Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Arkenis]

Should we get UES on board first?
because from what I'm seeing, we might not have enough feats for the mid tiers to scale to

Then they don't scale. Not everyone's gotta scale if they lack the feats.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Ryu's the only sorcerer capable of unleashing the same power with or without a technique

"Same amount" of power
How does that affect it from being a UES tho?
It can be on the same level and still not have the same amount of power

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Isn't this the criteria for UES;

In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System. Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics

I don't see anything stating amount of energy needed to power supernatural ability and that to power physical statistics must be exact
Only thing I'm seeing is that they should scale linearly

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Then they don't scale. Not everyone's gotta scale if they lack the feats.

Okay then seems the Naoya feat would be enough then

 

[Da3ggman]

This isn't used anymore. It's become h7c now.

I know, but it’s still potential support if we get it used again. I mean, we’re just compiling feats right now, right? Can’t hurt to spit ball things.

 

[Duedate8898]

So kenjaku survives a black hole, Gojo's earthquake and apparently another mystery feat for scaling top tiers to mountain according to duedate



https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NnY7KFtkVvr74nxK3NlXBdxEfzf-Jp1xGRcI5aL0Vgs/edit?tab=t.0 can someone recalc this because I looked at yuta's jjk0 profile and turns out we do use the movie lol

I have said nothing about there being a mystery feat scaling top tiers to mountain level. I said if there were two or three feats it could offer a solid basis for scaling top tiers to 7-A

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Isn't this the criteria for UES;

I don't see anything stating amount of energy needed to power supernatural ability and that to power physical statistics must be exact
Only thing I'm seeing is that they should scale linearly

Universal Energy Systems

Universal Energy Systems are a fairly common element in fictional stories possessed by certain characters to display incredible feats and powers, often being born out of fantastical or otherwise otherworldly elements such as Magic, Chakra, Chi and a myriad of other possible energy systems. Often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Duedate8898]

Should we get UES on board first?
because from what I'm seeing, we might not have enough feats for the mid tiers to scale to

I guess I should get around to remaking that CRT.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Universal Energy Systems

Universal Energy Systems are a fairly common element in fictional stories possessed by certain characters to display incredible feats and powers, often being born out of fantastical or otherwise otherworldly elements such as Magic, Chakra, Chi and a myriad of other possible energy systems. Often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Still not seeing anything mentioning they should be the same or exact only similar
Don't see why Ryu statement is seen as an Anti-feat

 

[Arkenis]

Right now feats we have that are recognized as 7-A is the Kenjaku feat. Whether the earthquake feat 7-A version gets accepted is not decided yet and the game feat isn't likely to be used but if so good.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Right now feats we have that are recognized as 7-A is the Kenjaku feat. Whether the earthquake feat 7-A version gets accepted is not decided yet and the game feat isn't likely to be used but if so good.

I should probably ask some calc members to review it

 

[Electronic74947]

I have said nothing about there being a mystery feat scaling top tiers to mountain level. I said if there were two or three feats it could offer a solid basis for scaling top tiers to 7-A

You said there were 2 or 3 other feats than the gojo earthquake. Maybe I misunderstood

 

[Shey]

Why does Gojo have Class G LS

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Still not seeing anything mentioning they should be the same or exact only similar
Don't see why Ryu statement is seen as an Anti-feat

Ryu being highlighted for this if all other sorcerers are basically the same with only a slight difference would be quite arbitrary. Not to mention that the bigger problem is just consistent portrayal of CTs being stronger than physicals and there being no real proof that they're interchangeable most of the time.

 

[Arkenis]

Why does Gojo have Class G LS

Just outdated. But don't worry, Laser's cooking up some LS feats which will solidify Class M more

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Why does Gojo have Class G LS

What's up Shey
He gets it via scaling from Jogoat LS

 

[Arkenis]

He gets it via scaling from Jogoat LS

No, Class G originally came from Blue, Jogo's only Class G via the Meteor.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Ryu being highlighted for this if all other sorcerers are basically the same with only a slight difference would be quite arbitrary. Not to mention that the bigger problem is just consistent portrayal of CTs being stronger than physicals and there being no real proof that they're interchangeable most of the time.

Similar and same are two different words
We see CT do have similar interaction as physical strikes
Maximums, shikigamis and Domain expansions are obviously excluded
And from the top of my head
1. Sukuna dismantle and physicals having the same effect on Yuji
2. Yuta dealing similar damage with or without a cursed technique
3. Gojo and his blue punches
Along with the fact that an increase in energy also means and increase in both physical and CT output (sukuna case)
It would qualify as an UES, Ryu statement doesn't affect it

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

No, Class G originally came from Blue, Jogo's only Class G via the Meteor.

Do gojo and sukuna scale to the meteor lifting or it's separate like telekinesis?

 

[Arkenis]

Do gojo and sukuna scale to the meteor lifting or it's separate like telekinesis?

separate

 

[Duedate8898]

Similar and same are two different words
We see CT do have similar interaction as physical strikes
Maximums, shikigamis and Domain expansions are obviously excluded
And from the top of my head
1. Sukuna dismantle and physicals having the same effect on Yuji
2. Yuta dealing similar damage with or without a cursed technique
3. Gojo and his blue punches
Along with the fact that an increase in energy also means and increase in both physical and CT output (sukuna case)
It would qualify as an UES, Ryu statement doesn't affect it

You're just quoting my CRT at this point

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Similar and same are two different words
We see CT do have similar interaction as physical strikes
Maximums, shikigamis and Domain expansions are obviously excluded
And from the top of my head
1. Sukuna dismantle and physicals having the same effect on Yuji

Dismantles draw blood, punches just hurt him

2. Yuta dealing similar damage with or without a cursed technique

On a very low end level

3. Gojo and his blue punches

? That's his CT being infused into his physicals, so that doesn't support UES

Along with the fact that an increase in energy also means and increase in both physical and CT output (sukuna case)
It would qualify as an UES, Ryu statement doesn't affect it

That doesn't mean they're gonna increase to a similar level

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

You're just quoting my CRT at this point

I learnt from my mentor
But seriously that CRT was good don't know why it was still rejected

 

[Duedate8898]

That doesn't mean they're gonna increase to a similar level

Except the series consistently displays that they clearly do. How Sukuna did choso is a great example of this. Dismantle upclose, and cleave are described as fatal and displayed as such by Sukuna before Yuji lowers his output. He also donuts choso. When Sukuna's output is lowered later on, he's no longer donuting people and his cleaves and dismantles are being endured and fought through without need for RCT. Ino got cleaved and proceeded to keep fighting for one.

Or if there wasn't anything relative between CT and Physical output, then Sukuna wouldn't have to dodge Gojo's attacks when Gojo is in CT burnout and unable to use Blue or Red.

I learnt from my mentor
But seriously that CRT was good don't know why it was still rejected

It wasn't ever rejected is the thing. Only really damage voted against it, but that's to be expected, he's conservative like that in terms of CRT generally.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Except the series consistently displays that they clearly do. How Sukuna did choso is a great example of this. Dismantle upclose, and cleave are described as fatal and displayed as such by Sukuna before Yuji lowers his output. He also donuts choso.

Cleave being noted as fatal when Yuji and Yuta can take Dismantles just fine is actually an example that goes against the idea of a UES

When Sukuna's output is lowered later on, he's no longer donuting people and his cleaves and dismantles are being endured and fought through without need for RCT. Ino got cleaved and proceeded to keep fighting for one.

Yeah his output lowering nerfs everything? I never disagreed with that. I'm not saying there's not a correlation, I'm saying that they're not gonna be relative however they get nerfed/boosted. Let's say Sukuna's punches have 10 power and his Cleaves have 30 power. If his output gets doubled, his punches will shoot to 20 and his Cleaves will shoot to 60, and if it gets halved, his punches will go to 5 and his Cleaves to 15. They can be proportional without being similar.

Or if there wasn't anything relative between CT and Physical output, then Sukuna wouldn't have to dodge Gojo's attacks when Gojo is in CT burnout and unable to use Blue or Red.

I'm fine with there not being a massive difference in some cases (though there is a huge difference between Base Gojo and his Reds, which consistently burns Sukuna's face), I'm just saying that physicals scaling to CTs can't be considered a blanket rule. It should be a on a case by case basis seeing how physical feats compare to CT feats with specific characters.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Dismantles draw blood, punches just hurt him

Punches also drew blood

On a very low end level

What do you mean by low-end? both drew blood

? That's his CT being infused into his physicals, so that doesn't support UES

I'm talking about when he couldn't use his CT

That doesn't mean they're gonna increase to a similar level

That was the evidence required for UES
There's no point CT are shown as massively superior ability that physical strengthening can't reach

 

[Arkenis]

Cleave being noted as fatal when Yuji and Yuta can take Dismantles just fine is actually an example that goes against the idea of a UES

Not exactly, Cleave has a specific function that makes it fatal. He can match the targets own ce or he can completely destroy them with it, and he can still do this with regular output.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Cleave being noted as fatal when Yuji and Yuta can take Dismantles just fine is actually an example that goes against the idea of a UES

It doesn't because Cleave is an adapting technique that functions by cutting in one swoop based on output and toughness

 

[Duedate8898]

Cleave being noted as fatal when Yuji and Yuta can take Dismantles just fine is actually an example that goes against the idea of a UES

Minato, you read the series. Please, Kusakabe states an upclose dismantle and cleave were fatal. Because dismantle loses output as it travels. But both at the same distant are supposed to be fatal. And Yuji and Yuta don't take Dismantle's just fine, they're both forced to heal them after getting struck, just like how Yuji had to heal after every time he got hit with cleave. We are then shown Yuta tanking a cleave after Sukuna get his output lowered further and not healing through it, displaying that it wasn't fatal.

Please reread shinjuku and Yuta vs Ryu. Both of those display so well how CT output and just normal output are definitely relative throughout the series.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Punches also drew blood

Can you give examples

What do you mean by low-end? both drew blood

Cause CTs do more damage

I'm talking about when he couldn't use his CT

He didn't do any damage to Sukuna really

That was the evidence required for UES
There's no point CT are shown as massively superior ability that physical strengthening can't reach

Love Beam, Thin Ice Breaker, Piercing Blood, MBA, Insect Armor, Red, all of Jogo's lava stuff (given that his physicals are below Hanami's), Ratio Strike, etc.

It doesn't because Cleave is an adapting technique that functions by cutting in one swoop based on output and toughness

The fact that it can adapt to a level beyond what his punches can do is telling of what I'm saying by itself

Minato, you read the series. Please, Kusakabe states an upclose dismantle and cleave were fatal. Because dismantle loses output as it travels. But both at the same distant are supposed to be fatal.

Ryu takes a point blank Dismantle despite being one shot by Cleave, with Sukuna confirming that it's not a matter of holding back, but Dismantle simply not having enough power to one shot Ryu

And Yuji and Yuta don't take Dismantle's just fine, they're both forced to heal them after getting struck, just like how Yuji had to heal after every time he got hit with cleave.

Obviously it still damages them, I'm saying it's not fatal despite them taking many Dismantles in a row

We are then shown Yuta tanking a cleave after Sukuna get his output lowered further and not healing through it, displaying that it wasn't fatal.

The key reason being that his output lowered further. If Sukuna earlier in the fight had landed that Cleave, it would've done the same thing it did to Ryu.

Please reread shinjuku and Yuta vs Ryu. Both of those display so well how CT output and just normal output are definitely relative throughout the series.

I'm fine with there not being a massive difference in some cases (though there is a huge difference between Base Gojo and his Reds, which consistently burns Sukuna's face), I'm just saying that physicals scaling to CTs can't be considered a blanket rule. It should be a on a case by case basis seeing how physical feats compare to CT feats with specific characters.

 

[Duedate8898]

And I'm saying that taking it on a case by case basis makes no sense when its already established that it is a mechanic of the wider verse how much energy you can put into a CT or generally attack.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not like sorcerers can just put as much CE as they want into anything, there's a maximum output for all their different attacks, and while in many cases the output limit for CTs may not be too dissimilar to that of their physicals, there are enough examples where it is for a UES to be an oversimplification.

 

[Duedate8898]

What examples? Please give the examples that state sorcerer's are restricted in how much energy they can put into their techinques. Because if you can provide them, you can save me a whole lot of trouble in making a CRT.

Because we have multiple scans of the opposite of what you're saying. You can go check out the CRT I made for it yourself if you so wish.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

What examples? Please give the examples that state sorcerer's are restricted in how much energy they can put into their techinques. Because if you can provide them, you can save me a whole lot of trouble in making a CRT.

The very fact that "maximum output" versions of techniques exist demonstrate that

Because we have multiple scans of the opposite of what you're saying. You can go check out the CRT I made for it yourself if you so wish.

Can you link it?

 

[Arkenis]

Its arguable sorcerers have an easier time with output in their ct than physicals. There's also the one time out of the whole series but likely common where Todo focused all his ce to reduce damage from Mahito.

Please give the examples that state sorcerer's are restricted in how much energy they can put into their techinques.

Wouldn't maximum outputs be the very example? I guess it could just be a skill thing.

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

Can you give examples

Here

Cause CTs do more damage

But not vastly more damage
Which is why they're similar

He didn't do any damage to Sukuna really

Because Sukuna felt the need to dodge his attacks
The implication is there

Love Beam, Thin Ice Breaker, Piercing Blood, MBA, Insect Armor, Red, all of Jogo's lava stuff (given that his physicals are below Hanami's), Ratio Strike, etc.

1. Jjk0 lovebeam was created via a binding vow that explicitly releases more energy, plus that's not a technique
And Sendai love beam is below granite blast which Yuta can palm and overpower, that isn't evidence

2. Thin Ice breaker break space so there's nothing to tank or block hence an outlier, plus Rika punches and thin Ice breaker deals the same damage and Yuta can still draw blood from Ryu

3. Piercing blood is a continuous technique that depends on physical reinforcement and compression to its limit, so it's CT + Reinforcement plus choso damaged Yuji without it

4. Don't know how big armour gives a far superior attack power

5. Gojo uses blue for his punches so there's no conclusive evidence that it is massively above his physical stats

6. It's specifically his dura that's below Hanami and both of them are equal in strength (Jogo only edges out due to elemental matchup)

7. No counter to ratio

The fact that it can adapt to a level beyond what his punches can do is telling of what I'm saying by itself

No because that's the function of the technique
It's like you bringing mahoraga technique as a counter to UES
It's Hax

 

[OjeTheArcher15]

No one is scaling Maximum output to normal outputs tho

 

[BahamutQ0]

I don't at all believe that Yuta can replicate the domain feat outside of Gojo's body. As he doesn't know how to do this until he's in Gojo's body, and he has all the help possible from the Six Eyes. I think it's extremely unlikely that he can replicate this without Gojo's body as the weird barrier stuff is touted as something insane to do with a domain. Stepping away from how I don't believe Yuta wouldn't even clash with Kenjaku for any decent time, the means you offer for Yuta to easily negate Kenjaku's domain aren't really sensible..

He can. That's why he contributes the fact he can do this barrier technique to his own skill with barrier techniques in the first place. Nothing else.

I'm also going to have to ask—where does Yuta, or really anyone else, say he couldn’t perform the compressed barrier technique until he got into Gojo’s body, or that he needed the 6E?

The truly impressive thing is Yuta’s ability to completely exclude already designated targets from his sure-hit. This is just a bonus he's capable of, since the technique itself is relatively easy to replicate for someone at his level of proficiency in barrier techniques—proficiency that Sukuna considered to be very sophisticated.

I don't see what isn't sensible here exactly.

Cursed Speech, especially against someone as knowledgable as Kenjaku is not the most effective tool, especially as Yuta has little ability to distract or surprise Kenjaku with it since he doesn't have the likes of Rika to properly run interference as he normally does and Kenjaku knows he has it. The main strength he has with Cursed Speech is that he often uses it when his enemy wouldn't know or think to protect against it. Hence the only times he lands it are when his opponent is distracted or unaware that he posses CS.

For that reason, I specifically mentioned Cursed Speech would be used for the sole purpose of dealing with Kenjaku's arsenal of cursed spirits and CTs.

Extinguishment also wouldn't really be useful since he wouldn't be able to use it directly target the domain in the first place, as Kenjaku's is an open domain. While its unlikely Kenjaku would know Yuta to possess it, if Yuta does attempt to use it outside the domain, Kenjaku does have a naturally counter to it in Domain Amplification. And inside his domain, if its the sure-hit it is a non-factor, if its not then much like I said with Yuki since Yuta's output isn't something far and above the likes of Kenjaku and is on short burst I don't think he can use it effectively to ensure a victory most of the time.

It doesn’t really matter whether the domain is enclosed or not, since TE nullifies anything CE related (Scan)—which both DES and DA are just by-products of. Even the slightest bit of light from TE can cause its nullification.

After fully manifesting Rika, Yuta's output likely more than doubled, allowing him to clash with Ryu in a contest of raw output—one he lost because his blast was only slightly inferior compared to Ryu's. So, even if Domain Amplification had been an option, Kenjaku would still have been heavily affected. Would be even worse for Kenjaku inside a domain.

No it doesn't. The statement wasn't that Yuta was the second strongest sorcerer period. Just second in regards to his strange abilities. Especially given the performance that Yuta gives after this statetment doesn't really support him being uncontested or overwhelming powerful. Yuta nearly died fighting Kurosushi, was overpowered multiple times by Ryu, and even jumping Uro wasn't able to secure a kill on her. The narrative of JJK establishes that if Yuta truly is second, it is only by the skin of his teeth.

The unusual abilities refers specifically to Jujutsu, so within that context, Yuta, as a Jujutsu sorcerer is in fact second only to Gojo. Lightning has brought this up multiple times (1, 2, 3, 4), and in each case, the same consensus has been drawn—that it's referring to strength.

Yuta fought Kurourushi while massively holding back—no Rika, no RCT, and certainly not fully reinforcing himself. In Chapter 173, Yuta speed-blitzed and one-shot Dhruv, a combatant on par with other players in the colony and someone Kurourushi was at a disadvantage against.

Ryu has the highest output among all the players—his striking power might as well be second only to Yuki’s. So this isn’t even an anti-feat to begin with. Additionally, in Chapter 180, once Yuta is no longer caught off-guard by Ryu’s output, he literally outpaces a bloodlusted Ryu in combat and doesn’t even budge from his punches.

Yuta never intended to kill Ryu and Uro. He was constantly mentally conflicted, feeling compassion for them multiple times over in their battle while knowing very well it could've cost him the battle. He believed they could be reasoned with.

 

[AThe1412]

Where is Blue?

Why does Past Gojo have Red and Purple listed as 8-A but not Blue? He was comparable to Geto even before his awakening so why doesn't he have Blue listed as part of his AP?

vsbattles.com

Mind if I interrupt the discussion you're having with a question?

 

[Duedate8898]

Its arguable sorcerers have an easier time with output in their ct than physicals. There's also the one time out of the whole series but likely common where Todo focused all his ce to reduce damage from Mahito.

Wouldn't maximum outputs be the very example? I guess it could just be a skill thing.

Both Yuji and Todo in their fight Mahito demonstrate that they can pour all of their Cursed Energy into Reinforcing themselves or empowering their attacks.

And Maximum Output is just the max amount anyone can put into fueling their own techinque. That doesn't mean that they can't change the amount they fueld techinques.

As Sukuna, Choso, Yorozu, and Hana display, not only can different amounts of CE be put into a CT but the max amount can change depending on a multitude of factors.

I'm assuming neither of you checked out the CRT in that case as well