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Soo what is the element system in the end , kids ? A homestuck classaspect.
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Deltarune: Removing Magic Scaling
- Thread starter GodlyCharmander
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GodlyCharmander
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Stop making irrelevant comments and derailing the thread.
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Literally it true lmao
because cats Literally control the game puppets thus cats and puppets aspect is control
GodlyCharmander
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This is irrelevant to the thread. Seriously stop. Go back to the general thread.
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It not "irrelevant" after all if darkness and light are abstract them the element are also abstract aspects
Edit One exemple of this is the relationship bettewen cats and rats in fiction or the cat and mouse game
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Moon_Crasher
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Would it be possible to get the potential energy of Giga Queen dropping the ball down?
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Axorandom0
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I know I started it by bringing it up for Titan scaling, but can we please move the Giga Queen calc conversation to the main discussion thread? It’ll be much easier to talk about it there than here.
GodlyCharmander
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That would be ideal, the titan has its own feat after all.
Moon_Crasher
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I personally disagree with calling it a fake world and that it just has a placebo effect as Berdly would not be in the hospital with a cast around his arm if it was plus the fact the TV was damaged after the dark world where Tenna got his arms cut off aswell we see darkners get damaged in the darkworld not just by magic attacks but actually bleeding from punching the screen and Kris taking damage from a fall in the chapter that has apart of it being about susie learning healing to help Kris
Aswell Ralsie has said that world will fall into chaos aswell as Titans will take form from the Fountains and envelop the land in devastation when even thinking about keeping dark worlds proving it has real world effects aswell after this susie challenges the "not real" statement by saying this that she can feel touch hear ralsie and that normal objects dont have feelings and ralsei confirms that they shouldn't not they don't have them is that they should not have these capabilities yet given them through the dark world
Also the temperature comment it only says "It could be" your imagination not that it IS so using it as so definitive is not correct
Also the sound waves moving as fast as lasers with the cat enemy I feel like the video is kinda misrepresenting it as even though it shot later and is going at different angles and shot at a different angle aswell it still overtakes the soundwaves in speed aswell as this giving a example of the lasers being faster then the sound waves also proving its not moving in tandem its just shot later going at different angles seeming slower but it is faster
I can confidently disagree on the Fake world stuff im neutral on everything else right now
once I have more time to put together a bigger response thats when ill be back
Aswell Ralsie has said that world will fall into chaos aswell as Titans will take form from the Fountains and envelop the land in devastation when even thinking about keeping dark worlds proving it has real world effects aswell after this susie challenges the "not real" statement by saying this that she can feel touch hear ralsie and that normal objects dont have feelings and ralsei confirms that they shouldn't not they don't have them is that they should not have these capabilities yet given them through the dark world
Also the temperature comment it only says "It could be" your imagination not that it IS so using it as so definitive is not correct
Also the sound waves moving as fast as lasers with the cat enemy I feel like the video is kinda misrepresenting it as even though it shot later and is going at different angles and shot at a different angle aswell it still overtakes the soundwaves in speed aswell as this giving a example of the lasers being faster then the sound waves also proving its not moving in tandem its just shot later going at different angles seeming slower but it is faster
I can confidently disagree on the Fake world stuff im neutral on everything else right now
once I have more time to put together a bigger response thats when ill be back
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Yeah, this was the part of the CRT that I disagreed with the most.
It definitely feels like the Dark Worlds are gonna be revealed to be real on some level, and Ralsei's just saying he's not real because he's going through an existential crisis
They are still BASED on imagination and will or whatnot, but they do have a degree of real-world impact and importance (namely Berdly, Tenna, and the Roaring) that can't be easily chalked up as being a massive placebo effect
There are also the eggs that don't change in and out of the Dark Worlds, the Shadow Crystals, etc.
It's fine if Charmander views it differently, but to say it's 100% just an illusion is a bit silly to me when that kinda ruins the story being told
GodlyCharmander
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That's not up to debate, it's objectively a fake world in lore. How fake, is up to debate.
Berdly literally says his arm is just sleeping, meaning there is no damage. You also haven't addressed the rest of the placebo evidence.
He was in a block of ice. The fact Kris is WONDERING if he's cold is evidence that it didn't translate.
Yeah? It's a fantasy version of real objects. Tenna was attacked by the Knight, who is a lightner, a real person, using a real weapon (that was turned into fantasy) attacking a real TV. Their MAGIC is fantasy.
It's two real objects (a real TV and a real lightner) having an interaction made possible by a fantasy world. Of course direct interactions have consequences, that doesn't disprove that the world is a fantasy.
You are hiding the context. Ralsei says the fountains will cover the entire world, and THEN the world would be covered in devastation. They have to bring the entire reality into fantasy for the fancious elements to have any effect.
I'm sorry did you not read the original post?
Susie accepts this is not real later in the same chapter. Brother in christ, she was lying to herself when she initially challenged it.
She has the sensation of feeling, seeing and hearing Ralsei. Just like she has the sensation of eating. Like, brother, I literally explain this in my original post. This doesn't disprove Ralsei's statement.
Also, why are we believing Susie over the "Guy that literally knows everything"?
They are relative. For this to make sense, the laser would need to be 6x faster than the soundwave.
You also, in every point, only addressed one point out of fifteen. And somehow believed they were enough to refute the entire thesis. You don't break a building by destroying just one non-fundamental wall.
I mean, you can't confidently disagree on something that is literally stated by the story. But I will count your vote.
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Following. Buuuut I do agree on the downgrade to 8-A+ and the axing of FTL. Never liked those. The rest I'm neutral on thanks to other arguments from previous threads and whatnot.
GodlyCharmander
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Also, is that really the structural point of the revision? It's evidence that their nature is a fantasy, they can be not 100% fake, that's fine, they're still made from willpower and determination, making them not realistic, which is the main point.
You may disagree with the world being 100% placebo, but the fact the world isn't real by in-universe standards is just the truth. Of course cases of "fake R>F" still allow them to interact together, no problem. That's far from being my main point.
GodlyCharmander
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That's really my main objective, the rest are support for it. I will count your vote on both ends.
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Soo how i vote to agree ?
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The only time she ever kinda agree'd was legit saying its "kinda" a dream not that it IS a dream there was barely any backtracking and plus the point was that Ralsei said they shouldn't
also the fact they have to cover the entire world into fantasy? so that means the fantasy actually does something I dont get your point here if everything really was fake or fantasy there would be no real danger
The fact of the matter after berdly was incased in ice after the dark world was dismissed he was passed out cold and unable to wake up proven by the fact we have never seen him awake after chapter 2 in the weird route its implied to be actually fatal from the fact he was incased in ice within the dark world meaning there are real world effects
You say no real damage and that he just slept on it hospitals dont treat placebo effects and if there was nothing truly wrong with his arm why is it in a cast? Just because there is no visible burn damage does not mean there is nothing wrong with the arm just like how even if berdley wasnt actually cold he was still passed out and never woke up from it as far as we know
and you are acting like I said that disproves everything I even did a edit later I said I would make a bigger response this wasnt debunking everything nor was the fact the lasers being faster was my main point thats nonsensical all I did was point out my main gripes with it and I said I was neutral on everything else aswell besides the fake world
I never stated it was your main point nor was it my intention to I just think saying its a completely fake world isnt true because we have seen real world effects coming from this
also the fact they have to cover the entire world into fantasy? so that means the fantasy actually does something I dont get your point here if everything really was fake or fantasy there would be no real danger
The fact of the matter after berdly was incased in ice after the dark world was dismissed he was passed out cold and unable to wake up proven by the fact we have never seen him awake after chapter 2 in the weird route its implied to be actually fatal from the fact he was incased in ice within the dark world meaning there are real world effects
You say no real damage and that he just slept on it hospitals dont treat placebo effects and if there was nothing truly wrong with his arm why is it in a cast? Just because there is no visible burn damage does not mean there is nothing wrong with the arm just like how even if berdley wasnt actually cold he was still passed out and never woke up from it as far as we know
and you are acting like I said that disproves everything I even did a edit later I said I would make a bigger response this wasnt debunking everything nor was the fact the lasers being faster was my main point thats nonsensical all I did was point out my main gripes with it and I said I was neutral on everything else aswell besides the fake world
I never stated it was your main point nor was it my intention to I just think saying its a completely fake world isnt true because we have seen real world effects coming from this
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I agree with charmander.
GodlyCharmander
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"Only time".
She spoke of it two times. Once when she was desperate. Once when she accepted it was a dream. She does say "she knew it was too good to be real" one dialogue line earlier.
Also you're missing the point. Susie is not a reliable source.
We don't care about her perspective. Ralsei is the "knowledge incarnare", he said it wasn't real, so it wasn't.
What the Susie point expressed was that she came to realize Ralsei was telling the truth, and even though it was true, she didn't care.
Yes, if all of reality is consumed by shadow and replaced by fantasy, the land itself becomes fantasy and that fanciful land is what gets wrapped in devastation. You need to bring down reality to fantasy.
Then yes, they are part of the fantasy, and therefore affected by the fantasy.
Yes,
From his own mind.
Mind you, Ralsei never said anyone would die in the roaring, only that the Lightners would be stuck in an endless mind. Any damage they take is from interacting with the fantasy.
Was Berdly frozen? No. That means the effects of the ice don't translate, only his own perception of taking damage translates.
There is no physical damage, all damage is caused by the imagination.
The fact he can't move his arm is not related to a physical injury, because none occurred.
So unless you're claiming Berdly has taken physical damage, that's still my point. He got tested, and no doctors said he was actually injured. He still claims his wing is sleeping, numb, not in pain.
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It could have affected berdly nerves.
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Know what, I pretty much agree with Reaper on this one, though I do have some different takes.
Even though I do believe it's ok to base the Titans' AP on the Dark Worlds, we simply have no idea how big the Dark World inside the Ch. 4 Titan is, and using the room's size is too presumptive and inaccurate to be a solid rating. The willpower stuff even further exemplifies this, so I agree with that as well.
The FTL stuff is also just too inconsistent and contradictory with all the anti-feats, plus the Soul's light ain't real light, which brings the consistency down even more.
I'm neutral on how to treat the Magic Bullets, they're inconsistent at times, but I don't think we should dismiss them all just because some aren't realistic. That being said, I wouldn't be against removing most of those feats due to inconsistency; I just think it'd be better as a case-by-case thing than an all-across-the-board thing.
As I said earlier, I disagree with the Dark Worlds being illusions, that just feels wrong imo
And yeah, that's it (also, shouldn't we discuss which Titan calc to use since this other accepted one gets 7-C?)
Even though I do believe it's ok to base the Titans' AP on the Dark Worlds, we simply have no idea how big the Dark World inside the Ch. 4 Titan is, and using the room's size is too presumptive and inaccurate to be a solid rating. The willpower stuff even further exemplifies this, so I agree with that as well.
The FTL stuff is also just too inconsistent and contradictory with all the anti-feats, plus the Soul's light ain't real light, which brings the consistency down even more.
I'm neutral on how to treat the Magic Bullets, they're inconsistent at times, but I don't think we should dismiss them all just because some aren't realistic. That being said, I wouldn't be against removing most of those feats due to inconsistency; I just think it'd be better as a case-by-case thing than an all-across-the-board thing.
As I said earlier, I disagree with the Dark Worlds being illusions, that just feels wrong imo
And yeah, that's it (also, shouldn't we discuss which Titan calc to use since this other accepted one gets 7-C?)
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The issue I had was that the CRT keeps trying to push this fantasy based and not being able to actually affect lightners
while I do agree dark worlds are influnced by themes willpower and imagination. But the story repeatdly shows that dark worlds still produce real consquences
Berdly being hospitalized, remaining unconscious in Weird Route, and having his arm immobilized in a cast are all consquences that are outside of the Dark World. Susie visibly bleeds when smashing the screen Kris takes damage from falling, and Ralsei has healed these types of injuries with magic. Tenna;s TV body is physically damaged after the knight attacks him. Aswell The Roaring if we kept the dark world alive is an actual threat.
The fact we can see hear and feel darkners if we pocket Lancer or rouxls he is also appears in our pocket in the real world. The fact that Ralsei says objects should not feel these things when in response to Susie its all implying the Dark world is creating abnormal but genuine entities, not fake sensations with no substance.
And the :could be your imagination" line is speculative wording from Kris at best, its not definitive narration. Implying that its proof that all Dark World damage is purely in the mind is a stretch.
So even if Dark Worlds are fantasy constructs, that does not automatically mean their attacks, objects, or effects are completely disconnected from reality.
Even if you want to say Berdly is just stuck in a endless mind based on what Ralsei says it still shows that Berdly's condition is still tied to the Dark World and is because of it. Showing that the effects are very real from the Dark World.
while I do agree dark worlds are influnced by themes willpower and imagination. But the story repeatdly shows that dark worlds still produce real consquences
Berdly being hospitalized, remaining unconscious in Weird Route, and having his arm immobilized in a cast are all consquences that are outside of the Dark World. Susie visibly bleeds when smashing the screen Kris takes damage from falling, and Ralsei has healed these types of injuries with magic. Tenna;s TV body is physically damaged after the knight attacks him. Aswell The Roaring if we kept the dark world alive is an actual threat.
The fact we can see hear and feel darkners if we pocket Lancer or rouxls he is also appears in our pocket in the real world. The fact that Ralsei says objects should not feel these things when in response to Susie its all implying the Dark world is creating abnormal but genuine entities, not fake sensations with no substance.
And the :could be your imagination" line is speculative wording from Kris at best, its not definitive narration. Implying that its proof that all Dark World damage is purely in the mind is a stretch.
So even if Dark Worlds are fantasy constructs, that does not automatically mean their attacks, objects, or effects are completely disconnected from reality.
Even if you want to say Berdly is just stuck in a endless mind based on what Ralsei says it still shows that Berdly's condition is still tied to the Dark World and is because of it. Showing that the effects are very real from the Dark World.
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Touche...
LittleGuy99
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I agree with Scout
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My question is why is it forcing this fake world narrative then? Since we've seen obvious consquences.
When berdly's arm gets fried in the Dark World he is unable to use it in the Light World. (Im pretty sure we dont see him use it in the future so all we know his arm is still paralyzed.)
When Berdly gets iced there is a plausibility that he is cold aswell as he is completely unresponsive.
(I dont think I would have to repeat other instances that I have listed before)
They are connected while Berdly may not be frozen solid or you could say there is no burn marks my problem just starts at the its a complete fake placebo effect thing since it is connected the Dark World is real to some extent to cause these type of injuries
Well also in addition you can die in the dark world aka if your health reaches zero your soul shatters and there is a game over screen. In addition to Berdly I feel like this still gives some sort of real aspect to the Dark World to do something like this
This is also can be explained that Kris and Susie have been jumping between dark world and real world and the fact there is a chance his body tempature is low enough for Kris to notice isnt anything to sneeze that either its still a probability and saying just because its speculation means the tempature hasn't changed much feels like an assumption
well Idk if the original post was deleted or not but ill just addon
I do agree that Dark Worlds have fantasy type elements and is will power based but I do not think calling it placebo effects or "just fake sensations" is not the real conclusion either.
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Do you think it could be a mix both placebo with soul stuff?
GodlyCharmander
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The 7-C version is evaluated, not applied.
Anyway
Before addressing the evidence, the foundational error in this response needs to be identified, because it quietly undermines every single example that follows.
The CRT's position, my position, is not that the Dark World has zero connection to reality, produces zero real-world consequences, or that Darkners are completely intangible non-entities.
Nobody claimed that. I never claimed that. There isn't a single line in my original post that says that. You interpreted "fake" like I was saying they were 11-C, that has never been my point.
My point is that the Dark Worlds are "fake", in the canonical perception of the universe of Deltarune. In-universe fake, not "wiki" fake. Interaction is possible for false R>F, it has always been. So you pointing out a bunch of interactions doesn't actually debunk my point in any meaningful capacity. You're punching ghosts, unfortunately.
The position is specifically and precisely that Dark World magic attacks do not operate according to real-world physics in ways that justify speed and AP scaling.
Those are two dramatically different claims, and you have spent your entire response proving the first claim, which was never contested, while leaving the actual claim completely untouched.
Every example of Berdly being hospitalized, Lancer appearing in pockets, Susie bleeding, and Tenna being damaged is evidence that the Dark World has real-world interaction.
None of it is evidence that a magic music note travels at the speed of real sound, or that a "laser" Darkner fires attacks at the speed of real light. The argument needs to actually engage with what the CRT claims, and it doesn't. Everything that follows operates within this structural blind spot.
Here's what I actually claimed:
I quite literally say that there's a distinction between Snowgrave/GIGA Queen's tennis ball being exempt versus speed feats from assumed realistic propagation being removed. This proves the CRT already drew a precise line.
Berdly's hospitalization is being presented as the strongest evidence that Dark World damage is physically real. It is actually, examined carefully, one of the most compelling pieces of evidence for the opposite conclusion, and here is why.
Berdly's arm doesn't work.
He's hospitalized.
He's unconscious in the weird route.
These are all real consequences.
But here is the critical question you never ask: what specifically is wrong with Berdly's arm? The game does not give him burns. It does not give him frostbite. It does not give him tissue damage consistent with the kind of physical attack Noelle's Snowgrave actually is. His arm simply doesn't function. He is hospitalized for a condition that has no identifiable physical cause that the doctors can treat, because there is no physical cause.
The arm is immobilized in a cast not because bone was broken by a physically real force, but because the mind experienced something so overwhelming that it produced a functional neurological disruption. This is precisely what conversion disorder, also known as functional neurological symptom disorder, looks like in real medicine. Like this HAPPENS. Also since willpower is an actual power in Deltarune, it couldn't just manifested.
The body produces genuine, real, measurable symptoms in response to psychological trauma, without any underlying tissue damage causing those symptoms. Berdly's arm in a cast is the exact medical presentation you would expect from someone whose mind experienced a traumatic Dark World event, not from someone who was physically struck by a real ice attack.
The hospitalization proves the Dark World affected Berdly. Sure.
It does not prove the attack was physically real in the way required for energy scaling, and those are not the same thing. And that's my point.
Furthermore, the game is explicit that Berdly experienced the Snowgrave attack as cold, as freezing, as traumatic, The absence of frostbite in a character who was narratively depicted as being frozen solid is the game directly telling you that the physical presentation of the attack, the freezing, the cold, was experiential rather than physically real. The real-world consequence, him being unconscious, is the psychosomatic residue of a genuinely traumatic experience, not evidence of a physically real energy attack.
At this point, just debate with Ralsei. The fact they're fake sensations manifestated by the user's own will power is proven by such an overwhelming amount of evidence that engaging with your point is just unnecessary at this point.
"Berdly at the hospital"
"Berdly with wings fried"
"Damage"
Willpower.
Willpower.
Willpower.
They manifestated this on their bodies, as Ralsei, who is again, basically omniscient on this subject, stated that all sensations in the world are fake. That is fact, canon We shouldn't even be debating about it.
I provided ample evidence of it.
At this point, you refuse to interpret the line how it's supposed to be interpreted. Deltarune has an overwhelming amount of citations of IMAGINATION, WILLPOWER, MIND, PERCEPTION, DREAMS, ETC being DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE DARK WORLD and IT'S EFFECTS.
But the line, "might be your imagination, but he seems cold" is "nothing to sneeze at"?
No. This lines indicates that the difference between Berdly's temperature from his regular one is so insignificant, so negligible, that the mere appearance that he's cold might be your imagination, aka, a THEME of Dark Worlds that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERYTHING.
Also did you know placebo can alter your body temperature? Him being slightly, insignificantly cold is not evidence of anything his own willpower couldn't have caused it.
The fact Tenna gets broken, Susie is cut, etc.
Susie bleeds when smashing glass bc punching glass with sufficient force causes cuts.. Tenna breaks because he is a real TV. A television screen is a Light World physical object made of glass and plastic. This is Light World physics operating on a Light World object. It proves that physical interactions with real physical objects produce real physical consequences. The Knight is attacking a real physical object. Real physical damage to a real physical television is again Light World physics operating on a real Light World object. The damage to Tenna's physical form is damage to the Light World object the Dark World construct is anchored to, not evidence that Dark World magic attacks carry physically measurable energy
It says nothing whatsoever about whether a magic sound wave produced by a Darkner travels at the realistic speed of sound. The screen is real. The glass is real. The cut is real. None of that transfers to Dark World magic attacks, because the mechanism is completely different. Susie didn't get cut by Dark World magic.
Also her cut didn't necessarily translate to the Light World.
Kris taking damage from falling is even more straightforwardly irrelevant. Gravity is not Dark World magic.
The argument that Ralsei healing injuries proves Dark World damage is physically real contains a hidden assumption that needs to be surfaced and examined. The assumption is that healing a real condition requires the original damage to have been physically caused. But this doesn't follow at all.
Psychosomatic conditions are genuinely debilitating and genuinely real in their effects on the body. Psychogenic paralysis is real paralysis. Psychosomatic pain is real pain. These conditions arise from psychological causes rather than physical tissue damage, and they respond to psychological intervention in ways that purely physical damage does not. Ralsei, a Darkner whose entire existence is oriented around the party's wellbeing and whose magic is explicitly tied to the emotional and psychological fabric of the Dark World, healing psychosomatically induced conditions is entirely coherent within the CRT's framework. He isn't repairing tissue.
The Roaring occurs when a Dark Fountain grows without being sealed, causing darkness to overflow and engulf the real world. The threat is not that Dark World magic attacks become physically real. The threat is that the boundary between the Dark World and the Light World collapses, and the darkness itself, the same darkness that Ralsei describes as turning everything into fantasy and illusion, expands to consume reality. The Roaring is dangerous because it threatens to turn the real world into a Dark World, to impose the fantasy framework over reality. That is an ontological threat.
We're assuming they're realistic for no reason, I've provided plenty evidence that they're fantasy. Not "wiki" fake", but fantasy versions. They're not accepted by default. They need some behavior at LEAST.
Also, again, we are not cherrypicking which Magic is realistic. Either Toby intended for magic to be realistic, or not, and I've proven he didn't.
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Ok, that makes more sense, sorry for misinterpreting, for some reason I thought you were arguing for some "it was all a dream, the Darkners are really just 11-C" type shit, but if it's just "the Dark Worlds often don't operate under conventional physics due to being fantastical and on some level illusionary" then I'm ok with that
I was mainly thinking of hypothetical situations in later chapters where we do get 100% realistic attacks that would normally count, but if you think that it's a purely all-or-nothing situation, then I'm gonna remain neutral, since I dislike dismissing the speed of a projectile solely based on where it came from.
But that's just my take, feel free to disagree ig, just know I'm probably not gonna be fully convinced by what you have to say after this
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While you say it does not follow what the CRT is talking about the dark world or saying "Fake World" implies that the contents within is fake which it is not Lightners have shown to be able to feel hear and see everything going on within the dark world
Not only that the fact saying that these attacks do not have any justification of being their speed when they have shown to be objects that produce said sound come out of characters mouth produced from music sheets
Aswell the light based attack from said remote should be addressed that remotes use infrared light to send signals which is at the top of the remote guys head and translate into the laser looking attack with the other provided evidence that it goes in a straight line reflects and said to be lasers
I was going off the fact you said Fake world said berdly's arm was a placebo effect the fact berdly's unconcious his arm does not work is all because of the magic done in the dark world.
Aswell the shattered glass is not shown to us to prove Susie shattered real glass. All we saw is that Susie shattered a prophecy and got cut from it something thats completely within the dark world unlike Tenna. Showing the Dark world can still physically harm someone leaving actual cuts aswell as the fact you take damage and your soul can shatter.
But if we want to talk about the topic at hand I already stated multiple of my points before but also the fact the guns are slower then said sound attacks guns can range from multiple different speeds either the speed of sound slower or faster. The fact sound moves faster then these guns isnt grounds to stand on the fact sound isnt well speed of sound.
Again all of these come from objects that would make said sound and it happens within the frame of said sound being made aswell as the light though I feel like other people could speak on this better then me Im not a true Deltarun fanatic like I am with undertale I originally came in here for the Dark world stuff which id like to see how others argue aswell
Adding context to my words im not saying any of my nitpicks at the fact magic not being equal to said speed is a gotcha I do feel like there is other things that do need explaining which either I will look into more or someone else will these are just what I see as odd
I do feel like you have made a stronger point the more we talk but before quickly giving an agree id like to see the people who actually scale said verse say about it besides what ive just been given or remember on my playthrough with undertale
Though I do think the arguement is strong that Dark World creates placebo effects I do not think it should be used against the speed scaling from Darkners magic as they are stated to feel hear and see everything in the dark world aswell as it takes attributes from said object.
Not only that the fact saying that these attacks do not have any justification of being their speed when they have shown to be objects that produce said sound come out of characters mouth produced from music sheets
Aswell the light based attack from said remote should be addressed that remotes use infrared light to send signals which is at the top of the remote guys head and translate into the laser looking attack with the other provided evidence that it goes in a straight line reflects and said to be lasers
I was going off the fact you said Fake world said berdly's arm was a placebo effect the fact berdly's unconcious his arm does not work is all because of the magic done in the dark world.
Aswell the shattered glass is not shown to us to prove Susie shattered real glass. All we saw is that Susie shattered a prophecy and got cut from it something thats completely within the dark world unlike Tenna. Showing the Dark world can still physically harm someone leaving actual cuts aswell as the fact you take damage and your soul can shatter.
But if we want to talk about the topic at hand I already stated multiple of my points before but also the fact the guns are slower then said sound attacks guns can range from multiple different speeds either the speed of sound slower or faster. The fact sound moves faster then these guns isnt grounds to stand on the fact sound isnt well speed of sound.
Again all of these come from objects that would make said sound and it happens within the frame of said sound being made aswell as the light though I feel like other people could speak on this better then me Im not a true Deltarun fanatic like I am with undertale I originally came in here for the Dark world stuff which id like to see how others argue aswell
Adding context to my words im not saying any of my nitpicks at the fact magic not being equal to said speed is a gotcha I do feel like there is other things that do need explaining which either I will look into more or someone else will these are just what I see as odd
I do feel like you have made a stronger point the more we talk but before quickly giving an agree id like to see the people who actually scale said verse say about it besides what ive just been given or remember on my playthrough with undertale
Though I do think the arguement is strong that Dark World creates placebo effects I do not think it should be used against the speed scaling from Darkners magic as they are stated to feel hear and see everything in the dark world aswell as it takes attributes from said object.
GodlyCharmander
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I'm open to discussing new feats when new chapters come with an open mind. If they make sense, I will add them, I'm more so hoping to remove the ones that we know are inconsistent and keep them under that lens until Chapter 5-7 prove (or not) that they're reliable.
Would you be willing to agree with that?
GodlyCharmander
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I will just say this, since it is sort of bording on repetitiveness from both of us.
I don't disagree that Dark World can have some effects in lightners, I think they do, what I'm arguing is that these effects come from willpower reflected in the dark fountain itself, they're not realistic, but they exist. That's what I meant by "fake", and what my CRT ultimately seeks to prove by the compilation of evidence.
Do we understand the point now?
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I did say at the end I believe your arguement about placebo effects and in turn the willpower arguement is strong I was a little all over the place in that response so I cant blame someone for misreading it when I said that I was trying to state what I was initially thinking
Jepilstiltskin
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I love how you claim the Dark World has no real ontological standing even though its entire existence is meant to balance with the Light World. Sure, the Dark World isn't real, but so does the Light World then. See how incredibly absurd that sounds? The whole world (including the so “not fake” of the Light World) is at stake BECAUSE of the Dark World, claiming it doesn't have any ontological or real position doesn't make any sense.
AyOgUyS
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I am 99.99999% sure that what OP is actually arguing is that the Dark World is too fantastical to be considered a Euclidean space as it’s made by and based upon willpower, I don’t know what you mean by all this ontology stuff
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I do feel like its framed in a weird way that it sounds like hes calling it all fake basically instead hes saying the Dark World causes more fantasy like imagery and the psychological effect it has on you it makes it so extreme trama such as burnt wing and being completely encompassed by ice causes extreme psychological damage causing a placebo effect that is a real condition ive learned and can cause such symptoms and even death if berdly is dead in the weird route
Jepilstiltskin
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Among other stuff below that's trying to argue that the Dark World is completely fake or not real and that it doesn't have any position whatsoever.
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Should add that the burnt wing and encompassed by ice is all within the dark world that part the magic part is what he is calling not real from the results of these attacks not actually causing frostbite or burn marks
GodlyCharmander
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Oh, yeah, that's because Ralsei altered some details about the prophecy to make it sound more epic and its not present in the original prophecy whatsoever.
Hope that helps.
Also,
"there needs to be a balance between reality and imagination, because if too much imagination is present, it will overtake reality and overcome the truth",
oh wow, so insane
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