YYH possible speed upgrade?

[Jag50]

I noticed here that Genkai's profile has speed of light stated for a Reiki Technique she uses as a B class human.

Genkai

Genkai was the master of Yusuke Urameshi, as well as a main character in Yu Yu Hakusho series. Yusuke and Kuwabara address Genkai as "Ba-san", which means "Grandmother, old woman". Tier: High 7-C | High 7-C Key: Old Genkai (Spirit Wave surrendered) | Young/Prime Genkai (With Spirit Wave) Name...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Speed, strength and proficiency is tied to the amount of Reiki you have and how well you can utilize it. There's no way Genkai's technique is faster than anybody from Chapter Black and onwards. So everyone's speed would have to be faster.

Also Musashi from earlier into the series has a technique that is specifically stated to rain down Photons on the opponent. He is only C class.

Musashi (Yu Yu Hakusho)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Why aren't everyone from the Dark Tournament and up not scaling off of these? These are Reiki techniques. The implication that Genkai and Musashi have specific attacks that can speedblitz the likes of Sensui, Raizen etc doesn't really work imo.

 

[Jag50]

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[Jag50]

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[Jag50]

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[Apex_Predator_GX]

Looks alright.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@KingTempest @Godernet @RitsuØ1 @Migue79 I am mixed at the moment, but pinging other staff who are "Yu Yu Hakusho fans/experts." Ritsu is also a listed translation helper with Migue also a calc group member and may be able to help with calculation policies and what not.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Ritsu is also a listed translation helper with Migue also a calc group member and may be able to help with calculation policies and what not.

I'm a Korean TH, not a Japanese TH. Can't really help with translations. Also currently busy.

 

[Jag50]

Anything?

 

[Jag50]

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[ReverseCross]

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[Jag50]

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[Qawsedf234]

Ritsu is also a listed translation helper with Migue also a calc group member and may be able to help with calculation policies and what not.

My main issue is that context wise I don't see why either power scales to speed. The Genkai feat is her converting spirit energy to light and the sword guy's attack is just called "Photon Sword" which isn't enough for a SoL rating. Neither are good for a FTL upscale in my view.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm in agreement with Qawsed as I have had doubts.

 

[Jag50]

My main issue is that context wise I don't see why either power scales to speed. The Genkai feat is her converting spirit energy to light and the sword guy's attack is just called "Photon Sword" which isn't enough for a SoL rating. Neither are good for a FTL upscale in my view.

The description of the technique states it rains photons down on the opponent, though?

And we saw the Photon rain hit Kuwabara after the sword draw during their battle.

It is not "Photon sword" it has a specific function of raining the specified photons down on you. This is a Reiki technique.

This thread here even translated it.

Yu Yu Hakusho Major Update

Musashi (Character Profile) Musashi has a technique that shoots countless photons at his opponents, so his Light Manipulation and attack speed should be listed as Speed of Light. 真拔刀流 光子剣!! - Shinsuke sword style photon sword!! Yu Yu Hakusho Koushiki Characters Book, it is said that Musashi...

vsbattles.com

 

[Qawsedf234]

The description of the technique states it rains photons down on the opponent, though?

The ability appears in Chapter 27 of the manga. In neither the Viz or Fan translation are photons mentioned as attacking at all. So as far as I see it it's just an attack name. Additionally the little spheres don't appear in the next attack so I think its just visual flare rather than part of the sword strike.

And we saw the Photon rain hit Kuwabara after the sword draw during their battle.

He was hit by the sword. It's even commented that his body broke the sword. So I don't see where the photons hit him.

This thread here even translated it.

The thread only gets SoL from a databook. In the manga I don't see any energy balls hit Kuwabara and more importantly the energy balls do not meet the criteria for a SoL attack in my view.

If anything that ability should have its speed just removed in my mind.

 

[Jag50]

The ability appears in Chapter 27 of the manga. In neither the Viz or Fan translation are photons mentioned as attacking at all. So as far as I see it it's just an attack name. Additionally the little spheres don't appear in the next attack so I think its just visual flare rather than part of the sword strike.


He was hit by the sword. It's even commented that his body broke the sword. So I don't see where the photons hit him.


The thread only gets SoL from a databook. In the manga I don't see any energy balls hit Kuwabara and more importantly the energy balls do not meet the criteria for a SoL attack in my view.

If anything that ability should have its speed just removed in my mind.

We literally see the shred marks across his attire from the raining down in the 2nd scan you posted.

Also does this wiki not take databooks? Including the Dragon Ball and Naruto ones that get scaled or?

 

[Jag50]

"Musashi's technique is based on throwing balls of energy at opponents, and as the name of the technique suggests, these energy balls are actually photons."

This is not visual flare. And it also lines up directly with the 2nd scan you posted with Kuwabara's condition after the attack.

 

[Qawsedf234]

literally see the shred marks across his attire from the raining down in the 2nd scan you posted.

I only see two shred marks. One from the sword since it broke and I guess one from a energy orb? But like I said it's not used again in the next attack so it's not important for the attack either.

Also does this wiki not take databooks?

They're always secondary canon. In later arcs characters with stated super to hypersonic speeds are considered insane displays of speed. I'm not sure if SoL makes sense.

Musashi's technique is based on throwing balls of energy at opponents, and as the name of the technique suggests, these energy balls are actually photons."

That's an assumption. This is our standard:

Typically, lasers and other light-based attacks are only accepted to really move at the speed of light if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

The beam behaves in a reasonably realistic way, such as reflecting off non-magical mirrors or refracting and diffusing through liquids and materials.
The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.
The beam is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by reliable sources.
The beam originates from a real source of light, such as the Sun or the flash of a camera.
Note that a beam does not automatically qualify for this requirement just by originating from a technological source.
Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show that a beam is not behaving like realistic light:

The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.
The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.
A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.
The beam is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans, as if it was a solid, liquid or gas. It shouldn't disperse when being hit as a substance would, and should not be redirectable without using a mechanism like refraction.
While a laser can in theory push things, through radiation pressure or by causing explosions when vaporizing part of an object, those are niche circumstances and generally a laser should not primarily push things away like a physical projectile would.

The literal only criteria it meets is that something called it a photon. But it's far larger than a photons, imparts physical force, and comes from a non-natural source. This honestly should never have been accepted in the first place.

List me as disagreeing and in my view the speed rating should be removed entirely from him. While Genkai's feat doesn't scale to anyone, that one seems fine to keep.

 

[Jag50]

I only see two shred marks. One from the sword since it broke and I guess one from a energy orb? But like I said it's not used again in the next attack so it's not important for the attack either.


They're always secondary canon. In later arcs characters with stated super to hypersonic speeds are considered insane displays of speed. I'm not sure if SoL makes sense.


That's an assumption. This is our standard:

The literal only criteria it meets is that something called it a photon. But it's far larger than a photons, imparts physical force, and comes from a non-natural source. This honestly should never have been accepted in the first place.

List me as disagreeing and in my view the speed rating should be removed entirely from him. While Genkai's feat doesn't scale to anyone, that one seems fine to keep.

The next attack was a generic sword strike.

https://official.lowee.us/manga/Yu-Yu-Hakusho/0027-024.png

He didn't use it again at all.

Also I'm counting 3 slash marks. One on each shoulder and there is a slash on his knee as well.

Explain the Genkai thing to me again? What part of that technique was accepted as SOL?

 

[ReverseCross]

He was hit by the sword. It's even commented that his body broke the sword. So I don't see where the photons hit him

Please read the explanation in the current profile!

"Shibatto Shining Sword (真抜刀流・光子劍, Shin Battō Ryu: Kōshi Ken, translated as True Unsheathed Blade Style: Photon Sword): This technique has Musashi infusing his weapon with his Spirit Energy, and because the wooden blade is already soaked in latent Spirit Energy, a reaction occurs that allows Musashi to deliver more force with each blow than would normally be attributed to such a weapon."

That is, the reason why the photon reaction didn’t occur in the second attack is because Kuwabara blocked the attack and broke the wooden sword.

 

[KingTempest]

I noticed here that Genkai's profile has speed of light stated for a Reiki Technique she uses as a B class human.

Genkai

Genkai was the master of Yusuke Urameshi, as well as a main character in Yu Yu Hakusho series. Yusuke and Kuwabara address Genkai as "Ba-san", which means "Grandmother, old woman". Tier: High 7-C | High 7-C Key: Old Genkai (Spirit Wave surrendered) | Young/Prime Genkai (With Spirit Wave) Name...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Speed, strength and proficiency is tied to the amount of Reiki you have and how well you can utilize it. There's no way Genkai's technique is faster than anybody from Chapter Black and onwards. So everyone's speed would have to be faster.

Also Musashi from earlier into the series has a technique that is specifically stated to rain down Photons on the opponent. He is only C class.

Musashi (Yu Yu Hakusho)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Why aren't everyone from the Dark Tournament and up not scaling off of these? These are Reiki techniques. The implication that Genkai and Musashi have specific attacks that can speedblitz the likes of Sensui, Raizen etc doesn't really work imo.

Scaling above individuals physical speed ≠ scaling above attack speed. Just needs more support

 

[Qawsedf234]

The next attack was a generic sword strike.

In the fan translation he calls it the same name "Sword of Light". Considering how much less words there are in the Viz version, my assumption is that they cut it out. The anime also has him say "Sword of Light" during that scene, and the dub also states that he won't survive a second shining sword strike; so I want to say the original intention is that its the same attack both times.

Explain the Genkai thing to me again? What part of that technique was accepted as SOL?

The bright light portion of her Flash attack.

Please read the explanation in the current profile!

The profile says the following:

Shibatto Shining Sword (真抜刀流・光子劍, Shin Battō Ryu: Kōshi Ken, translated as True Unsheathed Blade Style: Photon Sword): This technique has Musashi infusing his weapon with his Spirit Energy, and because the wooden blade is already soaked in latent Spirit Energy, a reaction occurs that allows Musashi to deliver more force with each blow than would normally be attributed to such a weapon. In addition, it can kill weaker demons. The sword itself was made by cutting down a 1000-year-old tree and dipped in holy water, making in the perfect demon slaying weapon.

Nothing mentions his sword being broken weakened the attack. If it is mentioned then its in an untranslated and contextless guidebook that still has all the issues I previously mentioned.

 

[ReverseCross]

Musashi’s ability meets the first two criteria:

• The beam is stated to be composed of or consist of photons or light itself, as confirmed by reliable sources.
• The beam originates from a real source of light, such as the Sun or a camera flash.

The first point is supported both by the manga’s original japanese text and by the Yu Yu Hakusho Koushiki Characters Book Reikaishinshiroku, which is considered a secondary canon source, where it is stated that the energy spheres generated with each strike during the reaction are composed of photons.

The second criterion is fulfilled because reiki energy in the series has been shown multiple times to be convertible into photons for example, when Kurama illuminates his surroundings, which is just one instance. Another well-known example is Genkai’s standard ability.

 

[ReverseCross]

Nothing mentions his sword being broken weakened the attack. If it is mentioned then its in an untranslated and contextless guidebook that still has all the issues I previously mentioned.

I didn’t quite understand your question. The attack or blow, the strike was emitted or deflected from the target… I think this explanation summarizes why the photon reaction did not occur in a very simple and understandable way, because as stated here, “a reaction occurs that allows Musashi to deliver more force with each blow than would normally be attributed to such a weapon.”

 

[Qawsedf234]

Musashi’s ability meets the first two criteria:

• The beam is stated to be composed of or consist of photons or light itself, as confirmed by reliable sources.
• The beam originates from a real source of light, such as the Sun or a camera flash.

No, it only meets one criteria, that being that it's called a photon. The second one is not evidence as by the sentence directly below that:

Note that a beam does not automatically qualify for this requirement just by originating from a technological source.

Coming from a source that can emit light sometimes is not the same as being from a real light source.

For stuff against it

The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.

The beam is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans, as if it was a solid, liquid or gas. It shouldn't disperse when being hit as a substance would, and should not be redirectable without using a mechanism like refraction.

It's made of a ball and doesn't move in beams either.

The page even mentions the following:

Finally, note that objects, weapons or projectiles constructed of solid light are not considered to be capable of moving at the speed of light without proper evidence, because light would realistically lose its properties when being made to act in such a manner.

This just isn't lightspeed at all in my view. Nothing provided has changed my stance.

So list me as disagreeing and I also think the rating should be removed.

@KingTempest @DarkDragonMedeus What are your stances regarding this?

 

[Jag50]

Scaling above individuals physical speed ≠ scaling above attack speed. Just needs more support

This still would imply Musashi and Genkai's technique can speedblitz people with A and S class Reiki abilities.

I don't think there needs to be a debate on why neither of these two characters attacks can blitz Sensui tiers and above right?

 

[ReverseCross]

Also, the primitive element that enabled the photon reaction was the wooden sword, but it was broken; therefore, this reaction did not occur.

 

[ReverseCross]

Coming from a source that can emit light sometimes is not the same

Yes, that’s why I included the first criterion as well, since as stated on the page itself it’s possible to scale to the speed of light through several such criteria.

 

[ReverseCross]

So, all these speculations of yours still don’t change anything...

 

[Jag50]

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[Jag50]

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[Jag50]

Musashi’s ability meets the first two criteria:

• The beam is stated to be composed of or consist of photons or light itself, as confirmed by reliable sources.
• The beam originates from a real source of light, such as the Sun or a camera flash.

The first point is supported both by the manga’s original japanese text and by the Yu Yu Hakusho Koushiki Characters Book Reikaishinshiroku, which is considered a secondary canon source, where it is stated that the energy spheres generated with each strike during the reaction are composed of photons.

The second criterion is fulfilled because reiki energy in the series has been shown multiple times to be convertible into photons for example, when Kurama illuminates his surroundings, which is just one instance. Another well-known example is Genkai’s standard ability.

Also why was this entire point ignored?

 

[ReverseCross]

Also why was this entire point ignored?

Honestly, there are a lot of biased moderators, but I don’t want to blame them. In the series, reiki energy has shown similarities to light many times, and some instances were even listed as light itself. Thanks to these, it has been proven that reiki energy can be converted into photon particles, just like the flash effect of a camera.

When the old thread was closed, I added these to the YYH verse’s own page.

"In terms of hax, the verse boasts of plants capable of instantly draining a person's life force or binding them in a dream for eternity, mind manipulation, Musashi’s photon sword, Kurama’s rose that emits light around it, and finally the reiki energy, which shares similarities with a camera flash and has been proven by Genkai to be convertible into photon particles, paint which instantly paralyses anyone who touches it, purification spells which can instantly kill anyone who does not have a pure heart, demons and spirit weapons that can cut through dimensions, an empowered ring which can contain Multi-Continent level threats with a powerful barrier, and more."

But I think this was removed and replaced with just "light manipulation."

 

[ReverseCross]

If you want to know my thoughts on this thread, to be honest, I’m completely neutral about the idea of scaling other characters based on Musashi and Genkai I neither support it nor oppose it.

 

[Jag50]

Honestly, there are a lot of biased moderators, but I don’t want to blame them. In the series, reiki energy has shown similarities to light many times, and some instances were even listed as light itself. Thanks to these, it has been proven that reiki energy can be converted into photon particles, just like the flash effect of a camera.

When the old thread was closed, I added these to the YYH verse’s own page.

"In terms of hax, the verse boasts of plants capable of instantly draining a person's life force or binding them in a dream for eternity, mind manipulation, Musashi’s photon sword, Kurama’s rose that emits light around it, and finally the reiki energy, which shares similarities with a camera flash and has been proven by Genkai to be convertible into photon particles, paint which instantly paralyses anyone who touches it, purification spells which can instantly kill anyone who does not have a pure heart, demons and spirit weapons that can cut through dimensions, an empowered ring which can contain Multi-Continent level threats with a powerful barrier, and more."

But I think this was removed and replaced with just "light manipulation."

There's literally a character named Adam Taurus from RWBY who got accepted for relativistic via particle beam information from a secondary canon video game btw

User blog:WeeklyBattles/RWBY: Adam Blocks a Particle Beam | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom https://share.google/4zya1GLJoUZ6wU0tM


So I don't see why the continuous Reiki = Light conversion abilities wouldn't be accepted here in comparison.

 

[ReverseCross]

If you want to know my thoughts on this thread, to be honest, I’m completely neutral about the idea of scaling other characters based on Musashi and Genkai I neither support it nor oppose it.

If I had to justify this, characters like Sensui who are above Musashi and Genkai have not demonstrated any light speed feats, nor do they possess light manipulation abilities. Therefore, the fact that only a few individuals such as Musashi, Kurama, and Genkai can convert Reiki energy into photon particles must be a special case. However, this doesn’t mean that Reiki energy cannot be converted into photons; it simply suggests that they must have a hidden method for doing so.

 

[Jag50]

If I had to justify this, characters like Sensui who are above Musashi and Genkai have not demonstrated any light speed feats, nor do they possess light manipulation abilities. Therefore, the fact that only a few individuals such as Musashi, Kurama, and Genkai can convert Reiki energy into photon particles must be a special case. However, this doesn’t mean that Reiki energy cannot be converted into photons; it simply suggests that they must have a hidden method for doing so.

Genkai was completely helpless and saw no method of defeating Toguro other than Yusuke doing it. Despite having this light speed Reiki technique which also conveniently can purify and punish malice in characters like Toguro in a single shot.

Sensui's sacred energy is also clarified as being the absolute highest class and highest dimension of Reiki, meaning it's beyond anything that Reiki can accomplish.

 

[ReverseCross]

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[Jag50]

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[ReverseCross]

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