Hazbin Hotel Discussion Thread

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The first one is Alastor actively jobbing, why would this mean anything?

Sorry for my bad English but I don't understand.

Also didn't Adam easily get out of the bind?

No, he was thrown into the wall.

 

[Alexander]

ah, i love my discussions of Adam where i say that Adam is worse than Valentino, and apparently half of the world says "are you stupid" for saying that A GENOCIDAL MANIAC, is worse than a rapists pimp...

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Also didn't Adam easily get out of the bind?

no, Adam was genuinely getting tossed around when he was bound by them

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

ah, i love my discussions of Adam where i say that Adam is worse than Valentino, and apparently half of the world says "are you stupid" for saying that A GENOCIDAL MANIAC, is worse than a rapists pimp...

I meeeeeeeeeeean, playing Devil's advocate, one can at least argue that a number of Adam and the excorcists contribute to the perma-deaths murders, cannibals, and rapists (It is hell after all. Though, ofc, not all are according to the story and it's obviously bad he enjoys it so much and he doesn't really care who or what he kills) while Val just exploits people, doesn't and hasn't really contribute to anything besides sucking

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

YES. You do know what PIS is, right? It’s a "term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot."

Outliers don't work like that. If we went this way, we can just say that Frisk becoming stronger is just for plot to progress, or Bill destroying universe/Multiverse is just a plot point whereas he is hurt by a regular spray.

The plot points actually do matter more as they are far more significant than random bum outliers.

So please explain to me how Velvette getting taken out by a fall instead of Nifty’s attack

She was first exploded by her own attacks, then from Niffty's strong attack, then she fell. You want to say Niffty + Velvette < 9-C? While regular Sinners are 9-B?
Heck your examples would literally make the Overlords below Wall level where regular Sinners scale to.

or Husk not dogwalking the mob sharks he eventually beats anyway is in any way relevant to the plot.

He wasn't using that much of magic there, and I can easily argue outlier tbh. Velvette and Valentino showed relativity to Vox who one-shotted a Sinner by just appearing or punching Alastor into them.

But somehow the explosion that would’ve killed everyone if it went off, and therefore had to be stopped... isn’t for the purpose of the plot?

Yeah exactly! It IS narratively significant, thus cannot be ignored.

What is more important: a character's whole goal and narrative being about destroying universes via punches or a random scene where he in that form gets hit into the wall and gets harmed.

There’s some leeway when a series is written by multiple writers, since each of them is going to have a slightly different idea of a character’s power level (See Sonic) but like if it's one lad doing it, like at that point you have to go back the drawing board cause clearly we just got something wrong, straight up.

I don't get the point.

Just like a regular human being Low 1-C cause he could harm Danny Phantom lol

Dunno about Danny, so don't really get it.

Actually, on that note, fact Sera is only like 1/7th of Lu's power, and this ends up making fodder Overlords 1/14th of the blast.
It makes the power gap between Prick and Adam not even x2 lol

In DB, one-shot difference is 2x.
Also, it can be just that Sera is much more powerful than the rest. Just like in Finale, nobody would say that a random no-name Overlord contributed equally as Alastor or Rosie.

And Alastor can ignore that by just screwing with his soul, which he never did.

No? He can't screw his soul, he doesn't own him bruh.

It's almost like Pentious just isn't worth the effort.

That's why he wasted time on nuking him and his ship in Pilot.

Mate they verbatim say "oh yeah their singing made them stronger and we mean that in the most literal way possible"
LIKE LOOK AT THIS

Secondary source, primary source and narrative takes precedence.

CLEARLY EXPLAINED?! WHERE???
There's not a SINGLE line in the game about how Frisk gets stronger thanks to their Determination

We have clear examples like Undyne the Undying, or text saying we are full of DETERMINATION before fighting Asgore. It is well-supported, consistent, plot relevant, and shown.

And really? I honestly don't get how you don't see the resemblance. Why doesn’t Frisk just will themself past MTT’s invulnerable metal body? Why don’t they just will themself up to Omega Flowey’s level the same way they do against Asriel? Why don't they just blitz sans by just willing it like how they became ******* immeasurable lol

Because DT likely works on, unironically, being "determined". Frisk is more determined to get through Asgore or save Asriel, but less when fighting a random no name.
Singing and crying, however, is available anytime for Hazbin chars.

Maybe that's why Valentino and Velvette could drag and block Lucifer wherever they wanted, they were amped by goated VOX POPULI.

That's the problem, getting beat up isn't going to make your skin more penetrable or whatever, if you impale someone you're doing that either way.

It will make you less durable lol. Normally I'll laugh off 8-years-old's punches, after being beaten up by a professional boxer a kid would probably be able to finish me off. Same principle with weapons, except they are more efficient due to being sharp.

Prick lol

Huh

He never had Hеаven support and he lost his 100% approval rating as fast as he earned it.

Lilith didn't either? Genuinely don't get this point.

Like I'll say it again, fact that this only happened in "Hear My Hope" and WoG calls attention to that clearly means its requirements are more than just "sing lol"

Right now it was never shown up, no characters are surprised to have stopped widespread destruction or Lucifer, singing never led to powerjump. Therefore we can ignore it unless future seasons actually expand on those mechanics.

Like, imagine if an author explained Overlord's power by that "they eat a lot", but that was obviously never shown or stated in series and never emphasized. Besides, any character can eat anytime. Here, secondary source clearly contradicts primary one. Same with here, except it is "singing" instead of "eating".

 

[Alexander]

I meeeeeeeeeeean, playing Devil's advocate, one can at least argue that a number of Adam and the excorcists contribute to the perma-deaths murders, cannibals, and rapists (It is hell after all. Though, ofc, not all are according to the story and it's obviously bad he enjoys it so much and he doesn't really care who or what he kills) while Val just exploits people, doesn't and hasn't really contribute to anything besides sucking

which in my mind it is basically not relevant since you are not doing it for the good of anyone (and that is made clear)and you could care LESS about anyone else besides yourself.
and that already just gets me out of his side (i was not going to be on his side in the first place, but now i am not even near him after what he did to Charlie, A INNOCENT PERSON, just because she correctly called him out)

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

which in my mind it is basically not relevant since you are not doing it for the good of anyone (and that is made clear)and you could care LESS about anyone else besides yourself.
and that already just gets me out of his side (i was not going to be on his side in the first place, but now i am not even near him after what he did to Charlie, A INNOCENT PERSON, just because she correctly called him out)

One of stuff he says is:

Freaking hell is forever and it's meant to suck a lot

And given that hell in our case is just crappy Las Vegas full of criminals where many Sinners actually strive, you can argue he brings retribution.

In my humble opinion, it's just Vivzie screwing up how Hell works overall and hence why both philosophies don't quite work LOL.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I meeeeeeeeeeean, playing Devil's advocate, one can at least argue that a number of Adam and the excorcists contribute to the perma-deaths murders, cannibals, and rapists (It is hell after all. Though, ofc, not all are according to the story and it's obviously bad he enjoys it so much and he doesn't really care who or what he kills) while Val just exploits people, doesn't and hasn't really contribute to anything besides sucking

Besides, like, was he really a good person?

Now that we know that no angel, not even the seraphim, chooses or has control over who goes to hell and heaven, but rather the "world" (for lack of a better word) does, then Adam really was a good enough person to go to heaven (and we know how strict that is considering Sir Pentious and Mayberry).

 

[Alexander]

Besides, like, was he really a good person?

Now that we know that no angel, not even the seraphim, chooses or has control over who goes to hell and heaven, but rather the "world" (for lack of a better word) does, then Adam really was a good enough person to go to heaven (and we know how strict that is considering Sir Pentious and Mayberry).

But we should also consider that the law for everyone (at least in their minds) was that once you're there, it's the "end" of the road and there's no way to change, so no one had any incentive to change their personality. Sir Pentious was, deep down, still the same insecure and lonely man; he just hid it behind a malevolent facade, but he always failed at being truly evil and the worst things he ever did, amounted to property damage and constantly fighting to one person and only one person.
so i will say, it is more likely for Adam to always be a jerk than to actually be good

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Snip

Btw some parts of the scene don't contain shielding characters singing, it's Lute hating everyone, Vaggie arguing, and Abel struggling to make a decision and then stopping Lute via power of his dad's misogyny. Why was shield still there at that time? Why didn't it substantially decrease or straight up disappear? Why didn't characters feel that their magic weakened when they stopped singing and crying?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

But we should also consider that the law for everyone (at least in their minds) was that once you're there, it's the "end" of the road and there's no way to change, so no one had any incentive to change their personality. Sir Pentious was, deep down, still the same insecure and lonely man; he just hid it behind a malevolent facade, but he always failed at being truly evil and the worst things he ever did, amounted to property damage and constantly fighting to one person and only one person.

I'm not talking about that; I'm saying that even though going to heaven is extremely strict, Adam managed to go to heaven.

Sir Pentious, as you said, he wasn't a truly evil guy; he just couldn't be good because of fear. And even though he wasn't really a bad guy, the law was so strict that he went to hell for "allowing evil to happen."

In other words, even though heaven is so strict that you can go to hell even if you aren't truly evil or don't commit any evil act, Adam still managed to be good enough as a living being to go to heaven.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Pretty sure most people believe in him being a good person initially and then getting worse overtime as centuries went.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Imo Val and Adam are more or less relative in terms of morality. Main differences amount to personal standings and circumstances.

Val is 100% fine with killing people for the slightest things (he wanted to kill Charlie and went ballistic over Angel Dust just LEAVING THE BUILDING to go to a home)

Both are abusive to their underlings, both would bang damn near anything they'd personally want if they could, with the main difference being that Adam actually can kill anyone he wants and Val's position let's him do..... the grimy stuff freely

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Basically, the morality argument with the both of them stand less on their own personal morals and more "who actually got to do worse stuff'

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Both are pathetic amateurs, Alastor is worse

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Pretty sure most people believe in him being a good person initially and then getting worse overtime as centuries went.

Not really.

I've seen people saying he was a bad and jerkish person from the beginning because of that "forced control over Lilith" thing from that story Charlie was reading.

But no, at least as a human he was genuinely a good person, since he went to heaven.

And I highly doubt Vivizi planned something like that, but well, I doubt she thought of that when writing the rules of heaven and Adam. Because if he received no privileges, the guy was a good person his whole life.

 

[Alexander]

Pretty sure most people believe in him being a good person initially and then getting worse overtime as centuries went.

no proof of this, Abel is literraly a cynamon roll and he is only like 20 years younger than Adam

 

[Tllmbrg]

And I highly doubt Vivizi planned something like that

This is 95% of the show's lore, let's be for real.

 

[ShionAH]

no proof of this, Abel is literraly a cynamon roll and he is only like 20 years younger than Adam

Shocking news!! Time doesn’t affect everyone the same

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Shocking news!! Time doesn’t affect everyone the same

It would be good to have some flashbacks of Adam, to see how he worsened and became who he is now.

Because if, like, he's been the same since he was human, then that means that even though he's such a jerk, heaven/the universe considers him a good person.

So the lesson is, be good like Adam to go to heaven.

 

[Alexander]

Shocking news!! Time doesn’t affect everyone the same

and this is still a fictional world with supernatural elements, some characters can perfectly remain the same from the start and it will make sense...in their world at least.
since they are not like us (has real)

 

[Alexander]

It would be good to have some flashbacks of Adam, to see how he worsened and became who he is now.

Because if, like, he's been the same since he was human, then that means that even though he's such a jerk, heaven/the universe considers him a good person.

So the lesson is, be good like Adam to go to heaven.

I don't even think it was the universe who decided him to be there, i think it was just the angels who decided him to be there (like, Lilith can somehow be on Heaven even when...you know, she was casted down into hell)
also, SOMEHOW, he is a Archangel, even when that is not something that you can obtain naturally.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Could also be a change in morality deal. Not even counting how IRL stances have changed on what is morally good, Adam and Eve do just predate the 10 commandments and as such might not have had such rules back then

 

[Mythic381]

Btw some parts of the scene don't contain shielding characters singing, it's Lute hating everyone, Vaggie arguing, and Abel struggling to make a decision and then stopping Lute via power of his dad's misogyny. Why was shield still there at that time? Why didn't it substantially decrease or straight up disappear? Why didn't characters feel that their magic weakened when they stopped singing and crying?

Well if we go by the logic I presented, since they don't know that the singing empowered them, they also didn't know it weakened.

Or, like always, it's a plothole.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't even think it was the universe who decided him to be there, i think it was just the angels who decided him to be there (like, Lilith can somehow be on Heaven even when...you know, she was casted down into hell)
also, SOMEHOW, he is a Archangel, even when that is not something that you can obtain naturally.

The angels have no control over who becomes a winner or a sinner. So no. Adam is a winner, so no, the angels did nothing.

Regarding Lilith, they may have just taken her through a portal, like they did with Vaggie and Charlie; she's in heaven, but she's not a winner, unlike Adam.

also, SOMEHOW, he is a Archangel, even when that is not something that you can obtain naturally.

It could just be a title, whether due to his power or hierarchy.

Just like Lilith became queen of demons, even though she was a "common human like any other."

And that has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Could also be a change in morality deal. Not even counting how IRL stances have changed on what is morally good, Adam and Eve do just predate the 10 commandments and as such might not have had such rules back then

But then you're basing it on religion in real life, which is quite different from HH.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

But then you're basing it on religion in real life, which is quite different from HH.

Not really, since this is literally just a basic chronological thing. Adam and Eve were there at the start and the commandments came FAR afterwards.

The only way to actually argue against that is by saying the 10 commandments dont exist in hazbin hotel or that they were created at the very beginning. Even if they don't begin with Moses in HH, there is still an absurd amount of time inbetween where it's possible. Literally talking about the beginning of humanity vs current day, thats a big time gap

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

This isnt a case where I'm referring to specific Bible lore or some obscure stuff, this is about as surface level as it gets

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Not really, since this is literally just a basic chronological thing. Adam and Eve were there at the start and the commandments came FAR afterwards.

The only way to actually argue against that is by saying the 10 commandments dont exist in hazbin hotel or that they were created at the very beginning. Even if they don't begin with Moses in HH, there is still an absurd amount of time inbetween where it's possible. Literally talking about the beginning of humanity vs current day, thats a big time gap

And there's no reason for it to exist in this universe because it has never been shown to us.

And what are you talking about? Things like killing, stealing, etc., were already sins before the Ten Commandments existed. It didn't become a sin when the Ten Commandments were written.

 

[DarkLock92]

I personally rock with the idea that Adam was a jerk on the outside but an overall decent person on the inside when he was alive. I don't see him being abusive to Abel for example.

 

[Alexander]

Regarding Lilith, they may have just taken her through a portal, like they did with Vaggie and Charlie; she's in heaven, but she's not a winner, unlike Adam.

Basically this

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

And there's no reason for it to exist in this universe because it has never been shown to us.

Its one of the most universally basic things that can be assumed by default. Legit the concept of the 10 commandants is such a basic and popular concept when it comes to Christianity that there's literally no reason to assume it doesn't exist. If the 7 deadly sins exist, so do commandments. That's basic yin-yang stuff (I ain't saying commandments are characters like the sins, but the most basic concepts should exist)

And what are you talking about? Things like killing, stealing, etc., were already sins before the Ten Commandments existed. It didn't become a sin when the Ten Commandments were written.

Now who using irl logic lol. Literally my only point was 'Adam and Eve were so early that they might have operated on different rules', the only thing we actually know was a sin back then was murder and even then WE DONT ACTUALLY KNOW THAT since the Cain stuff hasn't been delved into.

I ain't arguing like this is absolute truth, I spitballed a possibility and your immediate reaction was to say "NO WAY THE COMMANDMENTS EXIST, WE HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE SO"

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It would be good to have some flashbacks of Adam, to see how he worsened and became who he is now.

Because if, like, he's been the same since he was human, then that means that even though he's such a jerk, heaven/the universe considers him a good person.

So the lesson is, be good like Adam to go to heaven.

The current lesson is: be the worst person to ever exist on Earth, continue doing that in Afterlife, become an Overlord and enjoy both life and afterlife without a single punishment.

Given how she handled Hell, wouldn't be surprised if she messes this up too.

 

[Mythic381]

The current lesson is: be the worst person to ever exist on Earth, continue doing that in Afterlife, become an Overlord and enjoy both life and afterlife without a single punishment.

Of course the Bill Cipher pfp is the one saying that

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Of course the Bill Cipher pfp is the one saying that

Nah, Bill's lesson is be so crazy that even Hell doesn't want you cuz you're too annoying

 

[Mythic381]

Nah, Bill's lesson is be so crazy that even Hell doesn't want you cuz you're too annoying

Technically, Hellaverse's Hell wouldn't be able to reject him, cause the king doesn't even care who's in Hell anymore these days.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Technically, Hellaverse's Hell wouldn't be able to reject him, cause the king doesn't even care who's in Hell anymore these days.

There is not even a king anymore, he was overthrown by a different kind of despot who is now unable to fulfill his duties, so it's a monarchy!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Outliers don't work like that. If we went this way, we can just say that Frisk becoming stronger is just for plot to progress, or Bill destroying universe/Multiverse is just a plot point whereas he is hurt by a regular spray.

Who brought up outliers? You said PIS. I responded by giving you the definition of PIS.

PIS is the EarthBound cast never getting stronger yet somehow tanking hits from Giygas. PIS is Mabel and Dipper escaping from Bill so Stan and Ford can pull off the switcheroo. PIS is 6 SOULs Flowey having his attacks blocked or outright nullified by sans and Alphys because the story needs the “Don’t Give Up” sequence to happen.

Remove the anti-feats from HH and nothing would change plot-wise. That's why they're anti-feats.

The plot points actually do matter more as they are far more significant than random bum outliers.

But now that you mentioned it, what are outliers? They're "an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

How the **** are dozens of anti-feats the outlier when the scaling hinges on downscaling from a single Tier 5 feat performed by the literal God tier of the verse?

Ever wonder why Spider-Man isn’t Tier 5, even though he’s fought the Hulk like seven times, and his rogues have squared up against Hulk and the Thing dozens more?
And his black suit crashout, like one of Spidey's most integral and well-known plots, has him brutalizing a Tier 5 guy as the catalyst.
Because when you actually compare those moments to his broader showings, they're the orange dot. Overlords scaling to the Might of Lilith, is the same.

She was first exploded by her own attacks, then from Niffty's strong attack, then she fell. You want to say Niffty + Velvette < 9-C? While regular Sinners are 9-B?
Heck your examples would literally make the Overlords below Wall level where regular Sinners scale to.

Mario was downgraded off a blog that compiled the series’ anti-feats, most of which weren’t even Tier 8.
The end result? He dropped from High 4-C to 6-C, because 6-C actually had 3 calcs backing it up.

Ultimately fiction will never be 100% consistent with itself, but be real. What’s more believable, that the writers made a 9-A character (Take into account they don't know what 9-A is, the character just has been shown to break streets and make a crater one time) by a long fall, or a ******* Planet-buster???

He wasn't using that much of magic there, and I can easily argue outlier tbh. Velvette and Valentino showed relativity to Vox who one-shotted a Sinner by just appearing or punching Alastor into them.

We’re treating Vox “just appearing” as sorta Dura Neg cause he literally materializes inside the target.
Of course the guy exploded, anyone even remotely comparable to Vox would’ve as well.

And goring rando Sinners doesn't at all mean Husk (Who isn't as strong as Vox obviously) would be bulletproof? Ever seen Slasher movies?

Yeah exactly! It IS narratively significant, thus cannot be ignored.

Guess we should upgrade all the main UT monsters to Low 2-C lol (The "Don't give up" sequence is integral to the plot)

I don't get the point.

If the writer barely ever displays the character at what Tier we assign them, and even contradicts it multiple times, we probably got something wrong lol

Dunno about Danny, so don't really get it.

Regular ass human. It's a 4-B Ben 10 situation, just more egregious cause lad is 1-C lol

No? He can't screw his soul, he doesn't own him bruh.

He didn't own any of the Overlords he made "disappear" either. That didn't stop him clearly.

Secondary source, primary source and narrative takes precedence.

Primary source doesn't contradict the "secondary source" hell it supports it with how weak it usually portrays the Overlord-tier characters and already established this Power of Song empowerment thing from the very first ep1. The WoG just gives us more info about it and clears some doubts.

And the narrative? They used the power of friendship to shield themselves from the explosion, the secondary source confirms that the power of friendship thing is actually an in-universe power-up and not PIS.

We have clear examples like Undyne the Undying

A monster getting stronger thanks to DT doesn't at all mean a human would too, like no human can become an Amalgamate or gain the powers of one.
Humans can't even use the full power of their SOULs (Kinda why a monster with 1 Human SOUL can wipe out an entire town of them) and DT is soul juice.
It's also a full-on anime transformation, it doesn't function at all similarly to Frisk's DT amps in the slightest.

And to add salt to injury, this is not even a consistent thing, Undyne as she's refusing to die in the Neutral Route and should for obvious reasons be significantly more determined than her base ("Undyne looks determined.") can only deal 1 damage.

or text saying we are full of DETERMINATION before fighting Asgore.

Ok? It's the end of their journey, obviously they'd feel determined. How does that at all prove that they got supernaturally boosted to match Asgore's power?

Because DT likely works on, unironically, being "determined". Frisk is more determined to get through Asgore or save Asriel, but less when fighting a random no name.
Singing and crying, however, is available anytime for Hazbin chars.

Maybe because for the Hazbin chars, it ISN'T just singing and crying, like again, Hear My Hope is the FIRST and ONLY time this happens.

“Hear My Hope” is the first song in the show that really explicitly taps into something that's alluded to throughout [the show], about music and power.

“Hear My Hope” is the first example we've seen explicitly of these people's power being manifested through song to achieve an end.

And what makes "Hear My Hope" so special? Well why not look at the song itself?

Raise your voice, light the fire
'Til our hopes and fears reach a billion ears (Camera pans to Heaven)
Lend your breath, join the choir
Let the music span o'er this broken land

And many years from now, if any live to hear this song
A story about how all Hell joined hands and sang along
It begins with just one note
A crescendo 'til the end, no matter what it takes to stay afloat
Hear my hope

Hear my hope
Let it thunder
Across this prideful ring
'Til every last soul sings
Take my hand (we'll take your hand)
Feel the wonder
In perfect harmony
We'll change our destiny

And many years from now
If any live to hear this song (if we live)
The story about how we learned
Together, we are strong

It's very clearly some Undying "Everyone's hearts beating as one" BS, like the power of the unity of Hell (And maybe Heaven).

It will make you less durable lol. Normally I'll laugh off 8-years-old's punches, after being beaten up by a professional boxer a kid would probably be able to finish me off. Same principle with weapons, except they are more efficient due to being sharp.

His skin would be akin to solid concrete to the knife if the difference was that massive, like I can't really give a IRL example cause the difference between a 5-B and a 9-A is so massive, that it'd be akin to an ant with a rubber knife cutting a human in half.

Huh

Prick

Prick is a demon and one of the many powerful Overlords of Hell who first appeared in the Hazbin Hotel pilot. Prick has a large, spiky, green body resembling a cactus, with a white circular pumpkin-like head with jagged teeth, and yellow eyes. Prick wears cowboy attire, with a red bandana around...

hazbinhotel.fandom.com

He wasn't even invited to the Overlord meeting.

Right now it was never shown up, no characters are surprised to have stopped widespread destruction or Lucifer,

Really?

And even if we die striving to find the peace we lost
At least we'll know we tried, didn't stand by with fingers crossed

Vox is even like "What the **** is happening" so clearly he had no idea this was even possible

singing never led to powerjump.

The whole reason why the Exterminations started was cause Lilith was making Hell too strong and that scared Heaven.
You know, the guys who are invincible to the non-amped Sinners?

Like, imagine if an author explained Overlord's power by that "they eat a lot", but that was obviously never shown or stated in series and never emphasized. Besides, any character can eat anytime. Here, secondary source clearly contradicts primary one. Same with here, except it is "singing" instead of "eating".

Holy false equivalence. The deals making Overlords stronger is (I think) outright said in the show and there's a dozen other WoG saying the same thing.
This wasn't contradicted. Legit what is the contradiction? That Charlie couldn't tap into it before this, why didn't Frisk tap into their Asriel fight DT against Flowey? Same thing.

All in all, it's an amp that's been foreshadowed since the very first scene of HH that let characters nowhere near even Tier 7 perform a feat, that if not for this amp existing, would've been ruled out as an outlier/PIS.

 

[Alexander]

People are to harsh on Charlie, yes, she messed up, But people treat her has she was the sole fault of eveything that has happened, and Vox basically wasn't the manipulator at all

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Who brought up outliers? You said PIS.

PIS because they are literally that in every single fiction media. Being scared of falling or small explosions or bullets etc.

PIS is Mabel and Dipper escaping from Bill so Stan and Ford can pull off the switcheroo.

Can as well be an anti-feat for Bill since you think being one-shotted by 9-C is somehow proof of 9-A.

PIS is 6 SOULs Flowey having his attacks blocked or outright nullified by sans and Alphys because the story needs the “Don’t Give Up” sequence to happen.

Not really, he was heavily holding back to make everyone idiots. That's like saying OF not one-shotting Frisk is PIS.

Remove the anti-feats from HH and nothing would change plot-wise.

Exactly, they are irrelevant to narrative unlike Hear My Hope.

But now that you mentioned it, what are outliers? They're "an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

How the **** are dozens of anti-feats the outlier when the scaling hinges on downscaling from a single Tier 5 feat performed by the literal God tier of the verse?

Ever wonder why Spider-Man isn’t Tier 5, even though he’s fought the Hulk like seven times, and his rogues have squared up against Hulk and the Thing dozens more?
And his black suit crashout, like one of Spidey's most integral and well-known plots, has him brutalizing a Tier 5 guy as the catalyst.

I have MCU Spidey at Tier 5, I don't have enough want to propose stuff on VSBW.

Because when you actually compare those moments to his broader showings, they're the orange dot. Overlords scaling to the Might of Lilith, is the same.

I'm well aware of statistical definition of an outlier. Issue here is that 9-A feats are very casual, they one-shot 9-B chars, and the anti-feats are nonsensical in context of that. Thus Tier 5 is not outlier.
It would be an outlier if Overlords consistently were afraid of Tier 8 explosions or hardly survived them or smth. That didn't happen. Just because a character one-shots a wall several times like it's nothing doesn't mean he is a 9-B fodder and that his 6-B feats is outlier.

Mario was downgraded off a blog that compiled the series’ anti-feats, most of which weren’t even Tier 8.
The end result? He dropped from High 4-C to 6-C, because 6-C actually had 3 calcs backing it up.

Skill issue.

Ultimately fiction will never be 100% consistent with itself, but be real. What’s more believable, that the writers made a 9-A character (Take into account they don't know what 9-A is, the character just has been shown to break streets and make a crater one time) by a long fall, or a ******* Planet-buster???

What makes more sense: Niffty one-shotted heavily damaged Vel, or Vel completely tanked Niffty + her own attacks but died to a fall from, like, a 4th floor? Is this a woman who supposedly one-shots IMPs who consistently do this? Hmmm...
I'm 99% sure if I watch DB I'll collect you several hundreds of such "was afraid of fall", "caused just small crater and was harmed", etc. Will this downgrade Goku from 2-C?

We’re treating Vox “just appearing” as sorta Dura Neg cause he literally materializes inside the target.

I always disagreed with this btw, me and @Detective_Blizzard wasted about a page arguing about that. He just penetrates through bro.

Of course the guy exploded, anyone even remotely comparable to Vox would’ve as well.

Proof?

And goring rando Sinners doesn't at all mean Husk (Who isn't as strong as Vox obviously) would be bulletproof?

Husk is near Vox in strength though. Also most guns are 9-C, average IMP is consistently 9-B. Make your own conclusions here.

Ever seen Slasher movies?

Nah.

Guess we should upgrade all the main UT monsters to Low 2-C lol (The "Don't give up" sequence is integral to the plot)

If the writer barely ever displays the character at what Tier we assign them, and even contradicts it multiple times, we probably got something wrong lol

Ah yes, characters must explode planets everytime they fight to be 5-B.

Regular ass human. It's a 4-B Ben 10 situation, just more egregious cause lad is 1-C lol

I never watched 4-B either, also it's not that because afaik it was about humans scaling to aliens, which is not same thing here. Shield was largely carried by Alastor, Rosie, and Emily, others were less necessary.

He didn't own any of the Overlords he made "disappear" either. That didn't stop him clearly.

Says who? He could have just beat up them to force into a deal.
No, Alastor can't snap his fingers and tear souls apart, I'm telling you this as Alastor glazer.

Primary source doesn't contradict the "secondary source" hell it supports it with how weak it usually portrays the Overlord-tier characters and already established this Power of Song empowerment thing from the very first ep1. The WoG just gives us more info about it and clears some doubts.

When the heck Power of Song was in first ep? Unless you mean Lilith, which supports my side as I explained here.

And the narrative? They used the power of friendship to shield themselves from the explosion, the secondary source confirms that the power of friendship thing is actually an in-universe power-up and not PIS.

Yeah, so much that they, oh well, NEVER use that power?
If you ever go through this, downgrade every character to Below Average Human because of how insanely stupid they are since they are not amping themselves to a flipping 5-B from fodder 9-A (or 9-C, since you seem to want downgrade them to that given their "anti-feats" are in that ballpark)

A monster getting stronger thanks to DT doesn't at all mean a human would too

It was via sheer determination.

like no human can become an Amalgamate or gain the powers of one.

Amalgametes are pretty unique since they merged.

Humans can't even use the full power of their SOULs (Kinda why a monster with 1 Human SOUL can wipe out an entire town of them) and DT is soul juice.
It's also a full-on anime transformation, it doesn't function at all similarly to Frisk's DT amps in the slightest.

Soul power is not same as DT lol.

"Undyne looks determined."

That's a lie, she confesses she didn't want to harm Frisk right after that. Looks isn't same as is.

Ok? It's the end of their journey, obviously they'd feel determined. How does that at all prove that they got supernaturally boosted to match Asgore's power?

It shows determination helps them fight a much more powerful opponent?

Maybe because for the Hazbin chars, it ISN'T just singing and crying

Literally what Hear My Hope is? Singing and crying.

like again, Hear My Hope is the FIRST and ONLY time this happens.

Exactly, this is why it doesn't work, why didn't Charlie just start singing about wanting to save her friends to fight better against General of Exorcists.

And what makes "Hear My Hope" so special? Well why not look at the song itself?

It's very clearly some Undying "Everyone's hearts beating as one" BS, like the power of the unity of Hell

Still doesn't work, plenty of people have unions, like Vees, Hazbin gang, Carmilla and Zestial, they never sing and cry about unity to become stronger.

(And maybe Heaven).

They did not sing.

His skin would be akin to solid concrete to the knife if the difference was that massive, like I can't really give a IRL example cause the difference between a 5-B and a 9-A is so massive, that it'd be akin to an ant with a rubber knife cutting a human in half.

AWs would be 5-B since they can harm Overlords, i.e. not that below General of Exorcists.

He wasn't even invited to the Overlord meeting.

Given that he is scared as heck from Zestial, he is definitely one of the weaker Overlords.

Really?

Vox is even like "What the **** is happening" so clearly he had no idea this was even possible

He was turned off and then saw Overlords uniting against his plan. No wonder he was shocked.
I'd give elaborate explanation @Detective_Blizzard gave me in DMs but would take too long to fight it.

The whole reason why the Exterminations started was cause Lilith was making Hell too strong and that scared Heaven.

Exactly, only Lilith was doing that. If singing was just a universal amp, someone, especially Vox, would have tried it. See here.

You know, the guys who are invincible to the non-amped Sinners?

Sheer numbers beat raw durability. Hence why they are scared of overpopulation.

Holy false equivalence. The deals making Overlords stronger is (I think) outright said in the show and there's a dozen other WoG saying the same thing.

M8, I'm talking about hypotheticals here.

This wasn't contradicted. Legit what is the contradiction?

That no-one ever did this nor emphasized or was surprised by this, probably.

why didn't Frisk tap into their Asriel fight DT against Flowey? Same thing.

Already explained it in my previous response lol. Scroll up a bit.

All in all, it's an amp that's been foreshadowed since the very first scene of HH that let characters nowhere near even Tier 7 perform a feat, that if not for this amp existing, would've been ruled out as an outlier/PIS.

Are you lowkey filling the void left by @LIFE_OF_KING leaving as "biggest downplayer of HH"?