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BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

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They'll be about my current disagreements with the feat being 4-A to begin with.

As for the questions themselves, I want to formulate them better before I start asking them. They'll essentially be about why the stars we see are actual stars, with the same energy requirements as an actual star. And a more Metaphysical question about Gremmy's Imagination not necessarily being equivalent with Reality.
Then you might as well question the genuinety behind all of his creations. This is just pointless nitpicking in an attempt to invalidate the feat.Might as well just say that the "outer space" he created isn't really outer space either, it just has the same name and properties despite him having imagined it.I also don't expect gremmy to know the blueprints of rockets, guns, outerspace, stars, planets etc basically everything he imagined.Your core argument and questions are basically whether what he imagined, actually has the properties of their "real" counterpart which has been proven in literally every instance of his ability being used.The burden of proof would be on you to prove that these stars he created are not relative to their real counterpart. As even the vacuum of space, which Gremmy imagined also had the exact same properties as space does in reality, it's way more illogical to assume and nitpick that the stars are not the same.
 
Then you might as well question the genuinety behind all of his creations. This is just pointless nitpicking in an attempt to invalidate the feat.Might as well just say that the "outer space" he created isn't really outer space either, it just has the same name and properties despite him having imagined it.I also don't expect gremmy to know the blueprints of rockets, guns, outerspace, stars, planets etc basically everything he imagined.Your core argument and questions are basically whether what he imagined, actually has the properties of their "real" counterpart which has been proven in literally every instance of his ability being used.The burden of proof would be on you to prove that these stars he created are not relative to their real counterpart. As even the vacuum of space, which Gremmy imagined also had the exact same properties as space does in reality, it's way more illogical to assume and nitpick that the stars are not the same.
Yes, it is very strange. Initially, he commented saying his main issue was the outlier argument. Since it was a hot topic, I made a detailed post explaining why it is not an outlier, and so far, no one has addressed it.

Now, after many days of discussion, he has returned with this new argument. I understand his desire to consult other experts, but the debate is happening here.

So once again, I am willing to debate this topic here, so everyone can see and judge. Let’s properly discuss whether the stars are real and provide evidence for our claims. Bare assertions should not count in a judged CRT.

The Reality of Gremmy’s Creations​


Gremmy has the ability to bring into reality whatever he imagines, his creations are real and factual.

He has created a variety of things, all of which function exactly on par with or even better than their real-world counterparts. Even ignoring their greater potency, their functionality at core is identical to the real thing.
This is where Kubo’s genius shines. He meticulously included details such as:
So, Unless Gremmy is secretly a mechanical engineer and scientist as well, the only explanation is that The Visionary creates objects following their real life counterpart structure.

Why, all of a sudden, would outer space be the exception?​

If Kubo took the time, to show that even a missile had its proper internal mechanics or the metero had an ablation effect, then why wouldn’t outer space—which was created with visible stars as details—be real as well?

Why would Narita, the novel author, even highlight that Gremmy was amazing because he could even create outer space if this was just not a real thing?

Outer space is an incredibly complex concept, and in our universe, everything exists and functions for a reason, it was created in a specific way.

  • Stars drive away gas and particles through intense radiation and stellar winds, originating from the process of the universe's formation, which was initially filled with gas. This also prevents an atmosphere from forming in open space. Even gravity would behave differently under these conditions, it is all linked.
So if Gremmy decided to create an outer space with stars, then it exists as such with it's details and properties. If he had wanted, he could have created something entirely different instead.

The Burden of Proof​

So once again, I am asking for evidence, just as I did in the outlier discussion.

If anyone claims that Gremmy’s outer space and stars don't follow real life counter part structure, they need to provide evidences to support that assertion, proving why they don't follow real life counter part structure.
 
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didn't gremmy already imagine zaraki's death? isn't this just a fictional death rather than a real one?
 
Not that I’m saying people should settle nor am I saying people need to compromise. However, this thread seems to be very evenly split more or less. Which is to say both sides have made good points here and there. Has anyone considered compromising on the rating in a manner like this?

High 6-A, up to 5-C, likely 4-A with the Visionary (capable of harming eyepatch Shikai Zaraki [this is where the 5-C would come from], and created outer space itself [this is where the likely 4-A would come from])

Again, I’m not trying to hastily conclude this thread. I just was hit with the realization that, like most things in power scaling, there are varying degrees of validity in interpretation, and maybe those don’t find this feat strong enough concretely might find a partial rating amenable to capture that reasonable doubt.
 
Can't believe people fail to understand such simple words.
Turns fantasy into reality.
He fantasizes zaraki's death, it becomes reality.

Unreal things in his thoughts becomes reality, happens, comes to be, existence however you wanna interpret it.
 
Not that I’m saying people should settle nor am I saying people need to compromise. However, this thread seems to be very evenly split more or less. Which is to say both sides have made good points here and there. Has anyone considered compromising on the rating in a manner like this?

High 6-A, up to 5-C, likely 4-A with the Visionary (capable of harming eyepatch Shikai Zaraki [this is where the 5-C would come from], and created outer space itself [this is where the likely 4-A would come from])

Again, I’m not trying to hastily conclude this thread. I just was hit with the realization that, like most things in power scaling, there are varying degrees of validity in interpretation, and maybe those don’t find this feat strong enough concretely might find a partial rating amenable to capture that reasonable doubt.
My input may not change much, but I disagree with this. The OP has done an excellent job of providing valid arguments and reasoning, backed by evidence, throughout this CRT. They have successfully debunked every counter brought up by the opposition, with the only remaining argument being a begging-the-question fallacy, even for this, the burden of proof was not on the OP, yet they have still provided arguments and evidence to support their case. This should be outrightly 4A, not likely.
 
My input may not change much, but I disagree with this. The OP has done an excellent job of providing valid arguments and reasoning, backed by evidence, throughout this CRT. They have successfully debunked every counter brought up by the opposition, with the only remaining argument being a begging-the-question fallacy, even for this, the burden of proof was not on the OP, yet they have still provided arguments and evidence to support their case. This should be outrightly 4A, not likely.
Yeah that’s fine. I’m not trying to force people to change their position, merely offering a potential alternative that some people might find more agreeable than going full send in either direction.
 
Can't believe people fail to understand such simple words.
Turns fantasy into reality.
He fantasizes zaraki's death, it becomes reality.

Unreal things in his thoughts becomes reality, happens, comes to be, existence however you wanna interpret it.
can you explain better what you mean? I'm serious
 
So I just got done talking with infinite9luck and he cleared some things up in DMs for me.

That being he only plans on scaling Shikai Zaraki WITHOUT the eyepatch lol. Based on the rationale that Gremmy speaks on having imagined Zaraki’s power in its entirety meaning that he was able to sense the power being consumed and nerfed by the eyepatch.

That, I am fine with. To that effect you can consider me in agreement with the OP, since my big contention of eyepatch ShiKen scaling.
 
So I just got done talking with infinite9luck and he cleared some things up in DMs for me.

That being he only plans on scaling Shikai Zaraki WITHOUT the eyepatch lol. Based on the rationale that Gremmy speaks on having imagined Zaraki’s power in its entirety meaning that he was able to sense the power being consumed and nerfed by the eyepatch.

That, I am fine with. To that effect you can consider me in agreement with the OP, since my big contention of eyepatch ShiKen scaling.
Yes, I would be fine with this line of scaling being applied as well.

I know that other Bleach supporters want the entire scaling to be fixed, but those concerns can be discussed in future threads. For now, this is what my CRT will be updating if it gets approved and passed.
 
Yes, I would be fine with this line of scaling being applied as well.

I know that other Bleach supporters want the entire scaling to be fixed, but those concerns can be discussed in future threads. For now, this is what my CRT will be updating if it gets approved and passed.
So I just got done talking with infinite9luck and he cleared some things up in DMs for me.

That being he only plans on scaling Shikai Zaraki WITHOUT the eyepatch lol. Based on the rationale that Gremmy speaks on having imagined Zaraki’s power in its entirety meaning that he was able to sense the power being consumed and nerfed by the eyepatch.

That, I am fine with. To that effect you can consider me in agreement with the OP, since my big contention of eyepatch ShiKen scaling.
I know I already agreed earlier, but this seems fine to me. The rest of the scaling can be changed later (though, right now, the only scaling that would be changed by this would be stuff from season four of the Thousand Year Blood War anime, so it doesn't affect any of the current scaling).
 
I know I already agreed earlier, but this seems fine to me. The rest of the scaling can be changed later (though, right now, the only scaling that would be changed by this would be stuff from season four of the Thousand Year Blood War anime, so it doesn't affect any of the current scaling).
A lot of scaling would be changed. Giant Gerard goes to 4A for making Kenpachi take off his eyepatch. Byakuya and adult Toshiro go to 4A for out performing said Kenpachi. Yhwach maybe does? The man locked Gremmy away and only brought him out during the second invasion, though you could argue that was a far weaker Gremmy, but was still put into submission by first invasion Yhwach. Going off that Yhwach scales, Yama scales, enraged FB Bankai Ichigo scales for hurting yhwach. It isn’t as simple as Kenpachi vs Gremmy existing in a vacuum, when the only reason that happened was because Yhwach decided to take Gremmy out of his cage
 
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A lot of scaling would be changed. Giant Gerard goes to 4A for making Kenpachi take off his eyepatch. Byakuya and adult Toshiro go to 4A for out performing said Kenpachi. Yhwach maybe does? The man locked Gremmy away and only brought him out during the second invasion, though you could argue that was a far weaker Gremmy, but was still put into submission by first invasion Yhwach. Going off that Yhwach scales, Yama scales, enraged FB Bankai Ichigo scales for hurting Yhwach. It isn’t as simple as Kenpachi vs Yhwach when the only reason that happened was because Yhwach decided to take Gremmy out of his cage
Not really, I have already discussed with @Arc7Kuroi, also Byakuya doesn't even scale according to this wiki profile, so you would need to make a CRT for that. Same as other people you mentioned for now.

Only people who directly scales to the feat via Zaraki will be update, so Gerard and Toshiro.
 
Not really, I have already discussed with @Arc7Kuroi, also Byakuya doesn't even scale according to this wiki profile, so you would need to make a CRT for that. Same as other people you mentioned for now.

Only people who directly scales to the feat via Zaraki will be update, so Gerard and Toshiro.
So Gremmy can go balls to the walls with Kenpachi but is too scared to try that against Yhwach. Good reasons right there. All the more reason first invasion Yhwach scales lol

Also way to rely on wiki scaling. By the same wiki scaling both Yhwach and FB Bankai Ichigo already scale higher then Kenpachi. So naturally they get upscaled as well right?
 
So Gremmy can go balls to the walls with Kenpachi but is too scared to try that against Yhwach. Good reasons right there. All the more reason first invasion Yhwach scales lol
Can you prove that Gremmy had ever multiplied himself to that extent in the past while having the same level of power he displayed? Or that his imagination had ever collapsed before? Gremmy was pushed to that point by Zaraki because he felt challenged as well, and Gremmy himself conceded that it was the first, he ever felt a true desire to win.

On top of this, the clones scaling is not linear anymore.

Also, I never said that what you said can't be true, Yhwach will likely scales as well to the 4A feat, but it needs to be addressed in a CRT. Feel free to make a scaling CRT afterward. For this one, we are only scaling characters that can be directly linked to the feats, as it is the most objective way to handle this. We already agreed with @Arc7Kuroi how to handle the scaling for this thread.

So let's wait a 3rd moderator, to give judgement on this CRT feat.
 
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Can you prove that Gremmy had ever multiplied himself to that extent in the past while having the same level of power he displayed? Or that his imagination had ever collapsed before? Gremmy was pushed to that point by Zaraki because he felt challenged as well, and Gremmy himself conceded that it was the first, he ever felt a true desire to win.

In the anime he even said, this was the first time in his life, he wanted to beat someone, implying he never ever cared before except with Zaraki.

On top of this, the clones scaling is not linear anymore.

Also, I never said that what you said can't be true, but it needs to be addressed in a CRT. Feel free to make a scaling CRT afterward. For this one, we are only scaling characters that can be directly linked to the feats, as it is the most objective way to handle this. We already agreed with @Arc7Kuroi how to handle the scaling for this thread.

So let's wait a 3rd moderator, to give judgement on this CRT feat.
I don’t need to prove Gremmy felt challenged lol. Yhwach straight locked him up in a cage. What’s the better feat? Gremmy feeling like he has a fight against Kenpachi vs being straight shut down by first invasion Yhwach for an unspecified amount of time?

Of course he would care about beating Kenpachi, because that’s someone he thought he could beat with his full capability. Any proof the same applies to Yhwach when he’s the one who shut him down and m locked him away?

Unless you answer this you can’t prove anything Gremmy can do is greater than first invasion Yhwach can do on the basis that Gremmy didn’t even try to fight against Yhwach when he locked him away
 
Of course he would care about beating Kenpachi, because that’s someone he thought he could beat with his full capability. Any proof the same applies to Yhwach when he’s the one who shut him down and m locked him away?
Is there any evidence that he fought against the person who silenced him and locked him in a room? It's also possible that he doesn't complain about this situation and doesn't go against Yhwach. If you ask me, I'd still say Base Yhwach>Gremmy. But I wouldn't necessarily argue that Yhwach fought to seal him in a room.
 
I don’t need to prove Gremmy felt challenged lol. Yhwach straight locked him up in a cage. What’s the better feat? Gremmy feeling like he has a fight against Kenpachi vs being straight shut down by first invasion Yhwach for an unspecified amount of time?

Of course he would care about beating Kenpachi, because that’s someone he thought he could beat with his full capability. Any proof the same applies to Yhwach when he’s the one who shut him down and m locked him away?

Unless you answer this you can’t prove anything Gremmy can do is greater than first invasion Yhwach can do on the basis that Gremmy didn’t even try to fight against Yhwach when he locked him away
This is not the CRT for this.
 
I don’t need to prove Gremmy felt challenged lol. Yhwach straight locked him up in a cage. What’s the better feat? Gremmy feeling like he has a fight against Kenpachi vs being straight shut down by first invasion Yhwach for an unspecified amount of time?

Of course he would care about beating Kenpachi, because that’s someone he thought he could beat with his full capability. Any proof the same applies to Yhwach when he’s the one who shut him down and m locked him away?

Unless you answer this you can’t prove anything Gremmy can do is greater than first invasion Yhwach can do on the basis that Gremmy didn’t even try to fight against Yhwach when he locked him away
What are you trying to prove?
Base Yhwach scales to gremmy and Post Unohana kenpachi yeah, what about it?

It doesn't change anything, nor does it contradict the scaling as the same base Yhwach matched Ichibei in combat, who is at an even higher tier.
But you didn't even bother reading the actual thread.
Read before you type, and stop derailing with useless information that has been addressed in the first 2-4 pages.
 
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Yes, I’m not even against it. Base Yhwach will likely scale as well, but I simply treat it as an indirect feat that will be properly addressed in the next scaling thread.

I think this has been repeated multiple times in this thread for example, Ichibei is Small Planet level. Is Ichibei weaker than Gremmy? Again, this thread is only updating direct scaling.
 
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A lot of scaling would be changed. Giant Gerard goes to 4A for making Kenpachi take off his eyepatch. Byakuya and adult Toshiro go to 4A for out performing said Kenpachi. Yhwach maybe does? The man locked Gremmy away and only brought him out during the second invasion, though you could argue that was a far weaker Gremmy, but was still put into submission by first invasion Yhwach. Going off that Yhwach scales, Yama scales, enraged FB Bankai Ichigo scales for hurting yhwach. It isn’t as simple as Kenpachi vs Gremmy existing in a vacuum, when the only reason that happened was because Yhwach decided to take Gremmy out of his cage
Not byakuya. He didn’t outperform zaraki. He technically tore a frozen gerard. This doesn’t count as ap feat.
 
Yes, I’m not even against it. Base Yhwach will likely scale as well, but I simply treat it as an indirect feat that will be properly addressed in the next scaling thread.

I think this has been repeated multiple times in this thread for example, Ichibei is Small Planet level. Is Ichibei weaker than Gremmy? Again, this thread is only updating direct scaling.
Even fake yhwach (Royd) should scale above gremmy. Don't forget when gremmy made that statement, royd was dead. And his amp is most likely temporary.

Please leave the scaling chain part for @Arc7Kuroi.
If we see some issue with his scaling, we can just discuss it after he make his post.
 
I mean, he didn't imagine a victory that didn't happen? I'm just asking, maybe he seems like a troll
It was a plot thing. He imagined the opposite and it did happen. He imagined other things which did happen.

He literally stated, and demonstrated what his power does. It doesn’t even need explanation from our side.

Well whatever lets you feel good
 
Era una questione di trama. Lui immaginava l'opposto e accadde. Lui immaginava altre cose che accaddero.

Ha letteralmente affermato e dimostrato cosa fa il suo potere. Non ha nemmeno bisogno di spiegazioni da parte nostra.

Bene, qualunque cosa ti faccia sentire bene
?
 
Sorry for the delay if anyone was waiting for my comment. I've been dealing with some issues (nothing serious, just some medical things) that have taken my attention away from this thread. Because of the aforementioned issues, I haven't been able to properly formalize my questions and ask Arc about them. Since I recently addressed these issues and have the desire to communicate about this topic again, I'll hopefully have my response here sometime this week.
 
Sorry for the delay if anyone was waiting for my comment. I've been dealing with some issues (nothing serious, just some medical things) that have taken my attention away from this thread. Because of the aforementioned issues, I haven't been able to properly formalize my questions and ask Arc about them. Since I recently addressed these issues and have the desire to communicate about this topic again, I'll hopefully have my response here sometime this week.
Health first! Take your time.
 
A summary of past arguments can be found here

Further arguments in favor found here, here and here

The counterarguments include the following:

The proposed current scaling as a consequence of this thread can be found here with the main justifications being elaborated here

It should be noted, @Arc7Kuroi does oppose scaling Shikai/Eye-Patch Kenpachi, since it took 8 Gremmy's to do the feat, and the attack he took only included 7.

Taking all this into consideration, I expect your most sincere thoughts here. Thank you for your time.
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