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No Game No Life: Speed Revision

Senadina

She/Her
Messages
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479
Right now, Jibril already has Infinite speed, and that’s because she can move through space at a speed literally described as equivalent to “infinite speed” in the light novel. This movement is called Spatial Shift, or just Shift for short. It’s a form of movement from one point to another at infinite speed. But even with that, she still can’t pass through isolated or blocked spaces, so it’s not really a teleportation:
──Spatial Shift.
It twists space and connects coordinates—a movement equivalent to infinite speed.
However, it is still, in essence, a form of movement—

“──────heh-pi!?”

And if there happens to be an obstacle in the way during that movement... this is what happens.

In an accident completely at odds with her foolish-sounding cry, Jibril, moving at a speed equivalent to infinite, crashed into "something" in the void, and with a thunderous boom, ended up splayed midair like a frog.


Then, in the Gaiden volume or Practical War Game, even with that kind of movement, Jibril still gets outsped by a Dragonia. Because the Dragonias don’t just move through space, but they move through time as well and completely leaving everything else behind. Once she realized how Dragonia move, Jibril developed to move through time, thus called Spatial-Temporal Shift.
She first showed this movement during her fight with Azril. Rafil, one of the Flügel watching the battle actually saw two Jibrils appear at once, not a self-division and not a doppelgänger as well, but basically the result of her time-shift, where different versions of her from different points in time showed up at the same time but in different places:
The sealed space Azril constructed—a perfectly closed room—was something even Jibril’s power could not break through.

Originally, that single strike from Azril should have been, without question, a decisive blow.

──However, Rafil, who had been watching from a distance, definitely saw it.
Perhaps for just a single second—or even less—but Jibril had unmistakably...
At the very moment she was trapped by Azril, her face painted in shock—far, far beyond that scene...
──Jibril was in two places at the same time. Without a doubt, Rafil saw it with her own eyes.

Thus, she had never once worried about Jibril—but...what exactly had she done?

Self-division? ──No. That wouldn’t explain how she escaped from Azril’s sealed space.

Which left only one possibility, by process of elimination. Therefore, she could guess what was done.

But how it was done—was entirely beyond her comprehension. In other words──

“...‘Spatial-Temporal Shift’... should be impossible for a Flügel, and yet—well now?”


And when she fought Dragonia again, she dodged Dragonia’s attacks by moving a fraction of a second forward in time:
“Oh... Splendid. Truly splendid. O little wing—light itself.”

Two decisive attacks were unleashed—Dragonian language and a single sweep of the dragon's tail.
Yet Jibril, completely unharmed, calmly caught them with one hand—then smiled gracefully at the white dragon.

“I’m honored by your praise—but once you grasp the trick, it’s nothing more than a simple parlor trick.”

Indeed, the Dragonian language attack, just as Rafil had guessed, was avoided via a Spatial-Temporal Shift—specifically, a shift forward by just a fraction of a second.


When she does this, space around her freezes in time, which gives her a huge edge since her opponent’s attacks basically become frozen from her perspective:
Then, when the dragon tail followed, she used a space frozen in time as a shield to completely block it.

At this sight, the dragon’s enormous body trembled as it laughed.


So, to put it simply:

  • Jibril has Infinite speed via Spatial Shift (a movement through space at infinite speed).
  • Then she upgrades herself to move through both space and time, called Spatial-Temporal Shift.
  • Different versions of her from different points in time exist simultaneously.
  • She can move forward in time to dodge attacks.
  • And from her perspective, everything else is frozen.

With all this, her speed should be Immeasurable now.

This upgrade also scales to other characters in the verse, especially higher-rank races like the Old Deus (Artosh, Holou, Tet, Star Grail) and the Dragonia (Like, Liechengerte).

Agree: RitsuØ1, LiewtiStar, Dark_Soul20189, Enter_Bluey

Disagree: -

Neutral: -
 
Last edited:
Agree
Btw would it be the same for all Flugels with Shift ?
Space shifting? Yeah sure. Time shifting? Don't think so.
Rafil said that all the Flugels, except Jibril, cant do that because they see time differently from space, so they can only shift through space. Jibril can move through time because she's fought the Dragonia multiple times, they move casually through space-time, so she’s come to understand their nature. So I think that is exclusive to Jibril, or maybe to characters even faster than her.
 
Space shifting? Yeah sure. Time shifting? Don't think so.
Rafil said that all the Flugels, except Jibril, cant do that because they see time differently from space, so they can only shift through space. Jibril can move through time because she's fought the Dragonia multiple times, they move casually through space-time, so she’s come to understand their nature. So I think that is exclusive to Jibril, or maybe to characters even faster than her.
Makes sense
 
I don't see a problem with it.

The speed page says "They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right."

But it also doesn't define a tier between 'infinite' and 'immeasurable', and the base description just describes anything unbound by linear time... so that's bit of a contradiction I probably need to bring up about the page itself later.

For all intents and purposes for now, though, I would indeed call this immeasurable speed.
 
This should probably be limited, as this quote says it works because the Dragonia's spacetime waves make it easier to do. I.e. she can probably not do it without one present?

Wny would this scale to Old Deus? Dragonia I see, it's their special racial feature. But why the gods?
 
This should probably be limited, as this quote says it works because the Dragonia's spacetime waves make it easier to do. I.e. she can probably not do it without one present?

Wny would this scale to Old Deus? Dragonia I see, it's their special racial feature. But why the gods?
Well "limited" probably doesn't make sense for a speed rating.

Wouldn't it be more like:
"Infinite, Immeasurable with spacetime waves"?
 
she can probably not do it without one present
Shes able to do it even without any space-time waves or Dragonia, as demonstrated when she fought Azirl.
Wny would this scale to Old Deus? Dragonia I see, it's their special racial feature. But why the gods?
Old Deus are essentially at the top rank of the hierarchy, so they’re naturally stronger and faster than those in lower ranks. So I think this upgrade applies to them too.
 
Well "limited" probably doesn't make sense for a speed rating.

Wouldn't it be more like:
"Infinite, Immeasurable with spacetime waves"?
As long as it's made clear that she doesn't produce those herself, sure.

Then again, when I think more about this, time manipulation (or perhaps time travel) might be more fitting than a speed stat. Sure Shift is rightfully considered speed, but not sure that should translate to the time part.
Thing is, and correct me if my assumption is wrong here, but I think Jibril probably doesn't have the reactions needed to react to Immeasurable speed attacks? I.e. it isn't combat speed. This would be immeasurable travel speed via a specific technique, which is what we commonly call time travel.

Not sure how that work for the Dragonia in practice. Like, if they have reactions to match.

Shes able to do it even without any space-time waves or Dragonia, as demonstrated when she fought Azirl.
I see, that is fine then.
Old Deus are essentially at the top rank of the hierarchy, so they’re naturally stronger and faster than those in lower ranks. So I think this upgrade applies to them too.
This is a specific technique thing, so I don't think it can simply be powerscaled like that. It's like they also can't use all techniques every other race can.
 
As long as it's made clear that she doesn't produce those herself, sure.

Then again, when I think more about this, time manipulation (or perhaps time travel) might be more fitting than a speed stat. Sure Shift is rightfully considered speed, but not sure that should translate to the time part.
Thing is, and correct me if my assumption is wrong here, but I think Jibril probably doesn't have the reactions needed to react to Immeasurable speed attacks? I.e. it isn't combat speed. This would be immeasurable travel speed via a specific technique, which is what we commonly call time travel.
I was thinking about this too, but in my mind Time Travel is when it comes from hax and Immeasurable Speed is when it comes from speed.
It's ultimately a very semantic difference, I think all three of these things have a lot of overlap, and for our purposes any of them are probably fine for understanding the ability.

We can certainly try to narrow it down though.

The speed page does mention how Infinite Speed characters should be frozen to Immeasurable Speed characters similar to how finite speed characters are to them.

@Senadina Do we see that happen? There seems to be a lot of Infinite Speed characters in the verse, so I'm wondering if there's an example.
 
There seems to be a lot of Infinite Speed characters in the verse, so I'm wondering if there's an example.
The infinite speed characters in the verse were basically upscaled from her as well, so I don't think there's even an example. But there is also an infinite speed feat thats different from hers, but again, its literally just stated as infinite speed (無限速 in the raw).
Or he tried, but it came anyway, leaving behind sound, light, everything. Undeniable—infinite in speed—it transcended space and arrived with a shock wave that flattened the surroundings. It was a direct hit, right in his mech’s chest, knocking him hundreds of meters—
 
Then again, when I think more about this, time manipulation (or perhaps time travel) might be more fitting than a speed stat. Sure Shift is rightfully considered speed, but not sure that should translate to the time part.
Thing is, and correct me if my assumption is wrong here, but I think Jibril probably doesn't have the reactions needed to react to Immeasurable speed attacks? I.e. it isn't combat speed. This would be immeasurable travel speed via a specific technique, which is what we commonly call time travel.

Not sure how that work for the Dragonia in practice. Like, if they have reactions to match.
Isn't time travel and travel speed 2 different things? :unsure:
The speed page does mention how Infinite Speed characters should be frozen to Immeasurable Speed characters similar to how finite speed characters are to them.

Do we see that happen? There seems to be a lot of Infinite Speed characters in the verse, so I'm wondering if there's an example.
When using Spatial-Temporal Shift, she sees movements as frozen in time
Then, when the dragon tail followed, she used a space frozen in time as a shield to completely block it.

At this sight, the dragon’s enormous body trembled as it laughed.
 
so, even tho the rest of the races are their creations?
Creating a species doesn't mean you have all their abilities, no.

I was thinking about this too, but in my mind Time Travel is when it comes from hax and Immeasurable Speed is when it comes from speed.
It's ultimately a very semantic difference, I think all three of these things have a lot of overlap, and for our purposes any of them are probably fine for understanding the ability.

We can certainly try to narrow it down though.

The speed page does mention how Infinite Speed characters should be frozen to Immeasurable Speed characters similar to how finite speed characters are to them.

@Senadina Do we see that happen? There seems to be a lot of Infinite Speed characters in the verse, so I'm wondering if there's an example.
IMO the more relevant question is whether she and the Dragonia have immeasurable reaction speed in that state. If yes, they they are in a state of essentially being a speed boost, if no, then it's more like a warping technique and hence more like time travel IMO.

Isn't time travel and travel speed 2 different things? :unsure:
Usually yes, but at the Immeasurable scale? I think they are pretty much the same.
Like, both involve moving through time and not having the reactions to fight an opponent that effectively employs the same strategy.
The only slight difference is that immeasurable travel speed has the connotation of being done by speed alone, while time travel is more for using a special technique, magic or technology to do it.
In practice I can't think of a case where we don't list it time travel, though.
When using Spatial-Temporal Shift, she sees movements as frozen in time
Why do you think that quote refers to her using the Spatial-Temporal Shift to make herself faster, instead of being her freezing an area of space in time?
 
Isn't time travel and travel speed 2 different things? :unsure:

When using Spatial-Temporal Shift, she sees movements as frozen in time
This quote says "she used a space frozen in time as a shield to completely block it."
I mean I'm honestly not sure how to interpret that, but it's definitely not her moving too fast.

In fact, it kind of makes me lean more towards Time Manipulation, if she's freezing other areas in time.

Also, for the sake of my question, she needs to effectively freeze a character with infinite speed via being faster such that they are frozen from their perspective, not freezing a space in time.
IMO the more relevant question is whether she and the Dragonia have immeasurable reaction speed in that state. If yes, they they are in a state of essentially being a speed boost, if no, then it's more like a warping technique and hence more like time travel IMO.
I think that's a reasonable way to look at it.

Though for the reason above, I'm sort of leaning towards it being Time manipulation actually.
I suppose it could be both.
 
Creating a species doesn't mean you have all their abilities, no.
Maybe they could at least get a "comparable to"? since it leaves room for them not being that much weaker than her. Plus, there's Artosh, the god who created Jibril, he did take down the strongest Dragonia, so perhaps that could help justify the speed scaling for the gods.
 
Well, she basically dodged two attacks. First was the Dragonic language, which can command nature and is pretty much unavoidable since Jibril wouldve been hit with that law-based attack. Second was the dragon’s tail.

She avoided the first one by shifting through time to a point after the dragon already said the law. As for the second, it got blocked by space. I’m not really sure how to explain that part, though, since Jibril can’t do time manipulation. So I’m kinda unsure if that frozen space thing was actually her doing.
 
IMO the more relevant question is whether she and the Dragonia have immeasurable reaction speed in that state. If yes, they they are in a state of essentially being a speed boost, if no, then it's more like a warping technique and hence more like time travel IMO.
They don't have immeasurable attack/reaction speed. They only use Spatial-Temporal Shift in order to dodge attacks, but my problem is that they are still doing it by moving themselves through space-time. Looks like a mix of Time Travel and immeasurable travel speed imo.
Why do you think that quote refers to her using the Spatial-Temporal Shift to make herself faster, instead of being her freezing an area of space in time?
Well Jibril (and Flügels in general) never had the ability to manipulate space nor time like that so it's kinda weird.
 
Maybe they could at least get a "comparable to"? since it leaves room for them not being that much weaker than her. Plus, there's Artosh, the god who created Jibril, he did take down the strongest Dragonia, so perhaps that could help justify the speed scaling for the gods.
I wouldn't really support that approach. It seems to speculative.
Well, she basically dodged two attacks. First was the Dragonic language, which can command nature and is pretty much unavoidable since Jibril wouldve been hit with that law-based attack. Second was the dragon’s tail.

She avoided the first one by shifting through time to a point after the dragon already said the law. As for the second, it got blocked by space. I’m not really sure how to explain that part, though, since Jibril can’t do time manipulation. So I’m kinda unsure if that frozen space thing was actually her doing.
Since those attacks, in my understanding, don't have the property of hitting prior to being made, I don't think that would solve the issue.
They don't have immeasurable attack/reaction speed. They only use Spatial-Temporal Shift in order to dodge attacks, but my problem is that they are still doing it by moving themselves through space-time. Looks like a mix of Time Travel and immeasurable travel speed imo.
Meh, like, a time machine also frequently moves through spacetime. It doesn't have to teleport through it. (In fact, the time machine of the 1960 classic "The Time Machine" is an excellent example)
Well Jibril (and Flügels in general) never had the ability to manipulate space nor time like that so it's kinda weird.
It's probably that Jibril figured it out when she understood the nature of the Dragonia to the point where she could also use the spacetime shift.


Overall I'm ok with FinePoint's assessment of this being listed as time manipulation. Of course with an appropriately detailed explanation of how she can dodge attacks via time shifts and freeze space.
 
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