Kienzan's Durability Negation?

[DontTalkDT]

If the point is merely “sharpness”, then swords in Dragon Ball, including Future Trunks’ sword which was even able to slice Frieza instantly, should logically be treated as the same phenomenon. However, in reality, swords are never stated to possess any unique property or special mechanism; they simply work because the user is strong enough to execute them. Moreover, Kienzan is a technique composed entirely of the user’s Ki, while a sword is clearly a physical external object, so treating both as if they operate under the same mechanical premise is already conceptually different from the start. Therefore, something that is “sharp” should not be able to injure or cut a target with far higher durability unless the user’s power is on a comparable level; yet what actually happens is the opposite, as Kienzan is repeatedly stated to be capable of cutting characters who are far stronger.

There are different levels of "sharp". A bread knife being sharp, doesn't mean that a razor blade can't be sharper and treated differently. Both are still just sharp.

 

[Huesito88]

There are different levels of "sharp". A bread knife being sharp, doesn't mean that a razor blade can't be sharper and treated differently. Both are still just sharp.

Like the good old Obsidian Knives?

 

[SwordLegendz01]

There are different levels of "sharp". A bread knife being sharp, doesn't mean that a razor blade can't be sharper and treated differently. Both are still just sharp.

I compare it to sword wielders, especially in the DB universe itself. Yajirobe and Trunks, like them, never wielded sharp swords capable of executing anyone, but instead relied on the wielder's power. Furthermore, Kienzan, made of Ki, is not only razor-sharp; it's also slow enough for opponents to dodge.

Also, it's independent of the user's Battle Power and is stated to be a unique property within the Dragon Ball universe. Even the official Dragon Ball official site states that despite Krillin's not same strength, he possesses Kienzan capable of killing opponents stronger than himself.

So, for example, if something sharp made with 5-A energy level were capable of slicing through a Low 4-C character?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There are different levels of "sharp". A bread knife being sharp, doesn't mean that a razor blade can't be sharper and treated differently. Both are still just sharp.

Yet still, neither are described as having the ability to cut anything and everything, explicitly regardless of its durability.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Kienzan (気円斬), Krillin’s signature technique, is consistently depicted as an energy-based attack capable of instantly cutting through its target, being described as able to cut through “anything” and “everything,” independent of the user’s Battle Power. Unlike conventional energy attacks that rely on power differences, Kienzan functions through its extreme energy-slicing properties that ignore the target’s physical durability.

In its various appearances, Kienzan has been shown to injure or threaten characters statistically far superior to Krillin. This establishes that the effectiveness of the Kienzan is not determined by the user’s AP, but rather by the inherent cutting mechanism of the technique itself.

I can agree with this but parts of you're arguments aren't to solid in my opinion

In Cell’s case, the Kienzan should still be able to cut his body effectively, but Cell may have been able to endure it due to his extreme regeneration. In other words, Cell is not “immune” to the Kienzan; he is simply capable of recovering after being damaged. This would not be a failure of penetration, but rather a case of surviving post-injury. But then again, such assumptions may not be fully acceptable here, especially since we also see the Kienzan shatter after passing through Cell’s neck. Considering that specific instance, it may not be unreasonable to assume that Cell possesses something that allowed him to withstand it.

You know Cell's regeneration abilities aren't that fast right?... We've seen when he's actually damaged and he never regenerated that fast, plus you can't even explain what just happened when you literally say "it may not be unreasonable to assume that Cell possesses something that allowed him to withstand it.". So what is it? Did he regenerate or did he use "something" to withstand it?

I could just as well say when that spark/light effect happened on hit, that was the disc deflecting off to the side and give him resistance to durability negation (that specific form). Basically it's a terrible scene to try and justify, you'd be better off saying due to how it's depiction, it's unknown what just happened.

Meanwhile, Jiren’s case is different in context. Jiren is explicitly shown reacting seriously to the Kienzan, attempting to read its movement and exploit a weakness or momentum point within the technique. This indicates that the attack is considered dangerous even by someone operating on a far higher power level. The absence of Jiren being cleanly bisected is not evidence that the Kienzan failed to ignore his durability; rather, it suggests that the attack did not strike him in an optimal manner. On the other hand, we have already seen Goku destroy Krillin’s Kienzan with his energy blast, even though Kienzan could penetrate Cell Max's energy attack, iwhich implies that he was also targeting a weak point of the disc similar to what Jiren did. Additionally, Kienzan does have weaknesses such as when it is launched from a great distance or used without proper strategy which is why it is often portrayed as a surprise attack, either relying on its attack speed or because the disc eventually slows down.

Jiren wasn't "serious", he reacted the same way he did when he charged at Goku and punched him. That standard look on his face. We've seen a serious Jiren and that wasn't it, especially trying to argue he reacted like that because it was "dangerous" to him is weird because he's shown blocking that Goku's punches despite we know that Goku at that time couldn't do much to him which is why he tried to ring out him!

Now, the argument on the way he struck them could be valid seeing as it looks like he doesn't punch it at an angle that would cut him (top and bottom). However arguing Jiren's reaction was serious as support that they were dangerous to him isn't good given that reaction isn't special.

As for Goku and Cell Max, it's blatantly obvious Goku blew his Ki blasts up on contact with the discs to destroy them, meanwhile Cell didn't. This is something shown in the verse a lot, several characters ki attacks detonate on contact while others push and blow up after.. Cell's is a good showing that it can cut through stuff but Goku isn't capable of being compared to Jiren because one was physical strikes that shattered them while the other was just detonation on the disc.

The most consistent interpretation is that Jiren did not “tank” the Kienzan through sheer durability, but instead read its timing and looked for openings to avoid it or to secure momentum. Within the context of the Tournament of Power, Jiren heavily relies on efficiency of movement, instant reactions, and battlefield control. Avoiding the Kienzan is far more rational than attempting to tank an energy slice that mechanically does not rely on Battle Power differences.

Logical but not based on comparison to Goku's method in my opinion.

Despite this, I think durability negation can be justified because of the statements, specifically the ones that say it has a "unique property". This phrasing sets it aside from other flowery language because its telling us it has some special mechanic and you can see it in the scans the OP, I'll explain.

Notice that against Frieza it cuts through his tail and keeps going and it cuts Nappa's cheek and keeps going. However, look when it cuts the rock after Nappa avoids it and when Jiren throws it at the rock and it cuts. It's clear that when it hits an object with a greater surface area, it severes the entire object in question despite not remotely covering the the entire are. This shows a unique property when it cuts so one can see that using the statements that it can cut through anything + it saying independent of battle power and has a unique property that displays more of itself when coming into contact with larger targets.

Overall I think it's got some valid justification and do agree with having durability negation but I don't know all the instances of the move being used so I can't say if my later interpretation (regarding the object size) or the statements provided are heavily contradicted. I'll try and keep tabs on the thread but you can put me down on agreeing for now.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

snip

Aight, thank you.

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, tbf, the statement is pretty straight-forward. At least this can be applied to Manga, cause most inconsistencies came from Anime

Idk where Durability Reduction came from, nowhere stated Kianza have the ability to reduce target's durability. Also in DB, stats are heavily depends on Ki level, so no way a Ki technique can reduce durability without reduce other stats as well, because if you want to reduce durability, you need to reduce Ki, but reduce Ki lead to other stats reduction. But nowhere in both manga and anime suggested this

Also idk where sword comparison came from. We see many instances of Trunks amplified with sword with Ki, people just block it if they are comparable to Trunks. Characters like Vegito and Black can even make Ki Sword yet nothing similar to that of Kienzan came from them

For anime i could see Limited Durability Negation, as it seems like Kienzan can neg dura up to a certain power level difference, well this is just my proposal, anyone can discuss this

 

[SwordLegendz01]

For anime i could see Limited Durability Negation, as it seems like Kienzan can neg dura up to a certain power level difference, well this is just my proposal, anyone can discuss this

For the anime, the scene that was never explained was the Perfect Cell part, whether it was part of the plot or what, but it was shown that the disc broke after passing through Cell's neck, as Griffin said, the scene was never explained directly whether the disc actually passed through Cell's neck or bounced off to the side.

For Cell Max, Piccolo couldn't harm/destroy Cell Max's weak point, but Krillin, even without aiming for Cell Max's weak point, was able to harm him with Kienzan. It was also seen that Cell Max's body was designed to reduce attacks, where when Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo attacked simultaneously, his body automatically deflected their attacks, even Gamma's attack didn't harm him at all (even after he gathered enough energy in his pistol). Assuming it was an effect due to energy colliding with something strong, visually what Eden sent was the result of the collision of two energies, including Jiren, who created an invisible barrier with his energy. But Cell Max only with his body was seen to deflect as if it had been modified for that.

Unknowingly, it all refers to the existence of a "Cell." However, various statements have repeatedly claimed the ability to literally cut through anything and everything as a unique property in the Dragon Ball world.

 

[Vietthai96]

Wasn't in Anime SSJ2 Gohan blocked Cell's Kienzan with his Aura?

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Wasn't in Anime SSJ2 Gohan blocked Cell's Kienzan with his Aura?

Gohan blocks it and blasts it with his aura, technically his slow movement makes him have many weaknesses. Cell attacks Gohan directly from a far distance, unlike Goku who attacks Buutenks suddenly. Technically it is similar to how Goku attacks Jiren with Kienzan and throws it quite far and high.

Edit: he held it from the side of the disc

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

Is the movie prioritised over the DBS Manga, or are they both used?

Cause there's a moment where Krillin's Kienzan just bounces off of his wing, still dealt damage though.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Is the movie prioritised over the DBS Manga, or are they both used?

Cause there's a moment where Krillin's Kienzan just bounces off of his wing, still dealt damage though.

It should be considered separate canon, but for the anime, it still shows the negative effects that Cell Max experienced even though Krillin only randomly attacked Cell Max's body parts. However, when Piccolo (Potential Unleashed) attacked Cell Max's weak points, it didn't harm him at all. We also visually saw Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo's energy beams automatically deflected when they hit Cell Max's body. Even Gamma, who fully charged his pistol, still didn't harm Cell Max at all. Nothing like this has ever happened before unless it was the impact of two large energies colliding, not directly interacting with the body, such as Cell Max's body being modified to have Damage Reduction, although it was never stated

• Holy Wrath Fusion Zamasu vs Father-son Galick Gun
• Holy Wrath Fusion Zamasu vs Goku Kamehameha
• Goku Kamehameha vs Jiren's invisible barrier

Screenshot 2025 12 20 214554 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot 2025 12 20 214554 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co.com

Screenshot 2025 12 23 180828 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot 2025 12 23 180828 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co.com

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

the evidence seems good enough

 

[SwordLegendz01]

the evidence seems good enough

Thank you

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

 

[Dereck03]

Anyway, tbf, the statement is pretty straight-forward. At least this can be applied to Manga, cause most inconsistencies came from Anime

Idk where Durability Reduction came from, nowhere stated Kianza have the ability to reduce target's durability. Also in DB, stats are heavily depends on Ki level, so no way a Ki technique can reduce durability without reduce other stats as well, because if you want to reduce durability, you need to reduce Ki, but reduce Ki lead to other stats reduction. But nowhere in both manga and anime suggested this

Also idk where sword comparison came from. We see many instances of Trunks amplified with sword with Ki, people just block it if they are comparable to Trunks. Characters like Vegito and Black can even make Ki Sword yet nothing similar to that of Kienzan came from them

For anime i could see Limited Durability Negation, as it seems like Kienzan can neg dura up to a certain power level difference, well this is just my proposal, anyone can discuss this

Same boat as this.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Can it be added now?

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Same boat as this.

Thank you!

 

[SwordLegendz01]

There are a few profiles left to apply, and I'm requesting their opening. This thread is finished and can be closed. Thank you

 

[Vietthai96]

I think you need to remove the Energy part in Durability Negation, because while Kienzan is made of energy, its dura neg method isn't via energy, as it is literally stated to have unique property not related to Ki, which make it even more unique than then Gogeta inner body Ki explosion method used on Super Broly

 

[SwordLegendz01]

I think you need to remove the Energy part in Durability Negation, because while Kienzan is made of energy, its dura neg method isn't via energy, as it is literally stated to have unique property not related to Ki, which make it even more unique than then Gogeta inner body Ki explosion method used on Super Broly

Aight

 

[Vietthai96]

Also i still don't know if DontTalkDT and DDM properly disagree or not, if they did, then we need more vote to outvote them

@DarkDragonMedeus @DontTalkDT

Sorry for pinging you two back to this thread again, but i just want you two to clarifies your vote

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

Would it be possible to add the weaknesses of the kienzan mentioned here to, at least, Krillin's profile? Though, it's probably too much of a skill-based thing.

Just tiny thing before it gets closed

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Would it be possible to add the weaknesses of the kienzan mentioned here to, at least, Krillin's profile? Though, it's probably too much of a skill-based thing.

Just tiny thing before it gets closed

I think a note like that on his profile now would be better:

The inconsistencies of the Destructo Disc are much more apparent in the anime compared to the manga. In the anime, the technique appears inconsistent as an attack that is supposed to be able to cut through “anything” and “everything”. This is demonstrated when the Destructo Disc suddenly shatters after passing through Perfect Cell without cutting his neck, with no explanation provided for this outcome. Another example is seen with Cell Max, who is not cut at all despite being hit by the Destructo Disc. In contrast, the manga portrays the Destructo Disc as far more consistent, as it is shown cracking Cell Max’s wing and even cutting through his energy attacks. This suggests that the anime presents notable inconsistencies regarding the Destructo Disc, while the manga maintains its image as an attack that qualifies for Durability Negation. Nevertheless, in the anime, Krillin is still able to damage Cell Max with the Destructo Disc, even when Piccolo (Potential Unleashed) fails to harm him by striking his weak point, and the combined attacks of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo seem to be deflected or have no effect on Cell Max's body, even Gamma 1 who fully charges his weapon's energy to attack Cell Max also has no effect on his body, then Gamma 2's attack also appears to be deflected automatically. However, despite these inconsistencies, many guidebooks continue to regard the Destructo Disc as an attack capable of instantly cutting “anything” and “everything” and as a unique property within the Dragon Ball world that does not rely on the user’s Battle Power. Therefore, even in the anime, the Destructo Disc can still reasonably be considered to qualify for Limited Durability Negation.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Also i still don't know if DontTalkDT and DDM properly disagree or not, if they did, then we need more vote to outvote them

@DarkDragonMedeus @DontTalkDT

Sorry for pinging you two back to this thread again, but i just want you two to clarifies your vote

I still think it's just fancy wording for being unusually sharp. So yes, that's a disagreement.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still share the same sentiments on what I was trying to say that DT clairified.

 

[Vietthai96]

I still think it's just fancy wording for being unusually sharp. So yes, that's a disagreement.

Just to clarify, the statement clearly state it have unique property of cutting through anything and is not related to Ki, Ki is UES which affect all physical stats includes durability, that mean interacting with durability mean interacting with Ki. Back to Kienzan statement, it was stated to be unique and its cutting ability do not related to Ki, which mean the ability itself do not interact with durability which is tied to Ki level, at all, do not interact with durability mean ignore it. This is pretty much textbook Durability Negation

For the sharpness thing, the verse already have sword made with advanced technology which can be imbued with Ki, and even Ki sword made purely out of Ki, yet they all interacts with Durability, even super-charged Ki wave which have massive damage compare to base user damage, all of them isn't regarded as unique like Kienzan, so i don't think the sharpness argument hold-up

Edit: i mean Ki sword made from Ki

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

I agree with DT. "Cut through anything" is a common phrase through media to represent something incredibly sharp. Having the "unique property" part doesn't really makes the context of it different.

For the sharpness thing, the verse already have sword made with advanced technology which can be imbued with Ki, and even Ki made purely out of Ki, yet they all interacts with Durability, even super-charged Ki wave which have massive damage compare to base user damage, all of them isn't regarded as unique like Kienzan, so i don't think the sharpness argument hold-up

Whereas I don't discard the idea that Ki on itself would be able to increase the natural sharpness of an object (wouldn't know), this doesn't creates a "sharpness scaling". Sharpness still requires energy (unless we're talking about an infinitely sharp object) to cut. A sharp object will just let you pierce something with less energy than the one you would require with a less sharp object. Providing something like a sword with more energy would naturaly mean it can cut more without it's regular sharpness being any different.

 

[Vietthai96]

I agree with DT. "Cut through anything" is a common phrase through media to represent something incredibly sharp. Having the "unique property" part doesn't really makes the context of it different.


Whereas I don't discard the idea that Ki on itself would be able to increase the natural sharpness of an object (wouldn't know), this doesn't creates a "sharpness scaling". Sharpness still requires energy (unless we're talking about an infinitely sharp object) to cut. A sharp object will just let you pierce something with less energy than the one you would require with a less sharp object. Providing something like a sword with more energy would naturaly mean it can cut more without it's regular sharpness being any different.

Edited my comment since i should have write Ki sword

But anyway, i think you completely missed out my first paragraph and just focus on sharpness, it isn't simply just unique property, its uniqueness is based on the fact that it isn't tied to Ki at all, and Ki itself determine all physical stats including Durability and Attack Potency, and as you have said, Sharpness require energy, but Kienzan isn't, it is literally stated to not tied to/independent from battle power (Ki), that mean Kienzan is completely not tied to the relationship between attack and durability and energy (Ki is energy),

Now goes back to your argument avout sharpness. Sharpness still require energy but less than thing that have no sharpness. The thing is, in DB verse, Ki determine your physical stats, so sharpness will not allow you to pierce something is more durable, which in DB context is having higher Ki. You need to have higher Ki than your opponents to damage them. Not only Kienzan is stated to not tied to Ki which is also responsible for attack and durability, it can also cut opponent that are far stronger than you, and stronger here = more energy (Ki).

There is also another fact that Kienzan do not tied to Ki level is when characters uses their super-charged Ki wave, like Kamehameha or Special Beam Canon, their power level also rising, representing their Ki is increasing. When Krillin use Kienzan, his Ki didn't even rising, which catched Nappa and Vegeta by surprise, despite Vegeta at that time have Scouter which can detect battle power

So yeah all in all, i think this is clear enough, Kienzan is described as having unique ability to cut through anything, and that unique property is not tied to Ki, which is a system of energy, and physical stats, includes attack and durability

 

[AmonInChains]

The inconsistencies of the Destructo Disc are much more apparent in the anime compared to the manga. In the anime, the technique appears inconsistent as an attack that is supposed to be able to cut through “anything” and “everything”. This is demonstrated when the Destructo Disc suddenly shatters after passing through Perfect Cell without cutting his neck, with no explanation provided for this outcome. Another example is seen with Cell Max, who is not cut at all despite being hit by the Destructo Disc. In contrast, the manga portrays the Destructo Disc as far more consistent, as it is shown cracking Cell Max’s wing and even cutting through his energy attacks. This suggests that the anime presents notable inconsistencies regarding the Destructo Disc, while the manga maintains its image as an attack that qualifies for Durability Negation. Nevertheless, in the anime, Krillin is still able to damage Cell Max with the Destructo Disc, even when Piccolo (Potential Unleashed) fails to harm him by striking his weak point, and the combined attacks of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo seem to be deflected or have no effect on Cell Max's body, even Gamma 1 who fully charges his weapon's energy to attack Cell Max also has no effect on his body, then Gamma 2's attack also appears to be deflected automatically. However, despite these inconsistencies, many guidebooks continue to regard the Destructo Disc as an attack capable of instantly cutting “anything” and “everything” and as a unique property within the Dragon Ball world that does not rely on the user’s Battle Power. Therefore, even in the anime, the Destructo Disc can still reasonably be considered to qualify for Limited Durability Negation.

Based on this solely, I completely disagree with even a Limited Durability Negation for the Anime given Cell's thing.
You can have a lot of guides statements (which even are controversial themselves), but if it completely contradicts the main source which is the anime then they are a nothingburger.

Idc for the manga, although I want to point something:

In contrast, the manga portrays the Destructo Disc as far more consistent, as it is shown cracking Cell Max’s wing

If this it's really Durability Negation, then should have phase through the wing, but instead, it just bounce. The following justification of this doesn't work for a Durability Negation but most likely for a far higher rating compared to the gang attack.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Based on this solely, I completely disagree with even a Limited Durability Negation for the Anime given Cell's thing.
You can have a lot of guides statements (which even are controversial themselves), but if it completely contradicts the main source which is the anime then they are a nothingburger.

The scene never explains why it happened. If we had a statement that said, "Cell destroyed Kienzan with his current power level," or something like that, I would agree. But, the reality is, it's never explained, whether it was for plot purposes or otherwise. Furthermore, long before Cell had already resisted Kienzan's effects by "Spinning his massive body at high speeds," he utilized the resulting repelled this attack. But look at how the previous sentence explains how if Kienzan hadn't been deflected, it would have cut him, "He even possesses enough strength to deflect Krillin's ultimate technique, the Kienzan, which can slice through anything."

After all, we have many statements that support how Kienzan works even as a unique property in the Dragon Ball world, even without relying on the user's battle power (Ki).

Idc for the manga, although I want to point something:
If this it's really Durability Negation, then should have phase through the wing, but instead, it just bounce. The following justification of this doesn't work for a Durability Negation but most likely for a far higher rating compared to the gang attack.

You're ignoring how Ki works, as Vietthai said another fact that Kienzan is not related to Ki level, is that when characters use their super-charged Ki waves, like Kamehameha or Special Beam Canon, their power level also increases, which shows that their Ki increases. When Krillin uses Kienzan, his Ki doesn't even increase. Their combination attacks don't work, even Piccolo (Potential Unleashed) attacking his weak point also does nothing.

 

[AmonInChains]

The scene never explains why it happened. If we had a statement that said, "Cell destroyed Kienzan with his current power level," or something like that, I would agree. But, the reality is, it's never explained, whether it was for plot purposes or otherwise.

It really doesn’t need any explanation something so blatant as that scene. This is nothing more than going around in unnecessary circles; rather, if you can argue something about it (which, as I quickly saw, you mentioned something about regeneration), you should be the one to prove it. Also, just saying "it was for plot purposes" I don't think is a valid argument.

Furthermore, long before Cell had already resisted Kienzan's effects by "Spinning his massive body at high speeds," he utilized the resulting repelled this attack. But look at how the previous sentence explains how if Kienzan hadn't been deflected, it would have cut him, "He even possesses enough strength to deflect Krillin's ultimate technique, the Kienzan, which can slice through anything."

First of all, Cell? When Cell did this? It is another whole different character.
Second, the enemy used an actual technique, totally different from what was shown with Cell, with the Kienzan doing absolutely nothing to him by sheer durability. They are completely different cases.
Third, as I said according to the "He even possesses enough strength to deflect Krillin's ultimate technique, the Kienzan, which can slice through anything."

You can have a lot of guides statements (which even are controversial themselves), but if it completely contradicts the main source which is the anime then they are a nothingburger.

For the later, as I said before, idc for the manga. But the argument of "it cut Cell wing" doesn't work since it didn't act as a truly Dura Negation ability; If you really want to justify that it ignores power level, you should put it together along the same lines as those proof, since it alone doesn't prove anything by itself.

Also, I will ask you to update the votes as DDM & DT, and other users disagreed.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

It really doesn’t need any explanation something so blatant as that scene. This is nothing more than going around in unnecessary circles; rather, if you can argue something about it (which, as I quickly saw, you mentioned something about regeneration), you should be the one to prove it. Also, just saying "it was for plot purposes" I don't think is a valid argument

Blantant scene? Regeneration is an assumption. Griffin's claim that it simply bounced off the side is also an assumption. Plot necessity is also an assumption. It's never shown how Cell survived it. Furthermore, it clearly passed through his body. If it were a "blantant scene," as you say, it should have been destroyed earlier, not through Cell's body.

First of all, Cell? When Cell did this? It is another whole different character.
Second, the enemy used an actual technique, totally different from what was shown with Cell, with the Kienzan doing absolutely nothing to him by sheer durability. They are completely different cases.

No one said it was the same character. You could say the character used the "actual technique," but you're ignoring the other results of the Kienzan that have already been stated. And I want to ask how you assume Cell did it because of "sheer durability"? No one has stated that except you. It clearly passed through his body. If Cell had resisted it with durability, he would have been destroyed from the start. You're just assuming.

You can have a lot of guides statements (which even are controversial themselves), but if it completely contradicts the main source which is the anime then they are a nothingburger.

Again, with a scene that is never explained at all?

For the later, as I said before, idc for the manga. But the argument of "it cut Cell wing" doesn't work since it didn't act as a truly Dura Negation ability; If you really want to justify that it ignores power level, you should put it together along the same lines as those proof, since it alone doesn't prove anything by itself.

Wym? So what am I doing now?

"unique property" (特性) of "cutting through anything, independent of Battle Power".
"property of being able to 'cut anything', [which is] somewhat unique in the world of Dragon Ball"
"It is very effective because the potential for damage is not related to the strength of the user."

Also, I will ask you to update the votes as DDM & DT, and other users disagreed.

I would update it, but they haven't addressed the new explanation from Vietthai yet.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Just to clarify, the statement clearly state it have unique property of cutting through anything

Which is hyperbole. Quite obviously, at that. We know it does not cut through everything in the verse.

and is not related to Ki

Because being sharp isn't an exclusively Ki-thing.

For the sharpness thing, the verse already have sword made with advanced technology which can be imbued with Ki, and even Ki sword made purely out of Ki, yet they all interacts with Durability, even super-charged Ki wave which have massive damage compare to base user damage, all of them isn't regarded as unique like Kienzan, so i don't think the sharpness argument hold-up

So they have less sharp blades. Does my razor negate durability for being sharper than my butter knife and my kitchen knife?

 

[Vietthai96]

Because being sharp isn't an exclusively Ki-thing.

So they have less sharp blades. Does my razor negate durability for being sharper than my butter knife and my kitchen knife?

The thing is, you can enhance the "sharpness" of the sword by imbue Ki into it, as long as your Ki level >= your Ki. Ki is UES which affect all physical stats, yet Kienzan is stated to be unique even compare to these case

Anyway, the point of Kienzan is not tied to Ki is because is the power of everything in the verse determine by Ki, More Ki will harm less Ki regardless of thing, Kienzan however isn't abide this, it isn't determined by power or it care about the victim durability, that is durability negation

Which is hyperbole. Quite obviously, at that. We know it does not cut through everything in the verse.

I would agree if it is just a random drop of cutting through anything, but it is more than just random drop of vague statement

I would update it, but they haven't addressed the new explanation from Vietthai yet.

You still need to update the vote even if they still have yet to address my newer argument, since they already made clear of their votes

 

[AmonInChains]

Blantant scene? Regeneration is an assumption. Griffin's claim that it simply bounced off the side is also an assumption. Plot necessity is also an assumption. It's never shown how Cell survived it. Furthermore, it clearly passed through his body. If it were a "blantant scene," as you say, it should have been destroyed earlier, not through Cell's body.

Griffin did just said that cause the "support" of the Dura Negation, which, as I said, doesn't even matter if isn't supported by the actual shown.

No one said it was the same character.

Furthermore, long before Cell had already resisted Kienzan's effects

Ig that was a typo on you, but I won't give it much importance either.

And I want to ask how you assume Cell did it because of "sheer durability"? No one has stated that except you.

And like, what’s the simpler conclusion here? That Cell is just extremely durable, hence why he can tank a Kienzan in a scene meant to emphasize how tough he is, and that the claims about the Kienzan “cutting anything” are hyperbolic? Or that the scene abruptly transitions from showing us Cell’s durability to introducing a highly specific resistance that never meaningfully comes up again?

Literally the second comment on the post.

It clearly passed through his body. If Cell had resisted it with durability, he would have been destroyed from the start. You're just assuming.

Not really. It's not uncommon in fiction that sharpness could only penetrate a bit in the body and couldn't phase then.

In this case, by only keep pushing away it just ended up destroying.

Wym? So what am I doing now?

You're not doing that, tho? You actual justification wants to prove it as a ultimate defense on the point, as I read:

In contrast, the manga portrays the Destructo Disc as far more consistent, as it is shown cracking Cell Max’s wing and even cutting through his energy attacks

Nothing of the whole sentence is actually proving it by itself. Just move that line to the part where you are ACTUALLY arguing about the battle power thing.

I would update it, but they haven't addressed the new explanation from Vietthai yet.

You don't decide that.
And I will ask you again to add all the votes remain. You have the option to add only Staff votes or to add everyone who voted, and if you choose the latter, you must add ALL of them; you are still ignoring the votes from opposition who aren't staff (@Kachon123, me, @Monkey_Dunno & idk about @Eden_Warlock99), so I would ask you to add them. Given this, and the attempt to close the thread earlier, it becomes a third sus behavior.

I woke up recently and I don't plan to discuss this on New Year's Eve, so don't expect a new response from me.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree more with DontTalkDT on this.