shown through the background imagery and presentation. He don't just showed up out of nowhere, and he's clearly not some normal guy as we see in the dull Real World of ours.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That isn't whataboutism, I'm simply asking where you draw the line on the standards.

We see him physically in the game because he's manifesting within the game. We can connect the dots by looking at the various statements showing how the Shadow Fight universe (and, by extension, Nekki's creations as a whole) is treated as nothing more than paper, fiction, or ultimately a game from their perspective. This is especially evident with the Architect, who explicitly acknowledges and incorporates us (the players) into that framework.

I need this to be more explicit; that's my current stance.