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Will say in counter-defense of that, Sera explicitly wanted Emily to have nothing to do with it and it was a secret for most of heaven. So the seraphims not being involved could been seen as simple politics
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Hazbin Hotel Discussion Thread
- Thread starter WeeklyBattles
- Start date
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I’m pretty sure she is supposed to have bigger power compared to those below, but she’s obviously weaker than other Seraphims, cuz Lucifer is one.
Uh, it was a secret to all of Неаven, Emily got furious at Sera when she got to know it. Only Exorcists and Sera knew that until it was revealed in S1EP6.
Fair.
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Not the best comparison since Adam's was just a quick grab and fling (no real chance to break out of it). Emily meanwhile was restrained for a decent period of time in a much slower fashion
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,621
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Also Rosie notes Adam's rank when talking about his power, so Heaven probably has some higher rank = stronger stuff going on.
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I know, but with the Exorcists (a decently-large group) knowing, and some of the Seraphims being able to justify it, I figured they would've selected some people to head down based on combat potential, and that could include the more Sera-aligned Seraphims if they were strong enough.
But selecting Exorcists based on, like, secret-keeping and sadism does also seem plausible.
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I mean for like, the calcs. Cause I have to do this math 3 times for the CRT I want to be sure. I'd prefer keeping the possibly far higher to an actual tier.
Like, if it was unquantifiable, I'd agree with the Far Higher thing, but if I can quantify it? That's a tier to put on the profiles and is better than Vague shit
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I think with such a noteworthy difference (how much the bubble changed when Alastor/Rosie joined in; Alastor being able to credibly extort Rosie, with them both agreeing that everyone would die if Alastor didn't join) that it can't really be quantified outside of the people who can scale to full-power Alastor (and maybe Rosie?) normally. Then we divide by how many people that is, and give the rest "far higher".
But other staff may disagree.
...Do you think it'd be plausible to have the CRT decide this sort of thing before you actually run the numbers, and then just apply whatever comes out? I don't think people will say it's an outlier at 1/3rd but isn't at 1/14th.
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Udlmaster
Any/All- 7,502
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I could see that, though as we saw in this season, simply being stronger doesn't make you a good fighter.
Vox was technically for all intents and purposes far stronger than Alastor and yet basically got dog walked by him because he's not a good fighter.
Likewise, we saw that Alastor was able to actually keep up with Adam due to his fighting experience for a little bit despite Adam being so much stronger that Rosie laughs in Alastor's face about him thinking he could take on an Archangel (also note Rosie denotes the rank of Angel here, not who the Angel was).
So basically while in raw power Emily is probably leagues stronger than anyone in Hell (besides Lucifer, ofc), she just doesn't know how to utilize her power very well.
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Maybe winners and exorcists just don’t have one.
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We do get like two shots of the shield before Alastor and Rosie join.
First one has it half-complete, another essentially 80-90% covered around the canon.
So maybe you can argue that Rosie + Alastor = Everyone's contribution if you really wanted to, since it seems like the shield would have been done regardless, but just not strong enough to actually hold the explosion back.
ShionAH
He/Him- 20,846
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Kinda weird how an Archangel wouldn’t have any, maybe its about how Lilith and Adam seem to have special souls
I wonder if Abel has one?
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But again, Vees do downscale to weakened Alastor so dunno if gap can be realistically that high.
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I really don't see a reason why we can't just say Alastor was actively jobbing in the fight.
We have everything Agnaa already brought regarding the encounter, plus you can probably add weakened Alastor just having stamina issues since he's an injured dude who's overexerting himself whenever he uses magic.
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I do agree that Alastor was holding back and intentionally lost, I’ve been arguing this ever since Ep4 came out, but you can’t realistically nerf your durability. We have a legit feat of Vox stunning Alastor by throwing him into the wall and Velvette slightly harming his face. Which of course still shows they are inferior but still scale, so… downscale.
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Weakened Alastor being, like, 4-10x weaker doesn't sound too wild to me.
Udlmaster
Any/All- 7,502
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He was, I have no idea why we're having this debate. It's the clear subtext of the fight and in the official descriptions of the fight they all say Alastor intentionally wanted to give up so he could set up everything that happened.
I can see the Vee's AP scaling to the durability of the Weakened Alastor as Velvette's attacks were actually piercing his shield and we do see from the fight that it does shock him, but as we learn, this isn't even Weakened Alastor going all out. To what degree this would translate to an AP drop, who knows.
At best, I could say something like "possibly [X] (Managed to damage a Weakened Alastor who was holding back and pierce his shields)"
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Checking the fight again the times the Vees hurt Alastor are:
Valentino kicking Alastor's chest (0:52) - That's actively targeting his wound from Adam, so it's not really good scaling
Velvette putting a nick on his face (0:59) - Not even serious scaling, unless people think that paper cuts make regular paper 9-C since Mike Tyson can get that.
Velvette shooting through the shield (1:22) - We objectively know off him vs Super Vox that he's just not using full force, plus he literally got hit a few seconds ago in the chest so he's winded and probably putting even less into the shield
Vox smashing Alastor into a wall (2:25) - Off their later fight it seems Hazbin might just consider these type of things stronger than regular attacks, plus he didn't even really take notable damage? Really the reason Alastor is in pain is Vox just ripping his stitches right after, otherwise he's just standing there chilling while Nifty and Husk fight.
So really going over the fight there is no actual good scaling for the Vees off it to Alastor lol
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,621
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The difference between the Vees and Alastor you're proposing is x994,519,411 btw (This is if we take the bomb as being 6-C and not High 6-A too).
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Vox makes Alastor bleed during the grapple, he had already recovered from Val's attacks by the time he went to shadow and he didn't grapple Al in the chest area
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Tbf that’s more of an electrocution I see there.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,621
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Oh yeah, think we should probably avoid linking Imgur if we can.
Most of Vox's stuff is in songs or clips Prime released on Youtube, so shouldn't be that much of a problem.
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In the CRT itself I fully intend to list options for scaling, so I'm not out here saying my way is the only way there's gonna be options.
But even then, you'd have to prove that everyone else was contributing next to nothing to not give them a chunk of the scaling.
Though as it stands, IIRC there's two CRTs open already so I'd really prefer to do the big one before anything else
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Maybe I'm missing the frame but the only time I see him bleed/show actual pain from Vox in that grapple is when he rips the stitches, I guess I see some mouth bleed when he's getting tossed?
Not really something I'd consider notable damage from a guy who's already suffering internal damage with his big chest wound being agitated. Either way I really don't think the Vees have actual feats to seriously scale to even a Weakened Alastor
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Either way the attack dealt damage and we by default don't assume electric attacks negate durability (Plus we have the later showings of Vox shocking Al for comparision)
Also Vox being able to cut Alastor's threads should likely also count as a feat, since even hold back there's little reason for him to just let that happen easily
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I am far too deep in that rabbit hole with no good alternatives. If someone else wants to convert all that stuff into another site they can but I got sunk fallacy'd
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The way his hair moves + his own shivering are signs it’s an electrocution. If it were regular AP, he would have just bled.
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What’s exactly bad with Imgur? Though it’s preferred to use Prime clips whenever possible, I agree with that.
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It's a combination, as mentioned before we have another example of Vox shocking Alastor to compare to
No blood
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,621
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It's banned in the UK rn
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The issue is that Alastor is already suffering from internal bleeding due to Valentino's hit, this is just not proof of scaling imo
Why would we assume the stitches are at all like Alastor's regular AP?
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Damn, they really don't have other feats?
Anyway, I'm not really on a concrete proposal. My view's fluctuated a lot. Earlier on in the thread I thought the Vees probably had scaling to Alastor (maybe scaling through others to Charlie stopping Adam with a punch (S1E8, 15:40)), then my thoughts have gone back and forth a bit. Most recently, there was Tllm pointing out that the others had mostly formed the shield, and my realisation that Rosie was asking the weakened Alastor to help out (it didn't seem like she needed him to reach full power to save everyone). OrangeGuy was responding to Tllm saying that perhaps Alastor/Rosie contributed as much as the rest did combined. This would be a solid gap but not gigantic.
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You can check the earlier examples, Al already had stopped bleeding by that point (most obvious to check is when he dodges Vox's teleport with shadow). So that's not valid of an argument
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You can count Vox shocking him but beyond that it's just Big Boy Vox vs Partial Alastor
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Literally this entire season is just Overlords scaling to one another
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I mean even if I were to agree that his internal bleeding just vanished for whatever reason, I do not think drawing a pittance of blood off zapping someone who was injured in the fight in a notable way is remotely valid scaling
ShionAH
He/Him- 20,846
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That is True Form Charlie which is a Top Tier that only like 3 maybe 4 characters would scale
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I think the way to resolve all these sorts of issues is pretty simple:
When you damage a character, you scale to whatever other things damaged them to a lesser extent.
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Internal bleeding 'vanishing for whatever reason' can simply be attributed to the regen of the verse. This season unironically has a few good examples for it.
The main issue is this is the only scaling point and no others actually make sense or work. The Vees are capable of harming Alastor with their moves (if you count the Vox shocking) and make him bleed with some (albeit minor). Plenty of verses have downscaling just for being able to somewhat bruise a character, actually being able to draw blood is notable enough for a downscale.
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