Another Minor Narutoverse Revision

[Testarossa002]

Winning streak about to come to an end
This is going to be my most speculative Narutoverse CRT, and I hope it goes well. I originally planned to use this for upgrading the mid tiers, but that is an issue for another day.

Spoiler: Content

Proposal
Otsutsuki tier fusions and amps should be treated as granting a commensurate degree of boosts across ALL stats.
Very early in Naruto, we were introduced to the concept of Military Ration Pills

Hyorogan - Military Ration Pellets - are a class of nutritional supplements. People say that taking a single pill allows a soldier to fight for three days and nights without rest!
They’re high in protein and easily absorbed, and they have a relaxing effect…. Even as they boost energy. By now, both Kiba’s and Akamaru’s chakra are probably double their normal level.
This is bad news for Naruto. In battle situations, the pellets act as a medicine that distributes the user’s chakra uniformly to every part of his body, making it function as an animal does.

Interpretation
Shinobi-made pills are shown to automatically enhance all aspects of the body equally. In other words, they boost every stat, including speed.
The Otsutsuki clan, being the pinnacle of chakra control in the series, should be capable of applying their chakra amplifications at a level at least comparable to shinobi-made methods.
To clarify what this entails:

• Madara being pumped full of Jūbi-level chakra by Zetsu
• Momoshiki fusing with Kinshiki
• Hagoromo becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchūriki
• Majestic Attire: Susanoo (New era)

The Momoshiki example is especially telling. By consuming Kinshiki’s chakra/soul, he not only gained Kinshiki’s physical strength and unique ability (weapon creation) but also became noticeably faster, yet for some reason, speed is often left out of the upgrade discussion.
Similarly, Hagoromo’s Ten-Tails Jinchūriki form is already accepted as granting increases in physical strength and ninjutsu, but again, speed tends to be excluded.
As further support, it is explicitly stated that an Otsutsuki-based amp enhances all combat aspects proportionately.

What about Urashiki? He also absorbed chakra from high-level fighters like Gaara and Sasuke. Should we now upgrade Jiraiya to god tier levels?
Not quite. Unlike the examples mentioned above, Urashiki doesn’t channel the external chakra directly into his own body. Instead, he stores it inside a gourd and releases it as attacks whenever he deems necessary

That’s all
Agree: @Nierre @FinePoint
Disagree:
Neutral: @Damage3245

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Easy Agreement for now

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is generally consistent imo. Sasuke also assigned Deidara getting slower to him being low on chakra and Ay increasing his chakra quantity directly made him faster.

I don’t remember any counter evidence that would suggest otherwise but if there's none then this should be pretty solid

 

[Damage3245]

The Momoshiki example is especially telling. By consuming Kinshiki’s chakra/soul, he not only gained Kinshiki’s physical strength and unique ability (weapon creation) but also became noticeably faster, yet for some reason, speed is often left out of the upgrade discussion.

It's because not all stats are always upgraded uniformly when a character gets a multiplier.

If a character accesses a new form that makes them both stronger and faster, and then it gets clarified that their strength is tripled. That's not the same thing as their speed being tripled too. All we know is their speed is higher than before.

It's why we have this section in the Multipliers page:

One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to. If a character just gets 10 times more powerful, then that doesn't necessarily means that all of its statistics are multiplied by 10. For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats. A more classical scenario is one where a characters strength increases by some multiplier, but their speed is untouched.

 

[DavidTPPM]

It's because not all stats are always upgraded uniformly when a character gets a multiplier.

If a character accesses a new form that makes them both stronger and faster, and then it gets clarified that their strength is tripled. That's not the same thing as their speed being tripled too. All we know is their speed is higher than before.

It's why we have this section in the Multipliers page:

That is true but like you said that's mostly when a character gets a new form because different forms can have some unique properties besides being just a stat amp. Sage mode for example doesn't just give you additional chakra but also the unique properties of nature energy.

But what's being mentioned in the OP is just straightforward stat amps like 1 Otsutsuki absorbing another Otsutsuki or someone who already has 6 paths senjutsu absorbing more 6 paths senjutsu. So ultimately it's just be that the energy that's responsible for stats is multiplied meaning all stats being equally amped makes a lot more sense here and seems consistent with feats

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Pretty solid premise if you ask me.

 

[Damage3245]

That is true but like you said that's mostly when a character gets a new form because different forms can have some unique properties besides being just a stat amp. Sage mode for example doesn't just give you additional chakra but also the unique properties of nature energy.

But what's being mentioned in the OP is just straightforward stat amps like 1 Otsutsuki absorbing another Otsutsuki or someone who already has 6 paths senjutsu absorbing more 6 paths senjutsu. So ultimately it's just be that the energy that's responsible for stats is multiplied meaning all stats being equally amped makes a lot more sense here and seems consistent with feats

I don't really see enough in the OP that states all stats are being amped equally.

This bit:

As further support, it is explicitly stated that an Otsutsuki-based amp enhances all combat aspects proportionately.

Makes no mention of the stats being "proportionately" enhanced, even in the official translation.

The scan for the Military Ration Pill doesn't say all stats are enhanced equally either. It just says that the user's chakra is spread uniformly to every part of the body.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Makes no mention of the stats being "proportionately" enhanced, even in the official translation.

Naruto did say "Such power and speed" then proceeds to say that the amp could have proportional benefits to jutsus as well in the second page. Which does lend credence to the amp including speed, since Naruto did state both power and speed got better.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The scan for the Military Ration Pill doesn't say all stats are enhanced equally either. It just says that the user's chakra is spread uniformly to every part of the body.

Amplifying chakra at the feet amplifies your movement speed (71, 76)

 

[Testarossa002]

It's because not all stats are always upgraded uniformly when a character gets a multiplier.

I'm not really arguing for a multiplier

If a character accesses a new form that makes them both stronger and faster, and then it gets clarified that their strength is tripled. That's not the same thing as their speed being tripled too. All we know is their speed is higher than before.

Same as above. Momoshiki's stuff isn't a multiplier. 2 people merge and became 1. As a result, they gain ALL visible characteristics of the two characters. Leaving one aspect out for no reason makes no sense

Makes no mention of the stats being "proportionately" enhanced, even in the official translation.

It does

相当上がってんな

The scan for the Military Ration Pill doesn't say all stats are enhanced equally either. It just says that the user's chakra is spread uniformly to every part of the body.

That's the point
Original stats:
Power: 5
Speed: 4
10 units of chakra are spread uniformly to all aspects of the body (including the parts that fuel the stats above)
New stats:
Power: 10
Speed: 9
Unless your point is that the chakra that's being spread doesn't amp the body at all

 

[karo_senpaii]

Easy agree for me. Especially with the fusion stuff. It should be just the addition of both of them stats all round

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not really arguing for a multiplier

Apologies. I may have misunderstood. What specific changes would occur on the profiles from this proposal?

 

[Testarossa002]

Apologies. I may have misunderstood. What specific changes would occur on the profiles from this proposal?

Instead of a multiplier, think of it as an addition.
Momoshiki's stats + Kinshiki's stat = Fused Momoshiki
Sasuke’s Susanoo + Kurama Mode (six paths) = MAS
As for specific changes, I can’t say for now because I have some issues with the current ftl+ scaling (my bad). So, some people may not be scaling the way they are currently scaling or even scaling at all. So, no specific values for now
What is certain is that there would be an upgrade should this thread pass.
I really hope the promise of an upgrade won't affect your decision on this thread

 

[Damage3245]

Instead of a multiplier, think of it as an addition.
Momoshiki's stats + Kinshiki's stat = Fused Momoshiki
Sasuke’s Susanoo + Kurama Mode (six paths) = MAS
As for specific changes, I can’t say for now because I have some issues with the current ftl+ scaling (my bad). So, some people may not be scaling the way they are currently scaling or even scaling at all. So, no specific values for now
What is certain is that there would be an upgrade should this thread pass.
I really hope the promise of an upgrade won't affect your decision on this thread

Thanks for clarifying. The potential for an upgrade doesn't concern me that much so much as whether the scaling will make sense afterwards. But the pieces of evidence are something I'm a bit dubious about. You mention that the Otsutsuki Clan in general are the pinnacle of chakra control, but the scan you use is only for Hagoromo specifically:

The Otsutsuki clan, being the pinnacle of chakra control in the series, should be capable of applying their chakra amplifications at a level at least comparable to shinobi-made methods.

 

[sageof8paths]

Winning streak about to come to an end
This is going to be my most speculative Narutoverse CRT, and I hope it goes well. I originally planned to use this for upgrading the mid tiers, but that is an issue for another day.

Spoiler: Content

Proposal
Otsutsuki tier fusions and amps should be treated as granting a commensurate degree of boosts across ALL stats.
Very early in Naruto, we were introduced to the concept of Military Ration Pills

Interpretation
Shinobi-made pills are shown to automatically enhance all aspects of the body equally. In other words, they boost every stat, including speed.
The Otsutsuki clan, being the pinnacle of chakra control in the series, should be capable of applying their chakra amplifications at a level at least comparable to shinobi-made methods.
To clarify what this entails:

• Madara being pumped full of Jūbi-level chakra by Zetsu
• Momoshiki fusing with Kinshiki
• Hagoromo becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchūriki
• Majestic Attire: Susanoo (New era)

The Momoshiki example is especially telling. By consuming Kinshiki’s chakra/soul, he not only gained Kinshiki’s physical strength and unique ability (weapon creation) but also became noticeably faster, yet for some reason, speed is often left out of the upgrade discussion.
Similarly, Hagoromo’s Ten-Tails Jinchūriki form is already accepted as granting increases in physical strength and ninjutsu, but again, speed tends to be excluded.
As further support, it is explicitly stated that an Otsutsuki-based amp enhances all combat aspects proportionately.

What about Urashiki? He also absorbed chakra from high-level fighters like Gaara and Sasuke. Should we now upgrade Jiraiya to god tier levels?
Not quite. Unlike the examples mentioned above, Urashiki doesn’t channel the external chakra directly into his own body. Instead, he stores it inside a gourd and releases it as attacks whenever he deems necessary

That’s all
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

agreed i always felt the majestic attire susano as well and fused momoshiki’s were incredible clear speed advantages but were never treated as such

 

[Testarossa002]

Thanks for clarifying. The potential for an upgrade doesn't concern me that much so much as whether the scaling will make sense afterwards. But the pieces of evidence are something I'm a bit dubious about. You mention that the Otsutsuki Clan in general are the pinnacle of chakra control, but the scan you use is only for Hagoromo specifically:

I mean, he's a watered down Otsutsuki. His proficiency with it should be, at best, comparable to full blooded members of the clan
Other supporting points include:

• Ninjutsu (use of hand seals) is an pale attempt at imitating the techniques of the Otsutsuki (shinjutsu) (Boruto: NNG; Chapter 75)
• Chakra is regarded as property of the Otsutsuki and as such, they have the most efficiency with its use (Boruto Movie Novelization)

Another minor point

• Otsutsuki technology far surpasses what ninjas can achieve. I'm using the military pill as a point of comparison. (Boruto: NNG; Chapter 75)

 

[Ezaru]

Kaguya is stated to get stronger in both power and speed from more Chakra

 

[karo_senpaii]

Bump

 

[ThienDe01]

Agree, It's fine for me

 

[Nierre]

I agree with Fused Momoshiki getting amped in all stats equally, and same with MAS and Kama. I don't recall if MAS has any antifeats, but the others are reasonable.

I'm hesitant on giving a blanket agree for all Otsutsuki amps and fusions just cause on the top of my head I don't recall if there are any anti feats for other abilities and generally speaking I'd rather evaluate case by case than agreeing with something that I disagree with that I may have missed and having make a CRT on that down the line.

 

[Testarossa002]

I agree with Fused Momoshiki getting amped in all stats equally, and same with MAS and Kama. I don't recall if MAS has any antifeats, but the others are reasonable.

What about this?

Hagoromo becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchūriki

We already use this for AP and Co
Anyway, I agree with your sentiment regarding a blanket rating
Although, I can’t recall any more fusion/amps outside of the ones in the OP

Thank you for your vote

 

[FinePoint]

Nierre seems to make sense to me here.

It's because not all stats are always upgraded uniformly when a character gets a multiplier.

It sort of depends on context. The actual standard is written in a way that urges being conservative but doesn't forbid assuming stats other than AP are also amped by general 'power ups' if it's narratively implied and consistent.

That is to say, if most knowledgeable members think it makes sense for it to amplify speed too, then I'd say I approve since nothing about the evidence would lead me to assume otherwise.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not sure if it holds up for all examples. For instance:

Madara being pumped full of Jūbi-level chakra by Zetsu

Presumably this is to mean that Kaguya is twice as fast as Madara due to him being injected with so much chakra. But both Six Paths Madara and Kaguya are able to fight on relative terms with both Naruto and Sasuke. Who do Naruto and Sasuke scale to? Kaguya? Making them twice as fast as Madara? And if Madara scales to Naruto and Sasuke in any way, that means he scales to be twice as fast as himself?

Until we can see how this actually affects the profiles I don't think we can give a blanket approval to all such boosts.

 

[FinePoint]

Presumably this is to mean that Kaguya is twice as fast as Madara due to him being injected with so much chakra. But both Six Paths Madara and Kaguya are able to fight on relative terms with both Naruto and Sasuke. Who do Naruto and Sasuke scale to? Kaguya? Making them twice as fast as Madara? And if Madara scales to Naruto and Sasuke in any way, that means he scales to be twice as fast as himself?

You could just assume that being twice as fast doesn't stop you from fighting on relative terms.

I'm not familiar enough with the verse to say. Are there other examples of such a gap creating an unrelative fight?

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not sure if it holds up for all examples. For instance:



Presumably this is to mean that Kaguya is twice as fast as Madara due to him being injected with so much chakra. But both Six Paths Madara and Kaguya are able to fight on relative terms with both Naruto and Sasuke.

Are they? Madara was basically equal to Naruto and Sasuke managed to react to him pretty well himself.

But Kaguya was absolutely dogwalking them in comparison. She blitzed Narutos clones, kept up with 4 different Narutos at once, dodged a chidori amped sneak attack from Sasuke while low on chakra, and even dodged and blitzed his perfect Susanoo which generally scales above Sasukes physicals.

I think it's clear as day that Kaguya was in a completely different league from Madara in all stats.

And while Naruto did seem to do decently against Kaguya you have to keep the context in mind. Besides the 1 emotional amp outlier on a fatigued Kaguya, Naruto only landed hits on Kaguya through deceptions and tricks. He needed to outsmart her over and over again just to stall her, not even come close to doing significant damage or anything like that.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it's clear as day that Kaguya was in a completely different league from Madara in all stats.

And while Naruto did seem to do decently against Kaguya you have to keep the context in mind. Besides the 1 emotional amp outlier on a fatigued Kaguya, Naruto only landed hits on Kaguya through deceptions and tricks. He needed to outsmart her over and over again just to stall her, not even come close to doing significant damage or anything like that.

I'm just going by what we have on Naruto's profile that implies relativity:

Naruto: even higher with Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode (Traded blows with Post-Shinju Absorption Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's Limbo clones with his own Shadow clones and prior to being overpowered, Naruto using his chakra arms was briefly able to clash against Kaguya's Yasogami Kuugeki. Sidestepped Kaguya's attempt to grab him, with both Black Zetsu and Kaguya commenting on his reflexes

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm just going by what we have on Naruto's profile that implies relativity:

Naruto: even higher with Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode (Traded blows with Post-Shinju Absorption Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's Limbo clones with his own Shadow clones and prior to being overpowered, Naruto using his chakra arms was briefly able to clash against Kaguya's Yasogami Kuugeki. Sidestepped Kaguya's attempt to grab him, with both Black Zetsu and Kaguya commenting on his reflexes

I mean, I can understand why you would see it as implying relativity. But Kaguyas profile says this

She moved too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke to react and casually overwhelmed hundreds of Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto Shadow Clones in speed

Which outright tells us she's significantly superior to Sasuke and Narutos clones.

And Naruto has multiple ways of sensing danger. Him reacting to Kaguya is definitely understandable even if she's twice as fast as him. 2x gap is ultimately not THAT great, especially when you look at how large the distance between Kaguya and Naruto was in all cases where he reacted to her.

 

[Testarossa002]

Presumably this is to mean that Kaguya is twice as fast as Madara due to him being injected with so much chakra. But both Six Paths Madara and Kaguya are able to fight on relative terms with both Naruto and Sasuke. Who do Naruto and Sasuke scale to? Kaguya? Making them twice as fast as Madara? And if Madara scales to Naruto and Sasuke in any way, that means he scales to be twice as fast as himself?

That Madara scales well above the Juubi
It's not going to make Kaguya twice as fast as that Madara

 

[Damage3245]

That Madara scales well above the Juubi
It's not going to make Kaguya twice as fast as that Madara

I see. So what changes would it entail exactly? You included it in your list of examples in the OP.

 

[Testarossa002]

On the issue of Naruto ~ Kaguya scaling
It's a spillover from previous revisions
Until her nerf from chakra drain and Naruto's empowerment, Kaguya was superior to both of them consistently
Naruto kept up in situational scenarios

I see. So what changes would it entail exactly? You included it in your list of examples in the OP.

Honestly, I was planning on adding Madara's rating and the Juubi's rating for Kaguya but I was running into some issues
The difference (+1 c) is rather minimal so I'm ditching that line of scaling completely

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Also isn't Madara being pumped with more chakra....unquantifiable? so there's no AP upgrades let alone speed upgrades that's valid to be placed on the profiles outside "higher (stronger/faster than before)"

 

[Damage3245]

I'll remain neutral on this. I need to look into the wiki's standards more on combo attacks and characters combining/fusing.

 

[LordTracer]

I’m in agreement with Nierre.