Asriel vs Kratos (0-4-10)

[Delusionaltx2]

where the heck did NEP come from

GoW supporters are arguing that kratos can exist without info therefore he would have to be able to still act while non-existent to info which is why i'm asking if he's basically none existent info now then how would he still be able to fight back?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I love how we have come to that conclusion lol.

Are you saying that Asriel can nuke Type 1 concepts anyway because they still have information to rely on?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Are you saying that Asriel can nuke Type 1 concepts anyway because they still have information to rely on?

I'm saying that if kratos gets info nuked everything now becomes none existent to him on an info level

if he can't act while still like that then he loses

 

[Planck69]

I'm saying that if kratos gets info nuked everything now becomes none existent to him on an info level

This is based on essentially nothing though. His concept isn't going to be affected at all with the information we have, because once again, these aspects don't have any superiority over each other even by default, and with how information is described, it would logically be comparable to dependent universal concepts, but not independent ones.

You can't show me where on the page this is the case, while I and Gilver have shown you enough about how information isn't transcendent of reality to the degree an independent universal concept is, and even if it were, it wouldn't have any bearing on the latter.

Like, I feel like people forget that the Metaphysical Aspects page doesn't rven specify that they're equal to Type 1. They just say that concepts, info, plot, etc are metaphysical aspects.

 

[Planck69]

Also, even if none of the above were true, Kratos still has the means to win regardless.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Honestly after so much back and forth. I just revote Kratos, people should revote after rereading, the discussion changed a lot after grace hit.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

This is based on essentially nothing though. His concept isn't going to be affected at all with the information we have, because once again, these aspects don't have any superiority over each other even by default,

At best his CM1 would still be there but he just can't interact with anything

and with how information is described, it would logically be comparable to dependent universal concepts, but not independent ones.

Once again CM1 in Gow has no evidence that the reality its independent from has information, if it did then yeah this would probably be a stomp but it isn't and because of that they would be equal but different per wiki standards as this is just how we treat metaphysical concepts

You can't show me where on the page this is the case,

I'll just quote this again then

• 2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

The reality kratos is independent from has to encompass info or the CM1 basically dosen't matter

while I and Gilver have shown you enough about how information isn't transcendent of reality to the degree an independent universal concept is, and even if it were, it wouldn't have any bearing on the latter.

So you're saying that you've proven that the reality kratos is independent from encompassess info? Can you quote where you did?

Like, I feel like people forget that the Metaphysical Aspects page doesn't rven specify that they're equal to Type 1. They just say that concepts, info, plot, etc are metaphysical aspects.

Type 1 relies on whatever reality your independent from in the first place otherwise it once again becomes a NLF

please prove that reality in GoW encompassess info

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

please prove that reality in GoW encompassess info

buddy if you are genuine, you are already fighting ghosts. If info doesn't exists in GoW. Your EE goes tit up.

 

[Planck69]

At best his CM1 would still be there but he just can't interact with anything

Once again CM1 in Gow has no evidence that the reality its independent from has information, if it did then yeah this would probably be a stomp but it isn't and because of that they would be equal but different per wiki standards as this is just how we treat metaphysical concepts

I'll just quote this again then


The reality kratos is independent from has to encompass info or the CM1 basically dosen't matter

So you're saying that you've proven that the reality kratos is independent from encompassess info? Can you quote where you did?

Type 1 relies on whatever reality your independent from in the first place otherwise it once again becomes a NLF

please prove that reality in GoW encompassess info

Type 1 doesn't rely on anything. That's why it's Type 1 and not Type 2.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

buddy if you are genuine, you are already fighting ghosts. If info doesn't exists in GoW. Your EE goes tit up.

Except once again by wiki standards the characters would still have info

the only exception would be if the characters had NEP to info or something which kratos dosen't have

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So you're saying that you've proven that the reality kratos is independent from encompassess info? Can you quote where you did?

He is talking about site standards, not GoW.

Read the Info page and CM page. Info Type 2 doesn't even hold candle to CM2 let alone CM1.

 

[Planck69]

buddy if you are genuine, you are already fighting ghosts. If info doesn't exists in GoW. Your EE goes tit up.

To be fair, we usually assume these fundamental aspects exist in each other's settings. Else, plot doesn't exist in God of War either.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Type 1 doesn't rely on anything. That's why it's Type 1 and not Type 2.

It dosen't rely on anything within reality yes

if info goes beyond the reality it encompassess then the CM1 can't protect him from info

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

To be fair, we usually assume these fundamental aspects exist in each other's settings. Else, plot doesn't exist in God of War either.

I know. Which is why I found it odd he is asking us to prove reality encompasses info or not. Like isn't that default?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

He is talking about site standards, not GoW.

Read the Info page and CM page. Info Type 2 doesn't even hold candle to CM2 let alone CM1.

ok lets quote CM1 on the wiki

• 1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Does GoWs reality influence info??? Does info participate in GoWs reality??? This is what I'm asking

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Honestly after so much back and forth. I just revote Kratos, people should revote after rereading, the discussion changed a lot after grace hit.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

ok lets quote CM1 on the wiki


Does GoWs reality influence info??? Does info participate in GoWs reality???

I'll post Kratos wincon, you post Azzy wincon. Lets revote. This is not helping it man.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I'll post Kratos wincon, you post Azzy wincon. Lets revote. This is not helping it man.

ok sure

 

[Planck69]

It dosen't rely on anything within reality yes

if info goes beyond the reality it encompassess then the CM1 can't protect him from info

No it does not. At no point on the page does it say that information goes beyond reality.

Information, as directly specifically defined by the wiki, serves as a fundamental building block of reality. That's all. Everything else is made up whole cloth.

This is entirely in line with how dependent universal concepts work in that both are directly dependent on reality, given one is a building block and another can be changed by changing everything in reality.

I have proven that Fundamental Information is on par with dependent universal concepts. You have to prove otherwise and that it is on the same level as, or beyond, independent universal concepts. Slime Tensei manages this. Warhammer 40K manages this. You also have to manage this.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Kratos wincon -
1) UT Chars can't interact with CM1 AE1 souls
2) Hope CM1 Invulnerbality protects Kratos
3) Even with info nuke, 4 basic Kratos soul components (Form, Mind, Luck, Direction) (check magic page for GoW pls), still remain intact and Kratos is still alive to continue battle.
4) All magic attacks can hurt and kill Azzy due to CM1 nuke. Kratos leads with context appropriate info analysis and clairvoyance followed by thought based psychic mind hax, combustion, power null/absorption, soul hax etc.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

No it does not. At no point on the page does it say that information goes beyond reality.

But it does say that the CM1 needs evidence for whatever level of reality it encompassess

Information, as directly specifically defined by the wiki, serves as a fundamental building block of reality. That's all. Everything else is made up whole cloth.

And in fiction since there are different levels to reality if the reality kratos is independent from isn't outside of this cloth then there is no reason the info can't work

This is entirely in line with how dependent universal concepts work in that both are directly dependent on reality, given one is a building block and another can be changed by changing everything in reality.

Except in the case of dependent and independent concepts they have a clearly defined relationship as concepts one being a superior concept to the other

Since info isn't really conceptual but rather informational then being independent from dependent concepts wouldn't automatically justify being independent to info

I have proven that Fundamental Information is on par with dependent universal concepts.

So can you please quote the part where you proved that GoWs dependent universal concepts encompass info?

You have to prove otherwise and that it is on the same level as, or beyond, independent universal concepts.

No because you're the one presupposing the positive that GoWs dependent universal concepts have info

Slime Tensei manages this. Warhammer 40K manages this. You also have to manage this.

Except slime and warhammer actually have things that suggests info exists as a dependent universal concept within their reality

GoW does not and you would have to prove otherwise

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Stooooppppppp!!!!!!!!!Noooooooo!!!!! This is genuinely gish gallop.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Asriels wincons/advantages -

1. GoWs reality dosen't seem to treat info as a dependent concept within itself so kratos's CM1 can't interact with nor protect him from info
2. Asriels info EE has Low complex multiversal range (Kratos can't avoid it)
3. Nothing from Gows magic system has any protection against info
4. Since Kratos is basically a random and isn't passively canceling out his abilities with DT then Asriel would be prone to erasing him like he did to the rest of the underground, and if he sees the immediate thought based normal EE dosen't work then this prompts him to use info

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

incon

 

[Planck69]

Voting for Kratos again. Even after all the info discussion, I'm once again finding him doing what he can to win more likely.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Ngl, I'd have preferred Frisk vs Atreus.

Frisk vs Atreus

Low 1-C Frisk is being used Speed equalized Starting distance is 10 meters Frisk has all of their optional equipment SBA for the rest Frisk: Atreus: Incon:

vsbattles.com

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I mean, genuine question

what happens if you info2 nuke someone but everything else is there? and they have feats of coming back from those other aspects?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I mean, genuine question

what happens if you info2 nuke someone but everything else is there? and they have feats of coming back from those other aspects?

if they don't have feats suggesting that they can come back from info then at best they can't interact with anything (NLF)

 

[Planck69]

if they don't have feats suggesting that they can come back from info then at best they can't interact with anything (NLF)

There's no feat of affecting a Type 1 soul. Smh, two can play this game ya know.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

There's no feat of affecting a Type 1 soul. Smh, two can play this game ya know.

And the type 1 soul has no evidence suggesting its beyond info/treats it as a dependent universal concept

 

[Planck69]

And the type 1 soul has no evidence suggesting its beyond info

It does. I detailed it. You just asserted otherwise. But it doesn't matter anyways.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It does. I detailed it. You just asserted otherwise.

Then for the third time can you quote where you detailed it

But it doesn't matter anyways.

It is up to what other ppl think after reading this so ig...

@Tony_di_bugalu read the entire thread and say what you think

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I mean, so far the wiki treats all those things as if they were on the same level (concept 1, info 2, laws, plot)

So without feats of one affecting the other then they won't affect the other. My question is, how does that translate in this cases?

Let's say Kratos asks Asriel to nuke him? Yeah his info 2 is gone but everything else is there, that should mean Kratos can come back because his concept still exists, right? Or does Info 2 suddenly become a higher/stronger kind of fundamental thing and suddenly negate his regenerative powers when it has never shown to do so?

Personally I would say option 1 is the most likely, its like trying to drink water with a fork or cutting a steak with your potatoes, things are just not compatible.

But that's just my interpretation of it.

 

[Planck69]

I mean, so far the wiki treats all those things as if they were on the same level (concept 1, info 2, laws, plot)

Small correction, but the type distinction isn't made by the Aspects page. It's just that they're all metaphysical aspects.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I mean, so far the wiki treats all those things as if they were on the same level (concept 1, info 2, laws, plot)

So without feats of one affecting the other then they won't affect the other. My question is, how does that translate in this cases?

Let's say Kratos asks Asriel to nuke him? Yeah his info 2 is gone but everything else is there, that should mean Kratos can come back because his concept still exists, right? Or does Info 2 suddenly become a higher/stronger kind of fundamental thing and suddenly negate his regenerative powers when it has never shown to do so?

Personally I would say option 1 is the most likely, its like trying to drink water with a fork or cutting a steak with your potatoes, things are just not compatible.

But that's just my interpretation of it.

Losing 1 aspect means you cant really come back from the other since you're still losing something intrinsically fundamental to your being so it's like taking a single block from a jenga tower and it falling apart. This is just how it has been.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Losing 1 aspect means you cant really come back from the other since you're still losing something intrinsically fundamental to your being so it's like taking a single block from a jenga tower and it falling apart. This is just how it has been.

Can I see where it says that? Cuz none of the threads I saw had that

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Can I see where it says that? Cuz none of the threads I saw had that

I cant find any in particular off the top of my head. Just from all my experience on the forum it has always been that way. Basically the status quo.

It'd also be assuming that a person would then become immune to like plot manip if their plot was erased but you let them come back from their concept.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I cant find any in particular off the top of my head. Just from all my experience on the forum it has always been that way. Basically the status quo.

It'd also be assuming that a person would then become immune to like plot manip if their plot was erased but you let them come back from their concept.

it only works when there is some inherent priority and heirarchy.

 

[Planck69]

I cant find any in particular off the top of my head. Just from all my experience on the forum it has always been that way. Basically the status quo.

It'd also be assuming that a person would then become immune to like plot manip if their plot was erased but you let them come back from their concept.

GeneralArmstrong.mp4

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I cant find any in particular off the top of my head. Just from all my experience on the forum it has always been that way. Basically the status quo.

Weird because from my experience shit isn't like that

It'd also be assuming that a person would then become immune to like plot manip if their plot was erased but you let them come back from their concept.

Hmmm no? Where did you get that idea? As an example of this match, Kratos regens thanks to his concept and Asriel nukes his ass again, repeat until my balls stop itching. Kratos wouldn't get some weird ass immunity or resistance to getting info nuked, he would just come back cuz concept is there.