Hellaverse: Might of Lilith overload calcs

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's just a supporting feat anyway

 

[DaReaperMan]

Funniest thing about the whole "T-There's not even a million souls--" is that six people own 'millions' of souls, discounting any other Overlords or stray souls not owned by anyone.

 

[Flowerguy2]

Is Vox really an reliable source to go off of in order to determine the total number of souls residing in Heaven? Considering the fact he's just an resident of Hell, a Sinner most importantly, who is confined inside the Pride Ring and is unable to traverse through Hell completely to actually know the exact population of Heaven.

At best, his statement of "100 billion souls" is most likely just an exaggeration for boastful effects to serve his own fantasies, and it is said within the context of Vox boasting about wanting to assert power and influence over Heaven to "be more than overlords", wanting to feel like a god again to shared that feeling with the Vees, so...

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Tbh 100 billion makes sense. Heaven does not only have humans, but animals and different angels, but I agree that 100 billion isn't the best guess since I doubt that "overpopulation" would count for anything other than dead humans

 

[Qurbonboev]

Two calcs for the same thing, we need to decide what's what. Not much to this.

Any good reason to use 20 psi? 10 psi is enough building with reinforced concrete. If half of city was covered with 20 psi explosion, other half of city for most intends and purposes would have been destroyed too

 

[DaReaperMan]

Any good reason to use 20 psi? 10 psi is enough building with reinforced concrete. If half of city was covered with 20 psi explosion, other half of city for most intends and purposes would have been destroyed too

I will link this to both people

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Any good reason to use 20 psi? 10 psi is enough building with reinforced concrete.

Pentagram City is literally a metropolis like NYC or Vegas. Should have heavily reinforced concrete buildings there.

If half of city was covered with 20 psi explosion, other half of city for most intends and purposes would have been destroyed too

Not sure if this is how explosions work.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Pentagram City is literally a metropolis like NYC or Vegas. Should have heavily reinforced concrete buildings there.

Most big and strong buildings in city would fall under "reinforced concrete building" category (for whom 10 psi is enough). You need 20 psi to destroy heavily built concrete buildings. And it likely refers to large scale infrastructure projects, that use mass concrete, like big dams.

Not sure if this is how explosions work.

Wdym? Explosion that destroyed reinforced concrete building at distance X, would easily destroy smaller and weaker residential structures(which are more prevalent in farther parts of cities) at distance 2X. For most parts, psi 5 is enough to destroy most city areas.

 

[DarkLock92]

Is Vox really an reliable source to go off of in order to determine the total number of souls residing in Heaven? Considering the fact he's just an resident of Hell, a Sinner most importantly, who is confined inside the Pride Ring and is unable to traverse through Hell completely to actually know the exact population of Heaven.

At best, his statement of "100 billion souls" is most likely just an exaggeration for boastful effects to serve his own fantasies, and it is said within the context of Vox boasting about wanting to assert power and influence over Heaven to "be more than overlords", wanting to feel like a god again to shared that feeling with the Vees, so...

According to Baxter, Vox has been pirating Heaven's television channels for decades.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Is Vox really an reliable source to go off of in order to determine the total number of souls residing in Heaven? Considering the fact he's just an resident of Hell, a Sinner most importantly, who is confined inside the Pride Ring and is unable to traverse through Hell completely to actually know the exact population of Heaven.

Vox is confirmed to have pirated Heaven's television for decades, so...

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Most big and strong buildings in city would fall under "reinforced concrete building" category (for whom 10 psi is enough). You need 20 psi to destroy heavily built concrete buildings. And it likely refers to large scale infrastructure projects, that use mass concrete, like big dams.

I dunno man, the 20 PSI value says that it destroys heavily reinforced concrete buildings, and quick google searches say that they exist in metropolis cities, NYC, and Vegas. If Pride Ring’s most prominent city does not have those, I don’t know what does. Are reinforced concrete buildings as rare as hen’s teeth?

Wdym? Explosion that destroyed reinforced concrete building at distance X, would easily destroy smaller and weaker residential structures(which are more prevalent in farther parts of cities) at distance 2X. For most parts, psi 5 is enough to destroy most city areas.

If the area of explosion is half of Pentagram, then it is half of Pentagram. You can’t make the area bigger just because you feel like it lmao.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I dunno man, the 20 PSI value says that it destroys heavily reinforced concrete buildings, and quick google searches say that they exist in metropolis cities, NYC, and Vegas. If Pride Ring’s most prominent city does not have those, I don’t know what does. Are reinforced concrete buildings as rare as hen’s teeth?

They aren't exactly rare. But most of buildings that fall into this category, and exists in the cities(very tall skyscrappers, ) usually reside in centers, where they would have experienced higher overpressure(there also nuclear shelters, that are more dispersed, but I doubt those exists in Hell).

If the area of explosion is half of Pentagram, then it is half of Pentagram. You can’t make the area bigger just because you feel like it lmao.

You are thinking like its video game, where explosions have defined area where they inflict damage, but nothinhg outside of it. IRL explosion have area with radius X, over which they inflict peak overpressure Z. Closer buildings are to center, more overpressure they experience, further, less overpressure. If Explosion inflicted half of Pentagram with 20 psi explosion, other half of city would still be affected by somewhat weaker shockwave, which nevertheless destroy most city buildings(absent ones, that are very rare in outskirts).

Again, most city areas would get completely destroyed by 5 psi(I personally think Atomic Archive have better understanding of how big explosion would interact with metropolis like NYC)

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

We use 20 Psi for explosions that destroy reinforced concret, that's our standard. Every single explosion that "destroys a city" uses 20 Psi. No reason to do different here

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Have to say, don't think this should even be a Calc Group thread.
The main contention between the two calcs is about Hell’s population, a.k.a. in-verse knowledge not math. It'd make way more sense as a CRT.

 

[Qurbonboev]

We use 20 Psi for explosions that destroy reinforced concret, that's our standard. Every single explosion that "destroys a city" uses 20 Psi. No reason to do different here

Ok. If it's the standard, I don't see any good reason to continue arguing. Only things worth discussing are population of Pentagram city and its density.

Have to say, don't think this should even be a Calc Group thread.
The main contention between the two calcs is about Hell’s population, a.k.a. in-verse knowledge not math. It'd make way more sense as a CRT.

Agree

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Have to say, don't think this should even be a Calc Group thread.
The main contention between the two calcs is about Hell’s population, a.k.a. in-verse knowledge not math. It'd make way more sense as a CRT.

I think it’s more about our methods. Treating Pride Ring as a country really puts a bad taste in my mouth.

Besides if it was actually Charlie vs. Vox reliability, then it should be Vox hands down cuz Charlie with her outstanding Average Intelligence and no sources is no competition to Vox with Genius Intelligence and actual sources to get the data. I’m also not even sure that Charlie’s wording actually caps the population at 1B.

 

[hippoishungry]

wait, im confused. why are we using population counting to find the size of pentagram city when we have shots of the entire thing?



wouldnt it be better to pixel scale the city instead?

 

[DaReaperMan]

wait, im confused. why are we using population counting to find the size of pentagram city when we have shots of the entire thing?



wouldnt it be better to pixel scale the city instead?

"This city based on Las Vegas is only 5 Kilometers across!" is all I heard from that.

 

[hippoishungry]

"This city based on Las Vegas is only 5 Kilometers across!" is all I heard from that.

being based on something shouldnt take precedence over visuals of the actual thing

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

being based on something shouldnt take precedence over visuals of the actual thing

4-C DBZ Universes let's gooo

 

[DaReaperMan]

being based on something shouldnt take precedence over visuals of the actual thing

I have a question, this is the capital of Hell, which is notably overpopulated, you know this yes? With a guy who knows his shit saying there's 100 Billion souls in Heaven, and Heaven is never stated to be overpopulated...

So, I am requiring you now to show me a SINGULAR SHOT of the streets being flooded like a central asian country like India, to express such massive overpopulation in the city where the KING OF HELL makes his residence, which is apparently 124.73x smaller than Tucson, Arizona!

And Tucson is not the Capital of Arizona. Pheonix is.

 

[hippoishungry]

I have a question, this is the capital of Hell, which is notably overpopulated, you know this yes? With a guy who knows his shit saying there's 100 Billion souls in Heaven, and Heaven is never stated to be overpopulated...

So, I am requiring you now to show me a SINGULAR SHOT of the streets being flooded like a central asian country like India, to express such massive overpopulation in the city where the KING OF HELL makes his residence, which is apparently 124.73x smaller than Tucson, Arizona!

And Tucson is not the Capital of Arizona. Pheonix is.

"I have a question, this is the capital of Hell, which is notably overpopulated"
"So, I am requiring you now to show me a SINGULAR SHOT of the streets being flooded like a central asian country like India, to express such massive overpopulation in the city"

so hell is overpopulated, therefore pentagram city cant be? i dont really understand the point you're trying to make here.

 

[DaReaperMan]

so hell is overpopulated, therefore pentagram city cant be? i dont really understand the point you're trying to make here.

Read what I said again.

Let me say this like you're 5: Hell is overpopulated, thanks primarily to Sinners in Pride. Pentagram City is the capital of Hell, where more Sinners stick around.

So, I want you, hippoishungry, to get me a shot, a Screencap, a scan, from Hazbin Hotel showing streets absolutely flooded with people, because millions are trying to fit in a single 5-Kilometer radius.

I'm going to tell you right this instant, no shot like this exists. And there are millions of Sinners between six people collectively in Pentagram city, let alone the eight other Overlords, the souls they control, plus the Hellborn in the city, plus the Sinners not affiliated to anyone.

 

[hippoishungry]

Read what I said again.

Let me say this like you're 5: Hell is overpopulated, thanks primarily to Sinners in Pride. Pentagram City is the capital of Hell, where more Sinners stick around.

So, I want you, hippoishungry, to get me a shot, a Screencap, a scan, from Hazbin Hotel showing streets absolutely flooded with people, because millions are trying to fit in a single 5-Kilometer radius.

I'm going to tell you right this instant, no shot like this exists. And there are millions of Sinners between six people collectively in Pentagram city, let alone the eight other Overlords, the souls they control, plus the Hellborn in the city, plus the Sinners not affiliated to anyone.

thats cool, but it doesnt line up with the visuals that the show gives us

what you are arguing is:

hell has billions and billions of people, and pentagram city is the capital of hell, so it must have a significant portion of those people, so clearly pentagram city is hundreds of times larger than the way it was portrayed in the show.

not only do we not get a single metric for how many people are in pentagram city other than a throwaway line from charlie in a single song, there is also no other explanation for why pentagram city should have so many people other than "its a capital"

and since you are so insistant on me providing shots for pentagram city being overpopulated (despite it being repeated in the show), i would like you to provide shots of pentagram city being so massive (hundreds of thousands of square kms on both the calcs) that all the buildings are tiny specs compared to the entirety of the city.

 

[DaReaperMan]

thats cool, but it doesnt line up with the visuals that the show gives us

what you are arguing is:

hell has billions and billions of people, and pentagram city is the capital of hell, so it must have a significant portion of those people, so clearly pentagram city is hundreds of times larger than the way it was portrayed in the show.

not only do we not get a single metric for how many people are in pentagram city other than a throwaway line from charlie in a single song, there is also no other explanation for why pentagram city should have so many people other than "its a capital"

and since you are so insistant on me providing shots for pentagram city being overpopulated (despite it being repeated in the show), i would like you to provide shots of pentagram city being so massive (hundreds of thousands of square kms on both the calcs) that all the buildings are tiny specs compared to the entirety of the city.

Oh, don't we?

Hey look, here's someone who knows her shit saying that there's millions of souls in Pentagram City owned by six people.

You want to know the most recent population check of Tucson? 552,000. Over an area 124.73x LARGER than what you want Pentagram City to be.

So, 3.6231884058x the population, 124.73x smaller of an area. And the streets aren't stuffed constantly.

Want to argue against this? Put the entire show on mute and watch through the entire thing, then tell me the story. THAT is what is required from your argument to work: Ignore every story statement ever given.

 

[hippoishungry]

Oh, don't we?

Hey look, here's someone who knows her shit saying that there's millions of souls in Pentagram City owned by six people.

You want to know the most recent population check of Tucson? 552,000. Over an area 124.73x LARGER than what you want Pentagram City to be.

So, 3.6231884058x the population, 124.73x smaller of an area. And the streets aren't stuffed constantly.

Want to argue against this? Put the entire show on mute and watch through the entire thing, then tell me the story. THAT is what is required from your argument to work: Ignore every story statement ever given

and for your argument to work, you would have to ignore every visual the show has ever given

I think the crux of the argument is that you are using population to argue the size of the city, wheras i am arguing to use pixel scaling to determine the size of the city.

given that i can see you wont back down on this point (and neither will i), i can message some of the calc group members message walls to see what they think about each of our methods if you would like?

 

[DaReaperMan]

and for your argument to work, you would have to ignore every visual the show has ever given

I think the crux of the argument is that you are using population to argue the size of the city, wheras i am arguing to use pixel scaling to determine the size of the city.

given that i can see you wont back down on this point (and neither will i), i can message some of the calc group members message walls to see what they think about each of our methods if you would like?

Funny thing about visuals, between the end of Stayed Gone, a map of Pentagram City, and that screenshot, you'd get different sizes. Because I'm going from a story perspective, your perspective is a fanmade calculation.

The only official statement we have on the size of Pentagram city is "Like a big New York or like, Vegas"

If the story says a bomb is 1 megaton, it goes off, and the calc is 5 megatons, we go with 1 Megaton. Same thing here.

 

[DarkLock92]

Shouldn't we compare the size of the Entertainment District (around V Tower) in both seasons? To me it seems like it's shown to be bigger in season 2.

 

[hippoishungry]

Funny thing about visuals, between the end of Stayed Gone, a map of Pentagram City, and that screenshot, you'd get different sizes. Because I'm going from a story perspective, your perspective is a fanmade calculation.

The only official statement we have on the size of Pentagram city is "Like a big New York or like, Vegas"

If the story says a bomb is 1 megaton, it goes off, and the calc is 5 megatons, we go with 1 Megaton. Same thing here.

then calc it based on those visuals. again, i myself havent made a calculation for how big it is, but im arguing that visuals of a city should take precedence over the population of a city when determining its size

okay

right, and if we had a statement on how big the city was in kms i would 100% support using that. however with your analogy it would be be if the story said a nuclear bomb weighed 20 tons, and then using that statement to determine how much uranium was in the bomb rather than calcing the explosion.

also, what do you think about this: "given that i can see you wont back down on this point (and neither will i), i can message some of the calc group members message walls to see what they think about each of our methods if you would like?"

 

[Qurbonboev]

The only official statement we have on the size of Pentagram city is "Like a big New York or like, Vegas"

Is there any other cities with big Sinner population in Pride Ring?
Cus in vacuum, city "like a big New York" could mean anything between 10 million to 100 billion, since it's not strictly required that capital have most of the population

 

[DaReaperMan]

then calc it based on those visuals. again, i myself havent made a calculation for how big it is, but im arguing that visuals of a city should take precedence over the population of a city when determining its size--

And Population ALSO has a card to play when Visuals are like stylized for time, basically. When you're trying to claim Population doesn't matter, let's think: Can 4 million people since 13 overlords were active ATT, comfortably fit within 25 square kilometers give or take. Minus about 3 square Kilometers because three big building with minimal people in them exist.

Let's look at this image you provided... mhm... yes. Large areas of open space, with big buildings in them. the V Tower only has the three Vees and a select few servants living in them, so it's out. The Embassy in the middle has nobody living in it, and the giant mansion in the bottom right has nobody but the average staff for a mansion, too.

If the story we're given makes no sense with the size of the city a fanmade calculation makes, we throw out the calculation, not the story.

okay

right, and if we had a statement on how big the city was in kms i would 100% support using that. however with your analogy it would be be if the story said a nuclear bomb weighed 20 tons, and then using that statement to determine how much uranium was in the bomb rather than calcing the explosion.

Do these streets look jampacked with people to you?

The only official statement we have on the size of Pentagram city is "Like a big New York or like, Vegas"

Take it or leave it, this is the closest thing to official we have here. I can tell both people behind both calcs to change it to Vegas size if that's what you want, because at it's core your point is valid, what you're trying to go on about with it is not.

also, what do you think about this: "given that i can see you wont back down on this point (and neither will i), i can message some of the calc group members message walls to see what they think about each of our methods if you would like?"

I think this is Hellaverse. We have calcs a year old that haven't been evaluated and couldn't get a CRT done in any less time than multiple months if we tried, because nobody wants to touch a verse with this reputation that the supporters can't even agree with eachother on half the time.

Frankly I'd rather the CGMs read the entire thread rather than just one chunk of it, evaluate the calc they prefer(Or make a new one with Vegas, who knows) and go ahead. @Dark-Carioca showed preference for the High 6-C calc over discord.

Is there any other cities with big Sinner population in Pride Ring?
Cus in vacuum, city "like a big New York" could mean anything between 10 million to 100 billion, since it's not strictly required that capital have most of the population

Pentagram City is where we know most of the Sinner population to be, and the population of Hellborn to be dwarfed by Sinners. The only other city we have actual information on for this sort of thing is Imp city, which... Do I even need to tell you which species has the most population in the city? We rarely see sinners there, with the only reason they seem to show up is to interact with I.M.P, because otherwise it's all Imps and Hellhounds.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

like a central asian country like India

As a Central Asian, you mixed up your geography here

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

and for your argument to work, you would have to ignore every visual the show has ever given

Wait wth is this show mixing up its proportions making Stolas visibly seen on the Moon while Moon itself is fully seen?

Idk man, cry me a river about visuals and I wouldn’t care unless you logically reconcile it with what the series consistently states. It’s not my fault that animators sacrificed or didn’t consider proportions for the sake of the visuals in the show: if it ain’t making any sense, then it ain’t making any sense.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm neutral on all this stuff about how big Sin City is, or how destructive the explosion should be taken as.

But since this is important for scaling the feat, here's an informative blog I made, measuring how long the various hope-beams spent forming the shield.

tl;dr if we simply each add up every character, we get 1852.82 seconds. If y'all want to do something more fancy with it, or argue against its usability, feel free to.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm neutral on all this stuff about how big Sin City is, or how destructive the explosion should be taken as.

But since this is important for scaling the feat, here's an informative blog I made, measuring how long the various hope-beams spent forming the shield.

tl;dr if we simply each add up every character, we get 1852.82 seconds. If y'all want to do something more fancy with it, or argue against its usability, feel free to.

I will be using this in the actual application CRT, basically under an Agnaa method section

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Chritin]

I listed my minor grievance within the first calc, but my primary issue with how these two calcs were made is assuming that the 100 billion comment is only talking about heaven, when the song itself is about how Vees are looking to rule both heaven and hell. The 100 billion comment also lines up with IRL estimates on the number of humans who have ever existed, so to say that heaven is at 100 billion and for hell to still have an overwhelming majority makes no sense to me.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I listed my minor grievance within the first calc, but my primary issue with how these two calcs were made is assuming that the 100 billion comment is only talking about heaven, when the song itself is about how Vees are looking to rule both heaven and hell.

No, it says that “up there”, 100B souls are awaiting, thus talking only about Неаven.

 

[Chritin]

No, it says that “up there”, 100B souls are awaiting, thus talking only about Неаven.

The greater context of the song is them ruling both heaven and hell together though. If you want get really technical with the lyrics, saying that the souls in heaven are "awaiting" implies that they are just waiting to be ruled when that isn't the case. "Once We Get Up There" isn't about the Vee's just ruling up to heaven then being given power, it's about them ascending to godhood and literally taking over heaven. The souls "awaiting" anything refers to after they become gods, once ALL souls of both heaven and hell are conquered.

If you go with assuming heaven alone is 100B, you are just taking a consistent statistic and bloating it improve the calc. Like, I have no other issues with it other than the number is a fairly big high-ball.

 

[Agnaa]

No, it says that “up there”, 100B souls are awaiting, thus talking only about Неаven.

Actually, listening to the song again, I think Chritin's right.

Once we get up there, up to the promised land
A hundred billion souls await our every command
We're the biggest fish in hell, how 'bout we upgrade the bowl?
It's time for growth, let's rule 'em both! Take total control

He's not saying that 100 billion souls are waiting "up there", he's saying that once they take control of both (by getting "up there") there will be 100 billion souls awaiting their every command (through a combination of both heaven and hell).