Question about Concept of Concept

[NousGalia]

Dao is the concept that governs the entire reality. Dao exists before and creates the whole reality.
Thien is directly declared as "the concept of Dao" and shapes Dao, maintaining the existence of Dao whether Dao exists or does not exist. However, when Thien is eradicated, Dao will disappear immediately. Yet when Dao disappears, Thien is not affected.

So is Thien the concept of the concept? According to the above, what abilities will Dao and Thien have?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Dao is Conceptual (Type 2), Thien is Conceptual (Type 1).

 

[Napoleondevious]

Dao is Conceptual (Type 2), Thien is Conceptual (Type 1).

i dont think so, dao seems type 1, thien simply more fundamental, or type 1 to type 1

both are type 1
"1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."
that seems to be exactly whats being described, with thien being this other concept

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

i dont think so, dao seems type 1, thien simply more fundamental, or type 1 to type 1

both are type 1
"1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."
that seems to be exactly whats being described, with thien being this other concept

Governing and exist before reality doesn't necessarily means Type 1. Type 2 can do the same thing.

 

[Napoleondevious]

Governing and exist before reality doesn't necessarily means Type 1. Type 2 can do the same thing.

pretty sure existing before reality implies an independence over what they govern (if what they define is in reality ofc im assuming this)
"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern"
if it exists without it, it is independent

in contrast to type 2 :
"2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept"

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

pretty sure existing before reality implies an independence over what they govern (if what they define is in reality ofc im assuming this)
"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern"
if it exists without it, it is independent

in contrast to type 2 :
"2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept"

It gives the implication, but doesn't necessarily grant them a Type 1 unless there's a statement saying otherwise. Dao can exist before reality is because of Thien influence, not by it's own state.

 

[Napoleondevious]

It gives the implication, but doesn't necessarily grant them a Type 1 unless there's a statement saying otherwise.

saying what? that its a "type 1 concept on VSBW"? idk man it seems to meet the criteria listed on the page, Y defines, governs X and is independent in relation to X's existence, so Y is a type 1 concept of X ?

Dao can exist before reality is because of Thien influence, not by it's own state.

i dont see how is that relevant, that also seems it be literally explained in type 1 definition
"1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."
as i said thien would fall under this "other concept" more fundamental that dao

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

saying what? that its a "type 1 concept on VSBW"? idk man it seems to meet the criteria listed on the page, Y defines, governs X and is independent in relation to X's existence, so Y is a type 1 concept of X ?

The statement of it being unaffected by the destruction of the object, it's a chinese fiction after all, Thien getting that detail explanation while Dao isn't is a red flag. I said "not necessarily," meaning that it can qualifies but doesn't always be the case in every fictions. A concept that is predating reality doesn't always mean they're independent by the objects they govern, as the connection can be built once that object is created.

i dont see how is that relevant

It is relevant, because the decision making whether Dao exist or not lies upon Thien. Not by the state of Dao in the first place.

that also seems it be literally explained in type 1 definition

The use of "maybes" insinuate the concept being at the same level to that independent concept, not necessarily means above it. Like, they can obviously affect each other, but doesn't dictate one or another.

 

[NousGalia]

Governing and exist before reality doesn't necessarily means Type 1. Type 2 can do the same thing.

Dao here is concept type 1. When reality is destroyed, Dao still exists and will recreate reality. But when Dao is destroyed by the transcendent beings, reality is immediately annihilated.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Dao here is concept type 1. When reality is destroyed, Dao still exists and will recreate reality.

I'm answering based on what the OP said. If that's the case, then fine.

 

[NousGalia]

I'm answering based on what the OP said. If that's the case, then fine.

I still wonder at what level Thien will be when Dao is concept type 1? In the story, there is also a part that says Thien has a transcendent nature compared to Dao, but I'm not sure if that is an exaggeration or not?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I still wonder at what level Thien will be when Dao is concept type 1? In the story, there is also a part that says Thien has a transcendent nature compared to Dao, but I'm not sure if that is an exaggeration or not?

Concept Type 1, but more potent.

 

[NousGalia]

Concept Type 1, but more potent.

Thien can't come up with concept type 1 - 1 layer abstraction, right? Thien governs Dao (fundamental concept) after all.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Thien can't come up with concept type 1 - 1 layer abstraction, right? Thien governs Dao (fundamental concept) after all.

Thien is not qualified to be having layer. They need to show to be able to bypass a resistance. Just being stronger is not enough for having layer hax.

 

[NousGalia]

Thien is not qualified to be having layer. They need to show to be able to bypass a resistance. Just being stronger is not enough for having layer hax.

Heaven is the concept of Dao, so the attacks from Dao may not necessarily interact with Heaven. Just like A is a soul being and B is the concept of A, C can use soul hax on A but cannot touch B because B is inherently more abstract than A.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Heaven is the concept of Dao, so the attacks from Dao may not necessarily interact with Heaven. Just like A is a soul being and B is the concept of A, C can use soul hax on A but cannot touch B because B is inherently more abstract than A.

Still doesn't grant layering. You need to check Hax page, and see the part about Layering.

 

[NousGalia]

Still doesn't grant layering. You need to check Hax page, and see the part about Layering.

I understand your point, but I didn't ask about the hax layer. I asked about the AE1 layer.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I understand your point, but I didn't ask about the hax layer. I asked about the AE1 layer.

AE1 doesn't have a layer, as far as I'm concern (because it doesn't make any sense for a defensive ability to have a layer).

 

[NousGalia]

AE1 doesn't have a layer

In VSBW, there is the term AE1 layer abstraction, which I have seen several upgrade articles about, so I asked.

 

[NousGalia]

AE1 doesn't have a layer

In VSBW, there is the term AE1 layer abstraction, which I have seen several upgrade articles about, so I asked.