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Removing WOG from Ben 10

Reiner04 said:
Notice how she mentions MC duffie in every canonicity related statement and proceeds to says i believe it too. Definitely an opinion of her own regarding canonicity she believes in cause of her husband.
Click to expand...

The whole "because it was her husband" agenda is not only ignoring the fact that Charlotte was a major writer on the show, but it's insanely disrespectful to both her and McDuffie

Please be better
 
Lonkitt said:
So you don't care when WoG tells you what's canon, but you agree with them when they answer questions about the cosmology and abilities?
Click to expand...
The cosmology? Huh? Everything comes from the show, all your yapping is about two support evidence.

We don't care about their canons opinion as they don't know either lmao. We have only been using Official, CN released media and scripts themselves. Aside from that, hell no.
 
GeneralSol16 said:
The cosmology? Huh? Everything comes from the show, all your yapping is about two support evidence.

We don't care about their canons opinion as they don't know either lmao. We have only been using Official, CN released media and scripts themselves. Aside from that, hell no.
Click to expand...

Have you just not been reading the OP?

I feel like you're not understanding where we're saying here...also, if you "don't care" then why are you using WoG statements? Yes, I know you've brought up the scripts and CN stuff, but there is in fact WoG stuff on the pages

If you don't care about their canon opinions, why do you care about their opinions enough to put this stuff on the pages?

Seems really contradictory
 
GeneralSol16 said:
We don't care about their canons opinion as they don't know either lmao. We have only been using Official, CN released media and scripts themselves. Aside from that, hell no.
Click to expand...
There is legitimately dozens of loaded twitter statements being used on this very wiki in some shape way or form. Hell some are literally linked in the OP with only said statements as the justification.

I would recommend everyone to actually fact check the links on the pages to see what is even being used before making claims like "we only use this, not this" or "we don't use these".
 
Reiner04 said:
Major one's are definitely not there. None scales to cosmology anyways aside from one species.

If there is a reason for verse specifics rules. If not then:
Click to expand...
Reiner04 said:
I did said "If there is reason for verse specifics rule", Ben 10 already have other medias established as canon by Duncan (who is creator of Ben 10), and general rule of canonicity is explicitly stated on the canonicity page, i do think some verses can differ from general rule but i don't find any reason convincing enough for Ben 10 to be one.
Click to expand...
Reiner04 said:
Nah they were never applied. I think its general rule here that such leading questions arent accepted here anyways, so that goes w/o saying. MC duffie was merely an author and i don't think he holds any right over canonicity of the franchise especially when duncan (creator of Ben 10) himself has made statement against it. The OP, in specific, is saying we should never take any statement of creators regarding canonicity which is pretty much only source to determine canonicity for Ben 10, as far i know.

Anyways i don't see any point in it there have never been any issue with WOG here. We have specific rules regarding them, so i disagree with going verse specific in such a non issue.
Click to expand...
@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @KingTempest @Dalesean027 @Emirp sumitpo @Planck69

Would you all be willing to recheck the thread and arguements? While there are sure some people who has been asking powerscaling related questions that doesn't mean we discard creators statement as whole other than following general rule that powerscaling queries aren't allowed in general. Per our caninicity rule that we currently have we don't allow authors to have say over canonicity of the verse but only creators and right holders per which MC duffie and his wife statement should not be taken priority over Duncan statement.
 
Lonkitt said:
Have you just not been reading the OP?

I feel like you're not understanding where we're saying here...also, if you "don't care" then why are you using WoG statements? Yes, I know you've brought up the scripts and CN stuff, but there is in fact WoG stuff on the pages

If you don't care about their canon opinions, why do you care about their opinions enough to put this stuff on the pages?

Seems really contradictory
Click to expand...
MY main problem was that things not related to WoG, those things are official, CN released shit

Wanna remove WoH? Do it, we can replace every single one of the "important things", and many of them were poorly categorized anyways.
But un this CRT are too many things that aren't wog.
 
Reiner04 said:
@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @KingTempest @Dalesean027 @Emirp sumitpo @Planck69

Would you all be willing to recheck the thread and arguements? While there are sure some people who has been asking powerscaling related questions that doesn't mean we discard creators statement as whole other than following general rule that powerscaling queries aren't allowed in general. Per our caninicity rule that we currently have we don't allow authors to have say over canonicity of the verse but only creators and right holders per which MC duffie and his wife statement should not be taken priority over Duncan statement.
Click to expand...

What new arguments...?

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic or anything. All I've seen people say against the OP is "we don't use WoG", despite the fact that the pages do

Also, you're acting like Dwayne and Charlotte are the only ones who made the "the show is canon and nothing else" statements. Other writers have done the same. Furthermore, nothing Duncan says debunks what the OP is saying

I ask again, what arguments?
 
GeneralSol16 said:
MY main problem was that things not related to WoG, those things are official, CN released shit

Wanna remove WoH? Do it, we can replace every single one of the "important things", and many of them were poorly categorized anyways.
But un this CRT are too many things that aren't wog.
Click to expand...

What in this CRT is wrong? Specifically name them if that is the case. You're being really vague
 
AmonInChains said:
—Charlotte Fullerton, writer of Ben 10
​
Introduction
For a long time I’ve seen multiple WOG statements being used in the Ben 10 universe, and when I say too many, I mean WAY too many, with this being abused in some cases where certain statements have no support at all in the series. Over time, some of them have been removed, but clearly quite a few still remain, and that’s what I’m here to address tonight.

The Powerscaler's Attack
Reviewing the evidence of the Ben 10 verse, a large portion of these statements are merely created to answer powerscalers’ leading questions. Hell, I’ve even found questions from a user here around the year 2020, which I’d prefer not to present for the time being, but I'll show the others.



What’s even more suspicious is that most of these accounts only showed activity around June–October 2020 (and were created around the same time) solely for these questions, and were then left inactive afterward. I suspect it must have been some group from that period, or in the worst case, a single user using multiple accounts.

WOG statements don't even have any weight
Yes, the same authors have admitted multiple times that their statements on social media carry no weight whatsoever and aren't canon, as can be seen in the following evidence.

  • Title. As said by Charlotte Fullerton, writer of the show, material that are not included in the show (Such as videogames, books, comic books, and ofc WoG) aren't considered canon unless it is in the show; therefore, the same should apply to the author’s statements. I don’t plan to touch the other material at all; I’m only referring to WoG.
    Later, she even said that she TRIED that every material are close as canon, admitting that it isn't, even citing the "Dwayne McDuffie law" of "if it's not in the TV show, it's not really canon", which connects to the next evidence.



  • Dwayne McDuffie, writer of the show who appears in multiple of the statements that are linked later on, mentions that what is truly canon is what happens in the show, not what he says. Then later, once again states that nothing he says is canon.



  • Kelly Turnbull, writer & storyboard of the show, mentions that all fan questions she answer are merely headcanon.



  • Matt Wayne, a writer of the show, states that nothing he answered wasn't definitive until the (at the time) release of Omniverse.


Proposal
Just like the discussion rule in Ninjago, all statements coming from WoG must be considered invalid. Of course, if there are abilities that have justification within the series itself as is the case with various abilities that will be linked later on, they should be kept, but everything else coming from WoG statements must be nuked.

The discussion rule would read as follows:



Abilities that should be removed
Now, I will present all the scans where WoG statements are used through questions on Twitter, TikTok, or some other platform. Only those will be directly linked for the sake of readability; the remaining scans are located on their respective pages, which are also linked in their own sections. It’s also worth noting that I’m not perfect and this is a ton of messy work, so if I missed any scan on any profile, I’d appreciate it if it were pointed out so I can add it.

I clarify that not all abilities will be permanently removed; supporters should have to re-justify them using material from the series. However, given how vast the material to be reviewed is, I would prefer that this be done in another thread if this CRT is accepted. Those that currently have justification other than WoG will be the only ones that remain, with another whole album being created on Imgur.

If any link doesn't work pls copy and paste on another tab, idk why sometimes work only doing that.

Verse page


Cosmology



Mana












The following isn't a WoG statement, but why a deleted scene is being used?




Omnitrix


Gwen



Kevin





Rook Blonko


Professor Paradox



High Override


Eon


Michael Morningstar


Alien X




Annihilarrgh


Dark Matter


Shock Rock




Slapback


Gutrot



Cannonbolt


Gravattack


Heatblast


Big Chill


Swampfire



Way Big



XLR8


Highbreed


Rocks


Ghostfreak



Zs'Skayr



Humungousaur


Humungoopsaur


Overflow


Bashmouth
why is this listed?


Omnitrix (Reboot)




Omni Forms (Reboot)


Ben (Reboot)



Kevin (Reboot)


Vilgax (Reboot)




Alien X (Reboot)



Grey Matter (Reboot)


Diamond Head (Reboot)


Heatblast (Reboot)


Humungousaur (Reboot)


Jetray (Reboot)

Votes
Agree: @Dalesean027, @Planck69, @KingTempest, @Emirp sumitpo, @AmonInChains, @Lonkitt, @Shadyboi0, @CastoriceTheFifth, @Chariot190, @Bimbitesthedust, @Da3ggman, @Robo432343, @Hecky2222
@Zanesucksatlife
Click to expand...

SIr, the second largest WoG removal has hit the site.
 
Lonkitt said:
What new arguments...?

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic or anything. All I've seen people say against the OP is "we don't use WoG", despite the fact that the pages do

Also, you're acting like Dwayne and Charlotte are the only ones who made the "the show is canon and nothing else" statements. Other writers have done the same. Furthermore, nothing Duncan says debunks what the OP is saying

I ask again, what arguments?
Click to expand...
My point is about canonicity. There are things other than WOGs that are being removed because of WOG statement that nothing that is not show is canon, even guide books, comics, novel, etc. We have only few sources to determine caninicity of things in the verse, thats Duncan.

Also per this thread even secondary canon won't be allowed. We need to determine if we are ready to go that specifc if the verse.
 
Reiner04 said:
My point is about canonicity. There are things other than WOGs that are being removed because of WOG statement that nothing that is not show is canon, even guide books, comics, novel, etc. We have only few sources to determine caninicity of things in the verse, thats Duncan.

Also per this thread even secondary canon won't be allowed. We need to determine if we are ready to go that specifc if the verse.
Click to expand...

No....?

This thread is only covering WoG material being removed

You still haven't brought up new arguments. You're misinterpreting the OP by the sounds of it
 
Reiner04 said:
My point is about canonicity. There are things other than WOGs that are being removed because of WOG statement that nothing that is not show is canon, even guide books, comics, novel, etc. We have only few sources to determine caninicity of things in the verse, thats Duncan.

Also per this thread even secondary canon won't be allowed. We need to determine if we are ready to go that specifc if the verse.
Click to expand...
Lad, if shit is DIRECTLY referenced and acknowledged in the show, like a movie, that's being in the show and thus made canon.
You're taking a basic statement and reading it omega literally when the intent and meaning behind is obviously "if it's not directly part of, mentioned, or somehow explicitly tied to the main source material, ie, in show, in someway, ignore that shit".
 
Reiner04 said:
"Everything that is not in the show is not canon" pretty much makes everything non canon afaik.
Click to expand...

No

We've gone over this before. Stuff like Secret of the Omnitrix, which is part of the show and referenced heavily in UAF and Omniverse, is not excluded from canon for the reasons I just said. If anything, it matches up perfectly with "McDuffie's Law". No one in this thread ever implied something like Secret of the Omnitrix would be made non-canon

Since when was this about movies? This is about WoG not being useable via it not being canon to the show as per many many MAJOR writers saying as much

AthelChan said:
I wonder if this will get Rule added like how Ninjago did.
Click to expand...

It really should get a rule
 
KingTempest said:
There wasn't a single new argument except pure denial and insults, my stance doesn't change
Click to expand...
Dude, we've shown you that the main base of this entire CRY is wrong, as the writers themselves don't follow a rule and it even goes against the show itself also, all of them are after a "In my opinion" "I suppose" "for me", do not even then are sure about. That's not a statement, but an opinion.

We agree about removing WoG, not about everything else
 
Lonkitt said:
No

We've gone over this before. Stuff like Secret of the Omnitrix, which is part of the show and referenced heavily in UAF and Omniverse, is not excluded for the reasons I just said. If anything, it matches up perfectly with "McDuffie's Law"

Since when was this about movies? This is about WoG not being useable via it not being canon to the show as per many many MAJOR writers saying as much
Click to expand...
Yeah but your point is "Its referenced in the show" that means it doean't contradict MC duffie statement so it can stay. So everything regarding canon gonna be run over MC duffie statement as some absolute law in the verse and will take priority over creators statement, no?
 
Reiner04 said:
Yeah but your point is "Its referenced in the show" that means it doean't contradict MC duffie statement so it can stay. So everything regarding canon gonna be run over MC duffie statement as some absolute law in the verse and will take priority over creators statement, no?
Click to expand...

Reiner, that is quite literally the opposite of what I'm saying

If it's referenced in the show, it is in the show, and ergo is canon. The fact that guys like Azmuth are even written to be in UAF is proof that McDuffie sees something like Secret of the Omnitrix as canon, and thus has written it to be in the show

You are ignoring everything we are saying

And more importantly this is not about the movies. It is about WoG statements

Stop derailing and ignoring what we're saying. You're strawmaning very hard
 
Chariot190 said:
Lad, if shit is DIRECTLY referenced and acknowledged in the show, like a movie, that's being in the show and thus made canon.
You're taking a basic statement and reading it omega literally when the intent and meaning behind is obviously "if it's not directly part of, mentioned, or somehow explicitly tied to the main source material, ie, in show, in someway, ignore that shit".
Click to expand...
And you are not reading at all.
She said that even the MOBIRS AREN'T CANON cuz of that law, and that's a contradiction, making the law a contradiction itself.
 
Reiner04 said:
Yeah but your point is "Its referenced in the show" that means it doean't contradict MC duffie statement so it can stay. So everything regarding canon gonna be run over MC duffie statement as some absolute law in the verse and will take priority over creators statement, no?
Click to expand...
Dude. If a piece of media is acknowledged in the show itself, it's fine. If it isn't, it is not.
This isn't complex, it's basic canonicity checks. The fact WoG is heavily used simply exacerbates this though, especially given the context it's obtained and how much it's used on wiki.

If a movie, game or comic is made canon via the show itself, lucky you, use it, if shit isn't, then I guess it isn't canon, and technically wouldn't be either based on both Duffie AND our new rule about canon statues off not explicitly recognized media so either way.
 
GeneralSol16 said:
And you are not reading at all.
She said that even the MOBIRS AREN'T CANON cuz of that law, and that's a contradiction, making the law a contradiction itself.
Click to expand...

Dude, she literally didn't. She just reminded everyone of McDuffie's rule

Secret of the Omnitrix and Alien Swarm have references in the show, meaning they're canon. But you're focusing on the wrong parts

This is about WoG. Not the movies, or the guidebooks, or the trading cards, or the official CN Ben 10 Harlem Shake video (that's a real thing). It's about WoG

Stop strawmaning
 
To my understanding from previous threads, we already agreed that WoG is only applicable if it supports or elaborates on something already in the source material.
 
GeneralSol16 said:
And you are not reading at all.
She said that even the MOBIRS AREN'T CANON cuz of that law, and that's a contradiction, making the law a contradiction itself.
Click to expand...
If you are going to continue this behavior, we can get this moved to be staff only and staff can discuss it instead if you're incapable of going a single post without extreme accusatory behavior as the basis of half your arguments.

All the same, no, the "rule" still exists regardless of her, she repeats it, but it's very much a thing regardless of whether she's right or wrong on a few facets, you're strawmanning the point, cherry picking what somehow counts, and moreover acting like an incorrect notion (whether or not it actually is incorrect remains to be seen), somehow invalidates the idea.

If a single instance of an author making a lil iffy was wrong, we should throw everything out regardless because they've all said dubious things at one point.
 
Lonkitt said:
Several examples in the OP prove otherwise...A lot of these are only here via WoG
Click to expand...
Hecky2222 said:
Can you please then show scans from official canon that supports evidence then? Cuz lot of abilities there seems to rely only in WoG
Click to expand...
Can you refer to specific abilities on profiles? I don't don't know what example profiles the OP is referring to.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can you refer to specific abilities on profiles? I don't don't know what example profiles the OP is referring to.
Click to expand...
Screenshot-20260121-030121-Chrome.jpg

Physics/law manipulation
Alien x has this on his main page for this
 
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