Smurf and NPI

[Astral_Trinity439]

Can a 1-A plot smurf automatically harm the following, or does it need interaction feats against them:

• BDE1
• NEP1 (on aspect 5: space-time)
  NEP1 (on aspect 2 and 4)
• NEP2 (on same aspects as nep1)

The idea was for the Epilogue, but I would like it answered as a general question as well.
That's all

 

[Hecky2222]

I think question might be extended because you aren't specifying what is 1-A hax here?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I think question might be extended because you aren't specifying what is 1-A hax here?

You should already know, future.
Edited

 

[Hecky2222]

You should already know, future.
Edited

Uhhhh @Cipher72 we were debating about why lacking non 1-A concept isn't resistance to 1-A Conceptual Manipulation, meanwhile my past went to this question from different topic

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Uhhhh @Cipher72 we were debating about why lacking non 1-A concept isn't resistance to 1-A Conceptual Manipulation, meanwhile my past went to this question from different topic

it really just depends on if said CM is 1-A cuz a 1-A being is manipulating the concepts of the lower reality, or if the concepts being manipulated are themselves 1-A

 

[Lycoris4812]

Man, 1-A fell off.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

If the plot manipulation is 1-A, then it is obvious that it can affect everything in the lower reality, not just NEP 2.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

If the plot manipulation is 1-A, then it is obvious that it can affect everything in the lower reality, not just NEP 2.

BDE1 is automatically not bound by the lower reality since it lacks the thing composing said reality. So that logic doesn't work.
NEP2 at least on certain aspects is the same

 

[Hecky2222]

I think question/analogy here is strange, you are giving NEP to some aspects that isn't plot and asking if this metaphysical hax(Mind you 1-A one) would affect something you don't lack

Like it is same logic as asking if conceptual nonexistence matters against information manipulation.

But I would leave similar question to staff or whoever comes here since it was curiosity between me and @Cipher72

"What if you lack that said meta aspect but hax is 1A"

For example if you have non 1-A concept NEP how would that translate to 1-A Conceptual Manipulation? Can you resist 1-A hax or get CM diffed?

I asked this from @FriendOfTheTeaParty and got answer Metahax of 1-A is more fundamental so lacking quantitive metaphysical aspect is irrelevant, something I don't disagree with personally cuz why would lacking nomological law would mean you can resist qualitative law? However Cipher give me different interpretation of why would 1-A Fundaments make your NEP aspects magically appear again? Like what makes them participate in said fundamentals? If someone has idea how it works, please feel free to share.

 

[Mizuki67]

I dont think it can extend to 1-A?
Im a larper so idk if the epilogue itself is 1-A or controls 1-A which made it 1-A

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

For the Epilogue, the first 3 in the op are already showcased.

The ability essentially puts it as outside the framework of all reality, what happens in reality is just like us watching cartoons on a TV, we can turn the TV off and thus end the cartoon.

This extends even to spaces which entirely lack space-time, and even the nothingness before everything, time, space, concepts, information etc, because again those can't be compared to the Epilogue, its all basically just characters within a story, which the Epilogue is outside of and can end and restart at any point.

 

[Vesxpura]

Can a 1-A plot smurf automatically harm the following, or does it need interaction feats against them:

• BDE1
• NEP1 (on aspect 5: space-time)
  NEP1 (on aspect 2 and 4)
• NEP2 (on same aspects as nep1)

The idea was for the Epilogue, but I would like it answered as a general question as well.
That's all

no but if it was some other hax like cm it would

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

For the Epilogue, the first 3 in the op are already showcased.

The ability essentially puts it as outside the framework of all reality, what happens in reality is just like us watching cartoons on a TV, we can turn the TV off and thus end the cartoon.

This extends even to spaces which entirely lack space-time, and even the nothingness before everything, time, space, concepts, information etc, because again those can't be compared to the Epilogue, its all basically just characters within a story, which the Epilogue is outside of and can end and restart at any point.

I don't really see BDE1 interaction on her profile. If the whole point of the epilogue is to be able to 'turn off the tv', that is like akin to erasing the entire lower reality, aka space-time. That wouldn't inherently encompass something that already lacks the composition of said 'lower reality', though. Like, that's the whole point of why BDE1 is hard to deal with even if you can nuke the entire cosmology.

I even checked her profile again at your comment just to be sure, but no, I don't see the epilogue having NPI on NEP aspect 5 (any), to say nothing of aspect (Space-time) to begin with
I see her having NPI to nep aspect 1, 2, 3 and 4 yeah, but no type 5. I mean, the profile could just be outdated, no?

Though even if let's say the latter part of your comment is true about the "spaces entirely lacking space-time", that would still not include NEP2 on Aspect 5 [Space-Time]... xd

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Makina has BDE 1, her true form doesnt exist within the hierarchy at all, and cant be reached by anyone, Epilogue explictly still ends her.

Nep 5 i think is just something we didnt care to add, The Prologue is the void before the beginning of everything in existence, concepts, information etc, space-time obviously is included.

Nep 2 doesn't exist currently in verse though.

Edit: Off topic kinda but if this is for Slime vs 6-D Shiro, it doesn't matter if Shiro can't interact with them, the Epilogue has its own will separate from Shiro, so regardless of what happens to Shiro unless you can affect the Epilogue, you can't really incapacitate Shiro, the Epilogue will bring her back, or even just null whatever is affecting her or amp her up a dimensional level so it doesn't work anymore.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Makina has BDE 1, her true form doesnt exist within the hierarchy at all, and cant be reached by anyone, Epilogue explictly still ends her.

oh alr then. Noted.

Nep 5 i think is just something we didnt care to add, The Prologue is the void before the beginning of everything in existence, concepts, information etc, space-time obviously is included.

Fair

Nep 2 doesn't exist currently in verse though.

ig that could be an incon.

Edit: Off topic kinda but if this is for Slime vs 6-D Shiro,

Yeah. Potential tie on 3rd spot

it doesn't matter if Shiro can't interact with them, the Epilogue has its own will separate from Shiro, so regardless of what happens to Shiro unless you can affect the Epilogue, you can't really incapacitate Shiro, the Epilogue will bring her back, or even just null whatever is affecting her or amp her up a dimensional level so it doesn't work anymore.

Yeah, that's why I'm aiming for an incon to 3rd spot lol

 

[Rikimarox2]

I assume those NEP characters are also lacking in the Plot Aspect, yes? If not, then it doesn't really matter if they have all those stuff, since they don't have proof that they are independent of the plot or lacking the aspect of the plot.

Like, say Character A has concept manip (Type whatever the ****)

Character B has NEP2, and is lacking in all aspects except for Concept stuff, since there was no proof that they don't have a concept.

Character A would still be able to affect B, because they are directly affecting an aspect that they don't have any proof of lacking. They aren't directly interacting with the NEP.

This is the same case with Plot. Unless those characters have direct proof of lacking the Plot aspect, they'd be affected nonetheless. If a character were to have, say, Plot Erasure, ie erasing you from the plot (just nonsense), a NEP character would have no defense against it, as they have never interacted or hinted at an aspect of a plot in their respected universe.

Hell, one of the characters I indexed in the wiki, Wang Wei, previously had NEP2 and TD3 (This was before all the 1-A shenanigans), yet if I were to make him fight against Monika from DDLC (which they did fight), he would have no defense against Plot stuff purely since he didn't have any Plot manip resistance.

At least, that's how I understand it.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

BDE1 is automatically not bound by the lower reality since it lacks the thing composing said reality. So that logic doesn't work.

Yeah but BDE 1 characters still physically exist within the lower reality in some capacity, even if they aren't conventionally apart of it. Wouldn't this be just like the whole NEP 2 argument? The one where, if a non 1A NEP 2 character has their entire framework of realms nuked by a 1A which is something they explicitly need to "latch" onto in order to achieve any meaningful physical interactions?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I assume those NEP characters are also lacking in the Plot Aspect, yes? If not, then it doesn't really matter if they have all those stuff, since they don't have proof that they are independent of the plot or lacking the aspect of the plot.

We don't assume plot manip can interact with stuff without interaction feats.
Like:

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.

And people assuming plot hax > everything else was the reason why that plot manip thread was made to clarrify things.

Like, say Character A has concept manip (Type whatever the ****)

Character B has NEP2, and is lacking in all aspects except for Concept stuff, since there was no proof that they don't have a concept.

Character A would still be able to affect B, because they are directly affecting an aspect that they don't have any proof of lacking. They aren't directly interacting with the NEP.

Not really. This example doesn't work either cuz we don't assume by default that, per say, conceptual manip can always interact with NEP on aspect 4, unless said conceptual manip is specifically shown to be able to do that.

Assuming otherwise would just be NLF lol
I mean, that would be equal to assuming that CM from a verse where the character uses it to, like, burn the enemy, will work on NEP, BDE or AE on other stuff like information.

Yeah but BDE 1 characters still physically exist within the lower reality in some capacity, even if they aren't conventionally apart of it.

Not really. They are not a part of it at all, other than being able to exert power in said reality. You could maybe put that ability to exert influence as "part of reality", but that is not required for BDE1 characters to maintain their existence.

That's why we assume BDE1 character don't trace a path in space and time at all.

Wouldn't this be just like the whole NEP 2 argument? The one where, if a non 1A NEP 2 character has their entire framework of realms nuked by a 1A which is something they explicitly need to "latch" onto in order to achieve any meaningful physical interactions?

Not really, no. What you're describing is a "cosmology nuke", which is the very thing that NEP2 and BDE1 type stuff have advantage against, lol

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Not really. They are not a part of it at all, other than being able to exert power in said reality. You could maybe put that ability to exert influence as "part of reality", but that is not required for BDE1 characters to maintain their existence.

That's why we assume BDE1 character don't trace a path in space and time at all.

Not really, no. What you're describing is a "cosmology nuke", which is the very thing that NEP2 and BDE1 type stuff have advantage against, lol

I've heard lots of arguments regarding these, but if that's how we treat it, then I suppose your question would default to, whether these aspects exist within a verse where said character can manip the plot or not, not entirely sure

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can a 1-A plot smurf automatically harm the following, or does it need interaction feats against them:

• BDE1

Depends on how it's used. Obviously, Plot Manipulation can't target something it's never been able to target before, though, because narrative usually encompasses a universe; the array of things it can target is automatically vast.

At the same time, a form of Plot Manipulation that guarantees victory, or defies defeat, could work, since it's targeting the user, not the opponent.

• NEP1 (on aspect 5: space-time)
  NEP1 (on aspect 2 and 4)
• NEP2 (on same aspects as nep1)

Same as above.

 

[Hecky2222]

We don't assume plot manip can interact with stuff without interaction feats.

This is circular. With your reasoning you can go through concept and information also needs to affect BDE 1. Roughly concept = plot = information if they're metaphysical things. We don't have concept/information > plot. This is why in thing you listed you have this:

For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either

If Plot is Metaphysical Hax then obv NEP isn't saving you. Especially space time has nothing to do with metaphysical hax. Not to mention Plot/Concept/Information are technically kind of NPIs in some sense but that's another talk.

Not to mention BDE or lacking space time doesn't mean you lack metaphysical aspect.

Not really, no. What you're describing is a "cosmology nuke", which is the very thing that NEP2 and BDE1 type stuff have advantage against, lol

This is misunderstanding of what DT said. We won't give any thing that lacks space time metaphysical immunity. You are assuming this, means "Yes lacking space time is lacking metaphysical thing"

By cosmology nuke obviously you survive full space erasure cuz you don't have something to target. But would you survive informational, concept erasure? No? Same goes for Plot for being Metaphysical Aspect itself


Obv you can say some plot is different, looney tunes level, whatever. But I feel like this thread is completely downplaying plot as if it is not important aspect and NLFing lack of space time

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

A lack of space-time does not mean the lack of metaphysical aspects nor the preclusion of it. Metaphysical aspects themselves refer to fundamental aspects that are beyond the physical. You do not need to interact with their non-physical BDE type 1 body when you can simply interact with the plot or other metaphysical aspect that governs their being.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

A lack of space-time does not mean the lack of metaphysical aspects nor the preclusion of it. Metaphysical aspects themselves refer to fundamental aspects that are beyond the physical. You do not need to interact with their non-physical BDE type 1 body when you can simply interact with the plot or other metaphysical aspect that governs their being.

It depends on what the Plot Manipulation is actually targeting.

For example, if someone is attempting to use Plot Manipulation to edit the narrative and cause a BDE Type 1 being to spontaneously catch fire, that would not necessarily work unless the Plot Manipulation has evidence of affecting/encompassing beings with that nature in the first place.

Likewise, even if a being's Narrative, Story, or Plot is not itself undimensioned and can be interacted with, that does not automatically mean changes made to the narrative can affect an undimensioned aspect of the being. If the narrative alteration is ultimately being used to influence the being's existence directly, then the same issue arises: the Plot Manipulation would still need to demonstrate the ability to affect something undimensioned.

On the other hand, if the Plot Manipulation is used to delete a character's story entirely, removing them from the narrative, then it may not need to directly affect their BDE Type 1 body at all. Instead, it would be removing their participation in the plot itself. In that case, even if the body remains unaffected, the character could be rendered incapable of interacting with anything that exists as part of the narrative or story, due to lacking it themself.

The same principle applies to other aspects of the character. If their mind or soul does not partake in their BDE Type 1 nature, then those aspects may remain valid targets. Destroying or removing them could still incapacitate or kill the character, despite the BDE Type 1 body itself remaining untouched.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

It depends on what the Plot Manipulation is actually targeting.

For example, if someone is attempting to use Plot Manipulation to edit the narrative and cause a BDE Type 1 being to spontaneously catch fire, that would not necessarily work unless the Plot Manipulation has evidence of affecting/encompassing beings with that nature in the first place.

Likewise, even if a being's Narrative, Story, or Plot is not itself undimensioned and can be interacted with, that does not automatically mean changes made to the narrative can affect an undimensioned aspect of the being. If the narrative alteration is ultimately being used to influence the being's existence directly, then the same issue arises: the Plot Manipulation would still need to demonstrate the ability to affect something undimensioned.

On the other hand, if the Plot Manipulation is used to delete a character's story entirely, removing them from the narrative, then it may not need to directly affect their BDE Type 1 body at all. Instead, it would be removing their participation in the plot itself. In that case, even if the body remains unaffected, the character could be rendered incapable of interacting with anything that exists as part of the narrative or story, due to lacking it themself.

The same principle applies to other aspects of the character. If their mind or soul does not partake in their BDE Type 1 nature, then those aspects may remain valid targets. Destroying or removing them could still incapacitate or kill the character, despite the BDE Type 1 body itself remaining untouched.

The person in the thread is talking about 1-A level Plot Manipulation.

How can a character from a lower reality, even assuming they have NEP Type 2 with all aspects, all kinds of manipulation, BDE, and even Plot Manipulation, still be anything more than fiction from the perspective of a higher reality entity? They are essentially nothing to it.

It is like saying that the author himself cannot erase his own fictional characters simply because they possess these abilities, while in reality he exists on a higher level and can erase, remove, and do whatever he wants with them. By his own will, he is the one who grants those lower reality beings such powers in the first place.

Therefore, any ability operating on a higher reality level should be sufficient to erase any entity from a lower reality, and that entity should not be able to resist it either, even if it has resistance to Plot Manipulation within its own reality. Fiction remains fiction—something unreal and effectively nothingness from the perspective of a higher reality being.

In short, an entity from a lower reality cannot resist a power from a higher reality because it is fictional, and a character from a lower reality cannot affect something that exists on a higher reality level.

 

[Hecky2222]

For example, if someone is attempting to use Plot Manipulation to edit the narrative and cause a BDE Type 1 being to spontaneously catch fire, that would not necessarily work unless the Plot Manipulation has evidence of affecting/encompassing beings with that nature in the first place.

Likewise, even if a being's Narrative, Story, or Plot is not itself undimensioned and can be interacted with, that does not automatically mean changes made to the narrative can affect an undimensioned aspect of the being. If the narrative alteration is ultimately being used to influence the being's existence directly, then the same issue arises: the Plot Manipulation would still need to demonstrate the ability to affect something undimensioned.

Realistically Plot by definition is Metaphysical Aspect which would include both unless proven otherwise.

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

I would think space and non space is same background thing, insofar it would make no sense for some reason your spatial lack, existing as pure soul, mind, abstract being independent from metaphysical thing itself. It would just prove that metaphysical thing isn't fundamental at this point. So for me BDE resisting Plot is more NLF than Plot affecting BDE. Obviously exceptions exist, fiction is fiction

But I agree with your point about plot manipulation usage, cuz you can't assume plot writing just fire manipulation on BDE. Ig same can be said about other meta haxes though.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Makina has BDE 1, her true form doesnt exist within the hierarchy at all, and cant be reached by anyone, Epilogue explictly still ends her.

Nep 5 i think is just something we didnt care to add, The Prologue is the void before the beginning of everything in existence, concepts, information etc, space-time obviously is included.

Nep 2 doesn't exist currently in verse though.

Edit: Off topic kinda but if this is for Slime vs 6-D Shiro, it doesn't matter if Shiro can't interact with them, the Epilogue has its own will separate from Shiro, so regardless of what happens to Shiro unless you can affect the Epilogue, you can't really incapacitate Shiro, the Epilogue will bring her back, or even just null whatever is affecting her or amp her up a dimensional level so it doesn't work anymore.

If this is the slime vs the epilogue then this battle is inconclusive because Rimuru’s immortality is tied to The Great Holy Spirit and the TGHS is akin to the monad/monotheism/Godhead

 

[Vesxpura]

monad/monotheism/Godhead

son im crine. what kinda tensura mk ultra did you come out of

 

[Hecky2222]

If this is the slime vs the epilogue then this battle is inconclusive because Rimuru’s immortality is tied to The Great Holy Spirit and the TGHS is akin to the monad/monotheism/Godhead

Bro noone was talking about Rimuru here

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

son im crine. what kinda tensura mk ultra did you come out of

Sonion, ds soul is prolly referring to ds wank

 

[Legacy30]

Epilogue: NEP2? ACA5? PCP? Those are some fancy text in the book. Get closed.

It would be something like that. Everything that's below 1-A to a 1-A might as well not exist, purely as fiction to it. Doesn't matter how you describe, it's just more ink on the page from their perspective. Those haxes would mean something if they existed in the same ontology, but in this situation? Nah.

Go buy a book that has Sun Wukong or the Buddha in it, read it, then close it and put it on a shelf. Or draw on the pages with crayons if you like. You could even blot out the words related to NEP or whatever. Those characters aren't gonna do anything.

 

[Vesxpura]

might as well not exist, purely as fiction to it. Doesn't matter how you describe, it's just more ink on the page from their perspective. Those haxes would mean something if they existed in the same ontology, but in this situation? Nah.

no? this is the same as saying a character with hde and that same dimension of potency can bypass every ability thats not a hde.

 

[Legacy30]

no? this is the same as saying a character with hde and that same dimension of potency can bypass every ability thats not a hde.

I'm talking purely of qualitative differences. Like in my book analogy, just buy a book that has a HDE or BDE character with as many slop haxes you want, you could rip the book to pieces. A real person is a 1 while a fictional character is a 0.

This is the difference between false R > F and an actual R > F.

You could be a 3D person in a 1-A tier and stomp an infinite dimensional or BDE character in a book because that's just what they are, pure fiction. Spatial and temporal dimensions from the lower reality are irrelevant as much as the rest of everything else.

 

[Hecky2222]

no? this is the same as saying a character with hde and that same dimension of potency can bypass every ability thats not a hde.

there's massive difference between HDE and BDE bro

Which is why BDE 2,3 grants you tier and 5-D HDE won't give you Low 1-C

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Bro noone was talking about Rimuru here

Dawg, there’s the reason the word “If” is here

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

son im crine. what kinda tensura mk ultra did you come out of

Ah a young soul indeed

 

[Hecky2222]

Dawg, there’s the reason the word “If” is here

MEGUMI

 

[Robo432343]

i agree with history regen

 

[Hecky2222]

i agree with history regen

I agree with BDE 1 having 1-A Hax Invulnerability after this revision

 

[Tanin_iver]

I agree with BDE 1 having 1-A Hax Invulnerability after this revision

BDE1 > BDE3