Chaotic Honkai Verse Upgrade (1-A & L1-A)

[PlungingThroughTime]

I guess (not that it matters much) i dont fully believe the primordial chaos > the soq they seem like the same thing in my eyes chaos is always used to describe the soq so it could literally just be an alternate name to describe the nature of the sea

I believe they're the same thing. OP needs more evidence to prove they exist on different layers imo, Su's vague statements are shaky at best. If they had that I think this would get accepted TBH, I don't see anywhere else this CRT can be contested.

 

[Mbpoops]

I believe they're the same thing. OP needs more evidence to prove they exist on different layers imo, Su's vague statements are shaky at best. If they had that I think this would get accepted TBH, I don't see anywhere else that can be contested.

I agree with this tbh

 

[SuperNova55555]

Because that seems to be your only counterargument against this CRT, that the Primordial Chaos and SoQ aren't the same.

No? My original post was literally made by granting that SoQ = GGZ Chaos lol

They're concepts above the branching timelines of GGZ and Hi3.

No???? IT is like genuinely a single universe. GGZ and Hi3 have separate Trees. They even have different reasons for the universe’s birth lol.
Your whole comment just sounds confused at what my points are in this thread

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

No? My original post was literally made by granting that SoQ = GGZ Chaos lol


No???? IT is like genuinely a single universe. GGZ and Hi3 have separate Trees. They even have different reasons for the universe’s birth lol.
Your whole comment just sounds confused at what my points are in this thread

Perhaps, mb if it is. IDK about the GGZ and Hi3 having different trees thing, especially since they separate past the point of the Third Eruption. Even the events of Azure Waters are canon for both. It's more likely they just branch off at different points from the same tree.

 

[Weaver261]

No???? IT is like genuinely a single universe. GGZ and Hi3 have separate Trees. They even have different reasons for the universe’s birth lol.
Your whole comment just sounds confused at what my points are in this thread

You keep saying this but you never give any scans from GGZ to prove that. If you don't know what you are talking about, may be you shouldn't claim like that?

 

[Mbpoops]

I personally believe they are in the same tree just different parrellel worlds durandal and Su reaffirm the tree has infinite parallel worlds like 5 times throughout the story (3 i can remeber are from the second key manga, chapter 32/33 (icr which one exactly but she was talking to kiana) and the elysian realm)

 

[SuperNova55555]

Perhaps, mb if it is. IDK about the GGZ and Hi3 having different trees thing, especially since they separate past the point of the Third Eruption. Even the events of Azure Waters are canon for both. It's more likely they just branch off at different points from the same tree.

I’ve heard GGZ actually has multiple reasonings for the tree. One is Yog, Ive even heard Zeus is said to be the origin and stuff like that.

You keep saying this but you never give any scans from GGZ to prove that. If you don't know what you are talking about, may be you shouldn't claim like that?

Sure. In GGZ it’s said to be Yog giving definition to Chaos (scans in the OP), whereas in Hi3, the origin of the universe is Imaginary Space

(Scans in the cosmo page)

 

[Mbpoops]

honestly i wouldnt mind summing it up to a retcon apparently the god heads arent even important to the story

 

[Weaver261]

I’ve heard GGZ actually has multiple reasonings for the tree. One is Yog, Ive even heard Zeus is said to be the origin and stuff like that.

You really shouldn't claim such thing with just second hand informations. LOMR and Zeus stuffs for universe creation isn't about the tree. Honkai verse isn't just a tree but other universes like Honkai universe exist. Imaginary tree is just one of many universes created in Primordial chaos.

Sure. In GGZ it’s said to be Yog giving definition to Chaos (scans in the OP), whereas in Hi3, the origin of the universe is Imaginary Space

Yog isn't a creator. The power of definition is shared in the realm of yog where anyone create worlds in chaos. Imaginary tree might be just one of many.

Now, use it to create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.

And not to even mention that IX description talks about multiverse. (IX is primordial chaos in my headcanon btw :3)

The Aeon that presides over the Path of Nihility. THEIR existence is a mystery.
IX doesn't interact with the other Aeons. THEY believe that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is nothingness, and therefore, worthless.

 

[Mbpoops]

I personally believe they are in the same tree just different parrellel worlds durandal and Su reaffirm the tree has infinite parallel worlds like 5 times throughout the story (3 i can remeber are from the second key manga, chapter 32/33 (icr which one exactly but she was talking to kiana) and the elysian realm)

the scans for these btw

 

[SuperNova55555]

You really shouldn't claim such thing with just second hand informations. LOMR and Zeus stuffs for universe creation isn't about the tree. Honkai verse isn't just a tree but other universes like Honkai universe exist. Imaginary tree is just one of many universes created in Primordial chaos.

Yog isn't a creator. The power of definition is shared in the realm of yog where anyone create worlds in chaos. Imaginary tree might be just one of many.

And not to even mention that IX description talks about multiverse. (IX is primordial chaos in my headcanon btw :3)

Right. So do you not see how this is just pure unfiltered headcanon? You will never see a single statement affirm this shit. You’re just taking some similarities between 2 parallel timelines and acting like they’re somehow the same exact thing…?

Also IX is prob js SoQ, I kinda agree there.

 

[Weaver261]

Right. So do you not see how this is just pure unfiltered headcanon? You will never see a single statement affirm this shit.

Same cosmology, same stuffs. It's not rocket science.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Tbf no one playing ggz isnt a problem itself since he just has to provide solid evidence of 1-A/L1A the issue is more like is this enough

Sadly that evidence doesn't exist...

 

[SuperNova55555]

Same cosmology, same stuffs. It's not rocket science.

No it’s js two different timelines working with the same ground and inspiration. That’s why are similar, but the “universe” or “multiverse” or wtvr you wanna call it of both is different

 

[Weaver261]

No it’s js two different timelines working with the same ground and inspiration

Imaginary tree exist to allow different timelines. Otto whole motive is to revive kalle in a timeline where she lives. Are you gonna say that is not in imaginary tree? GGZ is on the tree

 

[SuperNova55555]

Imaginary tree exist to allow different timelines. Otto whole motive is to revive kalle in a timeline where she lives. Are you gonna say that is not in imaginary tree? GGZ is on the tree

IT is a single timeline lol. All Otto did was basically js create a new possibility for Kallen to exist in

 

[Mbpoops]

IT is a single timeline lol. All Otto did was basically js create a new possibility for Kallen to exist in

ok so first off if he created a new possbility for kallen would that not be a new timeline? we know this is a completely new timeline because nothing changed in the main timeline of hi3. the imaginary tree has an infinity of possibilities and these possbilities are all parallel worlds "time flows through the trunk and branches creating an infinity of worlds" (this is something even consistant with hsr btw). the imaginary tree cannot be one timeline.

 

[SuperNova55555]

ok so first off if he created a new possbility for kallen would that not be a new timeline? we know this is a completely new timeline because nothing changed in the main timeline of hi3. the imaginary tree has an infinity of possibilities and these possbilities are all parallel worlds "time flows through the trunk and branches creating an infinity of worlds" (this is something even consistant with hsr btw). the imaginary tree cannot be one timeline.

A new possibility is not a new timeline; it js means there's another future the IT can head in. And branches aren't timelines, they're just pathways which allow Imaginary Energy to travel and continue the growth of civilizations and planets

 

[Mbpoops]

A new possibility is not a new timeline; it js means there's another future the IT can head in. And branches aren't timelines, they're just pathways which allow Imaginary Energy to travel and continue the growth of civilizations and planets

and where is your proof for this? ive already provided enough proof these are actual timelines and worlds and mentioning the kallen timeline it is an actual existing timeline on the imaginary tree that otto created

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

A new possibility is not a new timeline; it js means there's another future the IT can head in. And branches aren't timelines, they're just pathways which allow Imaginary Energy to travel and continue the growth of civilizations and planets

Otto created 'new possibilities in the past' for Kallen. Regardless of the amount of possibilities he created a timeline (at least one) where Kallen survived. There is one timeline and that'll likely branch off into many more because Honkai Impact runs on MWI.

 

[Mbpoops]

i just want to quote vietthai on this

Yet another Hoyoverse cosmology downgrade

1) This is js the same shitty “MWI” IT has. Its explicitly not applicable for Hypertimeline. (Nor do branching timelines in general apply) 2) Does this mean Irontomb only destroyed a single branch lmao No you literally have an on screen showing universe (IT) getting destroyed where all stars...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mbpoops]

also if the imaginary tree was just one timeline that would mean raiden mei, ei, and acheron are the exact same person but theres a reason why we dont think that...

 

[SuperNova55555]

Otto created 'new possibilities in the past' for Kallen. Regardless of the amount of possibilities he created a timeline (at least one) where Kallen survived. There is one timeline and that'll likely branch off into many more because Honkai Impact runs on MWI.

The issue that it's some temu MWI since the possibilities didn't exist before.

i just want to quote vietthai on this

Yet another Hoyoverse cosmology downgrade

1) This is js the same shitty “MWI” IT has. Its explicitly not applicable for Hypertimeline. (Nor do branching timelines in general apply) 2) Does this mean Irontomb only destroyed a single branch lmao No you literally have an on screen showing universe (IT) getting destroyed where all stars...

vsbattles.com

It's js so weird in general because hoyo seems to be using branches with literal contradictory meanings lol. (See below)

and where is your proof for this? ive already provided enough proof these are actual timelines and worlds and mentioning the kallen timeline it is an actual existing timeline on the imaginary tree that otto created

What? That Imaginary Energy is what lets civilizations grow? That's what u need proof of?

But it can't be that the branches are timelines at all because they're just clusters of solar systems and shit. Like even Herta makes it clear when referring to the "present" as the multitude of many branches and not a singular one:

Similar things can be said about the future too:

Branches fundamentally are js what determine possibilities in a set of leaves, but they aren't a timeline nor the whole universe.

 

[Furina003]

I personally believe they are in the same tree just different parrellel worlds durandal and Su reaffirm the tree has infinite parallel worlds like 5 times throughout the story (3 i can remeber are from the second key manga, chapter 32/33 (icr which one exactly but she was talking to kiana) and the elysian realm)

Does this mean that the tree is not only 1 but there are many in infinite numbers? As far as I remember, the ggz universe is bigger than the observable universe. So I don't think it makes sense if the ggz universe is still part of the imaginary tree considering that the imaginary tree is just a single universe.

So I mean, parallel world here probably just refers to IT leaves with a size no bigger than a galaxy.

also if the imaginary tree was just one timeline that would mean raiden mei, ei, and acheron are the exact same person but theres a reason why we dont think that...

I think this is just for marketing and to take advantage of existing assets, there is no lore that explains that they are the same person but in a parallel world

 

[Mbpoops]

Does this mean that the tree is not only 1 but there are many in infinite numbers? As far as I remember, the ggz universe is bigger than the observable universe. So I don't think it makes sense if the ggz universe is still part of the imaginary tree considering that the imaginary tree is just a single universe.

yes the tree is infinite this is said IN EVERY CONTINUITY EXCEPT GENSHIN BECAUSE GENSHIN DOESNT TACKLE MULTIVERSE THEORY

So I mean, parallel world here probably just refers to IT leaves with a size no bigger than a galaxy

we literally see otto create a branch and genshin is a leaf world on the tree so it cant be the size of a galaxy. leaf worlds are compared to bubbles which can be up to the size of a universe. please do your research.

.

I think this is just for marketing and to take advantage of existing assets, there is no lore that explains that they are the same person but in a parallel world

they have the exact same name in every continuity they are accepted as parallel versions of the same character.

 

[Mbpoops]

Does this mean that the tree is not only 1 but there are many in infinite numbers? As far as I remember, the ggz universe is bigger than the observable universe. So I don't think it makes sense if the ggz universe is still part of the imaginary tree considering that the imaginary tree is just a single universe.

maybe the because the tree isnt a single universe? we know it branches in time so there are differences in every timeline and universe like world sizes, characters, etc. surprisingly throughout all of this the sea of quanta remains consistent

 

[Weaver261]

I just think people arguing here doesn't really understand MWI.
MWI allows parallel timelines to exist as different space times.

This implies that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in different "worlds".
- Wikipedia

But the universe itself has singular timeline where all of these parallel worlds are participating in.

 

[SuperNova55555]

different space times.

What do you think a timeline is.

 

[Weaver261]

What do you think a timeline is.

Do tell me

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

But it can't be that the branches are timelines at all because they're just clusters of solar systems and shit. Like even Herta makes it clear when referring to the "present" as the multitude of many branches and not a singular one:

Similar things can be said about the future too:

Branches fundamentally are js what determine possibilities in a set of leaves, but they aren't a timeline nor the whole universe.

Why are we trusting Herta's self-admittedly dumbed down explanation more than a literal animated short containing the imaginary tree sprouting new timelines thanks to Otto making it so Kallen survives? Also it's made clear that the branches of the tree represent a time axis in Hi3, hence why the splitting of a branch into many smaller branches is representative of timeline divergence. The point where Kallen's branch grew from is where she originally died, it diverges from the main timeline into Kallen's futures.

I also say this because Hi3 technically has a second canon 'ending', in Diane's Sojourn XI if you let Kiana be taken over by HoV, she destroys humanity. This is flat out presented as a canon possibility in the event of Kiana's failure. In my view it's a sensible assumption that this is another splitting branch on the Imaginary Tree.

The Imaginary Tree holding numerous different timelines is further supported by the 2nd chapter of Second Key.
Context: Su has been looking at other timelines of Hi3, the infinity of possibilities, looking for a way to defeat the Honkai. He used the 2nd divine key to look at the Imaginary Tree and try to find a reality where the Honkai was defeated.

https://manga.honkaiimpact3.com/book/1014/2

Not to mention all the Ai-chan stuff I don't want to grab right now.

Hsr's Data Bank: 'The Imaginary Tree is a theory of the universe widely accepted by the modern scientific community. This theory describes the various worlds existing in different spacetimes as having a tree-like structure. Every branch is a specific path along which worlds might exist, with every leaf being the marks these worlds have made along the parameter of time.'

It doesn't help that Hi3 and HSR aren't completely uniform on their representations / portrayals of the Imaginary Tree. There's never going to be solid consensus on this. I dread what'll happen once they bring up the Sea of Quanta. Regardless of all that, I don't think the Herta's scans are particularly solid evidence for something entirely new given we've gotten a lot of elaboration about the Imaginary Tree in Hi3, and it's in much more depth.
So yes, branches are timelines.

 

[Weaver261]

I think GGZ otherworld storyline dialogue summed up the cosmology really simple

“You mean… this world is a hypothetical world created by the Honkai?”
Faced with Kiana’s question, Kevin shook his head.
“In areas where the source of Honkai is strong, the original laws of nature will be disrupted and even time and space will be distorted. But this world is not a fake created by the Honkai, but a world that actually exists in the Universe.”
“What do you mean!?”
“Yes, for each different choice, a new parallel world will be generated in the universe.”
Kevin turned his head and looked at Kiana: “And this is but one of many worldlines that diverge with Kevin Kaslana’s decisions at the centre.
Everything you see is just a bubble in the tiny Universe.”

Also all theories of imaginary tree are just theories and not universal truth. They will differ depending on the person interpreting it. Chadwick saw the universe as a forest instead of a tree
Also we have strayed from original topic a lot. Honkai universe things is already accepted long before this. If u have problems with it, make a downgrade thread later but not in this thread.

 

[Mbpoops]

I think GGZ otherworld storyline dialogue summed up the cosmology really simple

Also all theories of imaginary tree are just theories and not universal truth. They will differ depending on the person interpreting it. Chadwick saw the universe as a forest instead of a tree
Also we have strayed from original topic a lot. Honkai universe things is already accepted long before this. If u have problems with it, make a downgrade thread later but not in this thread.

this is consistant with nagamitsu's explanation where every choice you make is like a save point in a video game and what not

 

[Mbpoops]

i found these which... yea its pretty consistent between the games

 

[SuperNova55555]

02 Seed of Sumeru — Honkai Impact 3rd Manga Station

manga.honkaiimpact3.com

these

Universes here are just mistranslations btw. It js means "worlds", since leaves aren't universes.

I'll take a quick example, this one "世界" just means "world" and not a universe in the IT sense:

It also doesn't make sense to be a universe since the entire scene is talking about bubble worlds and leaves. So sure, parallel worlds exist, but that's only parallel leaf worlds. Which is uh, strange as you said since the information does seem to contradict each other here and there.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Universes here are just mistranslations btw. It js means "worlds", since leaves aren't universes.

I'll take a quick example, this one "世界" just means "world" and not a universe in the IT sense:

It also doesn't make sense to be a universe since the entire scene is talking about bubble worlds and leaves. So sure, parallel worlds exist, but that's only parallel leaf worlds. Which is uh, strange as you said since the information does seem to contradict each other here and there.

Either way the scene is talking about alternative worlds on the Imaginary Tree - That's what leaf worlds are, worlds that haven't fallen off of the Imaginary Tree. Hence why Su says these worlds are still alive and breathing.

It doesn't change a thing - He's simply looking into alternative worlds on the Imaginary Tree to find a way to defeat the Honkai.

Also I don't see how it contradicts at all. Both point towards the MWI interpretation of the tree and its branches rather than your interpretation of: 'But it can't be that the branches are timelines at all because they're just clusters of solar systems and shit. Like even Herta makes it clear when referring to the "present" as the multitude of many branches and not a singular one:'

Though like Weaver said:
'Also we have strayed from original topic a lot. Honkai universe things is already accepted long before this. If u have problems with it, make a downgrade thread later but not in this thread.'

I think this thread just needs staff checking over it now, to be honest. The common consensus seems to be that the Primordial Chaos = the SoQ but Su's statements are very vague regarding the Primordial Chaos' superiority.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also I don't see how it contradicts at all. Both point towards the MWI interpretation of the tree and its branches rather than your interpretation of:

No the issue with MWI is that all possibilities already exist, so there’s no way for Otto to need to create other possibilities. It’s also inconsistent with Nous pruning branches since the alternate worlds still exist even if not pruned. It’s also inconsistent with small-scale worlds like Leaf Worlds unless you want to claim each Leaf World is an entire genuine universe and not a galaxy or solar system.

I can get behind infinite solar system sized timelines if you want lol (I mean, Leaf Worlds are already solar system-sized Space-Times), but we’re basically calling all HSR statements null atp

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

No the issue with MWI is that all possibilities already exist, so there’s no way for Otto to need to create other possibilities. It’s also inconsistent with Nous pruning branches since the alternate worlds still exist even if not pruned. It’s also inconsistent with small-scale worlds like Leaf Worlds unless you want to claim each Leaf World is an entire genuine universe and not a galaxy or solar system.

I can get behind infinite solar system sized timelines if you want lol (I mean, Leaf Worlds are already solar system-sized Space-Times), but we’re basically calling all HSR statements null atp

Hi3's leaf world can always be much smaller than the others. It is hidden from Aeons by the cocoon iirc. Whose even to say there's not more outside of that? We know leaf worlds can be galaxy sized in HSR in the case of Asdana.

Also yeah it is inconsistent with Nous because THEY seem to cause a wave function collapse and that's how he prunes the branches. That's my interpretation of that anyway. MWI seems wonky but it also seems there's some times where it's genuinely used in Hi3. Regardless I'm gonna leave it here for the sake of not derailing further.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Edited - For those who are lost in the sauce about what I am trying to do here, here is the explanation. This upgrade thread is not to do everything from scratch with new informations. L1-A was downgraded in this thread due to SoQ being 11D and impossibility of L1-A being born through it. What I am trying to do here is proving that SoQ has another layer which "Chaos" and it's beyond 11D SoQ, thus making it possible for L1-A Tree to grow through it.

Low 1-A is no longer possible. The argument Nova used in the original thread was tied to the Imaginary Space, but the downgrade accepted that the Imaginary Space is subject to dimensionality.

Even if we grant that Yog scales above the Sea of Quanta, you still wouldn’t get Low 1-A, which makes that part of the proposal completely useless.

 

[SuperNova55555]

but the downgrade accepted that the Imaginary Space is subject to dimensionality.

This likely won’t be the case if we assert that SoQ is part of Real Space.

Issue with Chaos being L1A is that the justification itself isn’t enough, since it is bound by the size of Space-Time. (Also it likely being identical to SoQ makes it dimensional nevertheless)

 

[Mbpoops]

Low 1-A is no longer possible. The argument Nova used in the original thread was tied to the Imaginary Space, but the downgrade accepted that the Imaginary Space is subject to dimensionality.

i thought this was obvious at most i can see H1B for imaginary space since it exists in infinite amounts but low 1-A i can only see for the cocoon since it affects all possible dimensions and is non-dimensional. i was just under the belief yog's space exists above the cosmology and therefore above the imaginary space since only us the reader can reach her

Even if we grant that Yog scales above the Sea of Quanta, you still wouldn’t get Low 1-A, which makes that part of the proposal completely useless.

7D at most if we include Su's space