Resizing/Retiering the GSR

[Catzlaflame]

Okay, thanks

I’m in agreement with the OP. Although there are some concerns to be had (particularly regarding our policy on Wog and the like), I think the unique circumstances allow for the conclusions that are made here.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@Tankirbmon Should I count the votes of @Promestein and @FinePoint or should we take more effort in convicning them?

 

[FinePoint]

@Tankirbmon Should I count the votes of @Promestein and @FinePoint or should we take more effort in convicning them?

Well you should count my vote regardless, but you can always try to convince me.

I will say the further context that even in the source itself they claim it's not canon only cements my previous opinions, though.

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

My apologies for disturbing, but Hagane requested that I should ping you here for further input.

 

[Tankirbmon]

@Tankirbmon Should I count the votes of @Promestein and @FinePoint or should we take more effort in convicning them?

We likely won't be able to convince them.

It does seem clear that the artists & the writer clearly had different ideas for the GSR's height

It's a rough situation because the visuals are quite literally working with a different height for the character than what Greg farshtey wrote. And IMO it's a size that makes more sense and melds better with the rest of the world. But what's more canon? What we visually see and created by the original creator, or the size written by the writer?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I will say the further context that even in the source itself they claim it's not canon only cements my previous opinions, though.

Basically what we have is a canon size for the island, a semi-canon size for the GSR that aligns with the size of the island, and a dubiously canon size for the GSR that essentially throws any sense of the island covering the entire face of the GRS out the window!

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@Tankirbmon How many staff votes do we need since we have three disagrees?

 

[Tankirbmon]

@Tankirbmon How many staff votes do we need since we have three disagrees?

I am not the guy to ask this. I have no idea.

 

[FinePoint]

@Tankirbmon How many staff votes do we need since we have three disagrees?

We don't have hard rules for rejection the same way we do for acceptance.

That said, three votes would normally be enough for acceptance, so I'm assuming it's enough for rejection too if it remains unanimous.

You'd probably need a lot of new votes to outweigh the existing ones.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

We don't have hard rules for rejection the same way we do for acceptance.

That said, three votes would normally be enough for acceptance, so I'm assuming it's enough for rejection too if it remains unanimous.

Do retired Bureaucrat votes count as valid staff votes?

 

[KingTempest]

Not super knowledgeable here but while we like having official statements, it's absolutely possible to invoke death of the author if necessary

Pretty much this, if it's wildly inconsistent then scrap it

 

[FinePoint]

Do retired Bureaucrat votes count as valid staff votes?

I believe technically not according to the rules, but their input would probably be held highly.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Pretty much this, if it's wildly inconsistent then scrap it

So you vote in favor of the OP?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Well, technically it can be, assuming the head is far smaller than the body.

Which would make this just an artistic inconsistency.

This is like saying that the Island of Mata Nui is bigger, @Vrokorta had something to say about this

My reasoning is this. We have two sizes for the GSR, & one size for the island. We know how big they are relative to each other. One size for the GSR doesn't line up with the size for the island, but the other size does. Given the numbers we have, it seems most reasonable to go with what's most consistent. We don't have two sizes for the island the same way we have two sizes for the GSR.
Think about it, we have three sizes, & two line up. Are we really going to throw away two consistent sizes in favor of one outlier? Sure, there's little to contradict the larger end, but there's nothing contradicting the smaller size either. There's more to support the smaller size in-universe than there is the larger size.

 

[FinePoint]

Vrokorta has something to say about this

Well to me this is sort of an issue of which source we give more credit.
To me, the current people in charge of the story have more authority, especially given the other statement isn't considered actual canon even by the person making it.

Whether or not it's consistent is less of a concern to me here. I'm willing to accept some level of inconsistency in fiction, since it's inevitable. Trying to make everything both completely consistent and completely accurate at the same time is probably a losing battle.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Whether or not it's consistent is less of a concern to me here. I'm willing to accept some level of inconsistency in fiction, since it's inevitable.

Even if it contradicts how the lore works?

 

[Lonkitt]

You don't get what I'm saying. Faber's height calc is based off of Denmark's size and is done by transposing the GSR over a map of Europe, with its head at Denmark. Mata Nui is much, much bigger than Denmark; Denmark's surface area is 43 thousand kilometers squared. Mata Nui's is roughly 138 thousand. If we base the height off of Faber's figure - which he does not swear by - we have to throw out every other officially stated size. In no world is Faber's figure consistent with canon.

I oppose the change completely. Faber does not treat his statement on the height as factual or canon, and if we go by it, it calls every other size measurement into question. I do believe this was his intention, but the post given clearly implies that it is no longer canon, and the contradictions to it are far more numerous than Farshtey's WoG on the height of the GSR alone.

I think Promestein and FinePoint's arguments make a lot of sense here

Put me down as disagreeing with the GSR resizing

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I think Promestein and FinePoint's arguments make a lot of sense here

Although Promestein hasn't explained the issue with the Mata Nui only covering the GSR's nose if it were as tall as the diameter of the Earth

 

[Lonkitt]

Although Promestein hasn't explained the issue with the Mata Nui only covering the GSR's nose if it were as tall as the diameter of the Earth

And I still agree with Prom and FinePoint's arguments

Also, you can't put yourself in the "Agree" section for the revision. That's a given, you're the person proposing the revision. That section is strictly supposed to be for those who agree with you

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Emirp sumitpo @FinePoint @Catzlaflame @KingTempest

Hagane wants me to ping some staff members here. Are any of you willing to take a look again please?

 

[FinePoint]

Hagane wants me to ping some staff members here. Are any of you willing to take a look again please?

My opinion hasn't changed.

The crux of the issue is basically just which source we believe.

One makes more logical sense but isn't technically canon, one makes less logical sense but is technically canon.

And I'll give the OP credit in that the canon size is definitely stupid, but it's not our job to fix bad writing, just to powerscale it.

 

[FinePoint]

Speaking of, I'm find the exact source where the 40 million ft height comes from, and I've coming up empty so far

It comes from BIONICLE: The Legend Reborn Official Movie Guide.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

It comes from BIONICLE: The Legend Reborn Official Movie Guide.

Thank you very much, but also I ended up finding it on my own from here:

"Once, there was a great ruler named Mata Nui. He was incredibly powerful — his body was made of metal and stood 40 million feet high. He traveled through space, exploring new worlds. His creators, known as the Great Beings, intended for him to fulfill a vital mission. But first, they wished him to learn as much as he could about the universe around him." - BIONICLE: The Legend Reborn Prologue

 

[Neutralino]

It comes from BIONICLE: The Legend Reborn Official Movie Guide.

Really? Good to know there's a second source. The source I read it from is chapter 4 of the Reign of Shadows web serial written by Farshtey.

BIONICLEstory.com

Bionicle

biomediaproject.com

Makuta Teridax, in the huge robotic body that once belonged to Mata Nui, surveyed the world he stood upon. There was nothing but water for as far as the eye could see – and when one is 40 million feet tall, reflected Makuta, one can see quite far.

 

[FinePoint]

Really? Good to know there's a second source. The source I read it from is chapter 4 of the Reign of Shadows web serial written by Farshtey.

BIONICLEstory.com

Bionicle

biomediaproject.com

I suppose that further cements it as canon then.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I suppose that further cements it as canon then.

Looks more like now the debate is based on whether we accept the GSR size based on textual evidence or visual evidence. In my stance I would support visual evidence because Bionicle is a series based on things like visuals, the size being more inline with the lore (especially with the Island of Mata Nui being a mask in of itself of the GSR), and the fact that Faber was around for the whole way through.

 

[Damage3245]

My opinion hasn't changed.

The crux of the issue is basically just which source we believe.

One makes more logical sense but isn't technically canon, one makes less logical sense but is technically canon.

And I'll give the OP credit in that the canon size is definitely stupid, but it's not our job to fix bad writing, just to powerscale it.

Is there a possible compromise option between the two?

 

[Vrokorta]

If it's agreed upon, we could separate them with a "likely" rating, including both values based on each size, & specify that both sizes have worthwhile evidence supporting them.

 

[Neutralino]

Does VSB have prior precedent for other settings that had conflicting but equally credible information like this?

 

[FinePoint]

Is there a possible compromise option between the two?

We probably could list the technically non-canon calculations as a Possibly, I think.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I ended up making this calc since the original calc used a different method to the new calc, and so needed to be updated

 

[GyroNutz]

Also, you can't put yourself in the "Agree" section for the revision. That's a given, you're the person proposing the revision. That section is strictly supposed to be for those who agree with you

I think you can agree with your own revisions - a member posting a CRT and a staff agreeing to it and a staff posting the exact same CRT with a member agreeing to it should have the same weight in theory.

As for the CRT itself, I remember a similar-ish case with Beefcake from One-Punch Man, where iirc he was calculated to be thousands of metres tall, which made some things in canon line up better (he crushed a city by falling onto it), but due to inconsistencies the stated height of 270m was chosen. In this case, the artist’s interpretation isnt canon so shouldn’t have much more credibility as a value than a calculation - even if it lines up better, the more consistent option would be the 40 million figure.

That said, logically speaking FinePoint’s compromise option seems fine here

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

the artist’s interpretation isnt canon so shouldn’t have much more credibility as a value than a calculation - even if it lines up better, the more consistent option would be the 40 million figure.

Are we trying to say that the Island of Mata Nui should be larger even though we don't have a larger size for the island?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

That said, logically speaking FinePoint’s compromise option seems fine here

In all seriousness though, I would like to get this CRT done and over with, it's been up for too long and I made another calc using same method for the 40 million height

 

[Antvasima]

So is the staff consensus here to use FinePoint's compromise option or to simply use 40 million feet?

 

[Antvasima]

So is the staff consensus here to use FinePoint's compromise option or to simply use 40 million feet?

@Catzlaflame @KingTempest @Elizio33 @Damage3245 @GyroNutz

 

[Ezaru]

I'd cast some doubt on this as a perfectly reliable statement.

Faber pretty much avoids saying whether or not it's canon or not and expresses that Mata Nui is not consistent with Denmark's geography or size, and his comparison to Denmark is where the height figure comes from. It's not like Faber intended it to be 3,150km; he's just saying that if you do this, you'd get 3,150km as the height.

If you blend the shape and size of Denmark with the features of hidden robot face and the yin yang swirling shape of a galaxy then you have the outlines of what created Mata Nui.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@Ezaru Promestein still has not provided the list of contradictions from using the 3150 height. And even if the area and geography of Mata Nui may not be the same as Denmark, it still doesn't make it big enough to cover the face of the 40 million ft GSR

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

So is the staff consensus here to use FinePoint's compromise option or to simply use 40 million feet?

The newer calc that uses the 40 million ft height I made still needs to be evaluated

 

[GrathOfLux]

The blog post by Faber is very weak evidence on its own - he says as much in the first paragraph.

Much has been said about the size of the giant robot Mata Nui and what you see here is not canon or anything.

Independently of this, however, I'm not entirely sure I understand the evidence for Mata Nui's size in the first place. Faber's comments indicate that, yes, the size and shape of Denmark were an inspiration when designing Mata Nui. This doesn't equate to the two being the exact same size, and they clearly aren't for that matter - it was evidently used as a reference point when designing Mata Nui, but this isn't proof the direct comparison to Denmark's size is accurate. And if the heart of this whole contradiction is because asserting Mata Nui to be the size of Denmark, on the basis of these claimed non-canon statements, leads the canon 40 million feet height for the GSR to not make sense, then we would obviously throw out the size of Mata Nui before we throw out the size of the GSR.

So I disagree with the thread.