BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

[CloverDragon03]

Breaking my self-imposed rule for a moment because it's clear that using Squad Zero's feat doesn't actually change anything. Squad Zero scales way above the likes of Gremmy, so that feat doesn't actually justify Gremmy scaling to 4-A

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I explained my rationale above. You'll probably disagree with it, which is fine. I just don't think this back and forth will be all that helpful when neither of us are convinced by the other's arguments. With that said, I will await more evaluations from moderators before commenting further.

That's fine ig, as long as you are open to partecipate the debate and change idea, I think this feat its not a clear outlier as people believe to be so it's worth to have an in depth discussion

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Breaking my self-imposed rule for a moment because it's clear that using Squad Zero's feat doesn't actually change anything. Squad Zero scales way above the likes of Gremmy, so that feat doesn't actually justify Gremmy scaling to 4-A

Hi, thank you for joining the thread!

I also agree that Squad Zero is above Gremmy, but Gremmy is still ranked among the strongest characters in the Bleach manga/anime. So, it’s not as if we’re arguing that some random mid-tier character would receive that rating. I feel like people treat Gremmy as if he’s some kind of fodder, but he is explicitly called the strongest even in CFYOW, and his feat has narrative substance to support his reputation.

I want to ask, what makes you believe that Squad Zero is significantly above Gremmy? As far as I know, the manga and anime never explicitly state that Squad Zero is much stronger than him. Base Yhwach was able to fight their leader, Ichibei, fairly well, and Gremmy was considered the strongest Sternritter after him.

 

[CloverDragon03]

There's no comparison there between Yhwach and Gremmy, though. Hell, Yhwach is implied to be stronger as the only one who can handle Yamamoto's Bankai. Gremmy can very easily be vastly below Squad Zero too, and that's not even mentioning how the Ichibei that fought Yhwach wasn't using his true power (which is the power that is 4-A to begin with)

 

[Infinite9Luck]

There's no comparison there between Yhwach and Gremmy, though. Hell, Yhwach is implied to be stronger as the only one who can handle Yamamoto's Bankai. Gremmy can very easily be vastly below Squad Zero too, and that's not even mentioning how the Ichibei that fought Yhwach wasn't using his true power (which is the power that is 4-A to begin with)

That's a fair point, and I agree Yhwach is stronger, but my point is that Gremmy is the one right under him, in terms of scaling. He's the strongest sternitter at that point.

So basically, there's a grey area between squad zero level characters, and characters like Gremmy, Gerard and Zaraki, my question is, if not them, then who need to perform the feat to not be considered an outlier?

They are the one right under squad zero, how can it be an outlier when they are the one under it in terms of scaling? Like, no other characters could perform that feat and bring a narrative consistency except him.

we already have god tiers at above Galaxy level, then Squad Zero at MSS, then we would have the strongest high-top tier, scaling to Gremmy's feat.

This doesn't seem to me an isolated or extreme event like the page outlier state, and neither something against the narrative since Zaraki is later revealed to be even a God tier. (not saying Gremmy scales to him, but my point is that Zaraki fought him with his potential unlocked and almost died)

 

[Johner2133451]

Agree with the OP

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's a fair point, and I agree Yhwach is stronger, but my point is that Gremmy is the one right under him, in terms of scaling. He's the strongest sternitter at that point.

So basically, there's a grey area between squad zero level characters, and characters like Gremmy, Gerard and Zaraki, my question is, if not them, then who need to perform the feat to not be considered an outlier?

They are the one right under squad zero, how can it be an outlier when they are the one under it in terms of scaling? Like, no other characters could perform that feat and bring a narrative consistency except him.

we already have god tiers at above Galaxy level, then Squad Zero at MSS, then we would have the strongest high-top tier, scaling to Gremmy's feat.

This doesn't seem to me an isolated or extreme event like the page outlier state, and neither something against the narrative since Zaraki is later revealed to be even a God tier. (not saying Gremmy scales to him, but my point is that Zaraki fought him with his potential unlocked and almost died)

Different people will give you different answers, but as far as I'm concerned, I would like to have another feat of that tier around the level of Gremmy or Base Yhwach to show some consistency

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Different people will give you different answers, but as far as I'm concerned, I would like to have another feat of that tier around the level of Gremmy or Base Yhwach to show some consistency

I would like to have it as well, but it doesn’t really seem like a strong enough reason to dismiss the feat tho, in my opinion.

The outlier page clearly states that there needs to be a strong reason and motivation against the narrative as well. So far, I don’t think anyone has truly provided that.

The feat did happen, and I think people are failing to realize that across different years of adaptations of novel and anime director, each author has acknowledged Gremmy accomplishing it. So if the authors themselves recognize it, why shouldn’t we? It’s fiction, and it feels like we’re overcomplicating the definition of powerscaling just for the sake of argument.

If a character performs a feat, and the authors reiterate it multiple times, and even stronger characters in the verse have superior feats of that, how can it be considered an outlier?

Gremmy scales just below Squad Zero, so if even he can’t have that feat accepted, then who would need to perform it for it to not be considered an outlier? I would like someone to answer this.

to quote the outlier page:

"However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable."

I’ll respond next post tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for participating.

 

[CloverDragon03]

At the end of the day, it's inconsistent no matter how much it's brought up by the story. Another character on Gremmy's level doing such a feat would prove consistency, but otherwise, there's none to be had here. The Squad Zero feat comes from characters way stronger than Gremmy, so it doesn't actually support anything

Plus, how is it that Gremmy can create outer space yet the "pinnacle" of his imagination is a meteor?

 

[Duedate8898]

I reject this for similar reason of Clover and Damage.

A minor issue I have is that in one of the scans you've provided OP, Kubo doesn't at all state or confirm that Gremmy could indeed create outerspace. Kubo doesn't comment on the space feat at all, the director is the one that brings it up. That said what is being recognized in the first place with all the quotes surrounding the space feat is even the creation of the distant stars its the creation of space. We're the ones assuming that those stars have to be real because the stars are a complete non-factor in both the narrative and outside of it when discussed by the others. They're not acknolweding that Gremmy created a pocket dimension large enough to inhabit multiple distant stars, but that Gremmy could imagine what it was like to be in outerspace.

After that, the treatment of Occam's Razor isn't proper. Gremmy literally creating exactly what he imagines with his power isn't the simpliest conclusion to reach. To literally create all of these things, Gremmy would have to possess a vast knowledge and understanding of the processes that go into their creation or an innate understanding of their exact natures in order to properly imagine these things. Creating a gun is complicated enough, something like a star is even more complicated, and space itself is something we don't even know how its made. That is a huge leap in logic, even going off of the scans provided. A simpler explanation is that whatever Gremmy imagines is enough to threaten kenpachi and soul society as we have to remember this is a piece of fiction not real life being discussed, the simplest thing is that their are stakes to this battle our calcs and assumptions outside of the fiction gets further from Occam's Razor.

That all said, and to reiterate what I said at the start of my post, I disagree

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree

 

[Hellscream]

I reject this for similar reason of Clover and Damage.

A minor issue I have is that in one of the scans you've provided OP, Kubo doesn't at all state or confirm that Gremmy could indeed create outerspace. Kubo doesn't comment on the space feat at all, the director is the one that brings it up. That said what is being recognized in the first place with all the quotes surrounding the space feat is even the creation of the distant stars its the creation of space. We're the ones assuming that those stars have to be real because the stars are a complete non-factor in both the narrative and outside of it when discussed by the others. They're not acknolweding that Gremmy created a pocket dimension large enough to inhabit multiple distant stars, but that Gremmy could imagine what it was like to be in outerspace.

After that, the treatment of Occam's Razor isn't proper. Gremmy literally creating exactly what he imagines with his power isn't the simpliest conclusion to reach. To literally create all of these things, Gremmy would have to possess a vast knowledge and understanding of the processes that go into their creation or an innate understanding of their exact natures in order to properly imagine these things. Creating a gun is complicated enough, something like a star is even more complicated, and space itself is something we don't even know how its made. That is a huge leap in logic, even going off of the scans provided. A simpler explanation is that whatever Gremmy imagines is enough to threaten kenpachi and soul society as we have to remember this is a piece of fiction not real life being discussed, the simplest thing is that their are stakes to this battle our calcs and assumptions outside of the fiction gets further from Occam's Razor.

That all said, and to reiterate what I said at the start of my post, I disagree

Great argument bucko, however

 

[Hellscream]

Anything before this feat, that would scale to Gremmy, would by definition contradict the new value by being massively below it. If you want exacts, I would recommend viewing our Verse Page and seeing all the calculations we have. All of them, without sufficient evidence to address them, would contradict Gremmy scaling to 4-A.

Before it gets misconstrued: I'm not saying that since these feats are massively below 4-A, it must mean anything above them is an Outlier. I'm saying, with the values we have, 4-A is billions of times above anything there, and thus requires a larger burden of evidence to explain that massive difference outside of proving the feat itself is 4-A, and that it could lessen the gap between high tiers and top tiers.


I disagree with that rationalization. Lessening the gap between the two doesn't increase the probability of it being more likely to be true when that gap's validity isn't contingent on anything prior to it. It's a completely useless metric to derive support from.

I explained my rationale above. You'll probably disagree with it, which is fine. I just don't think this back and forth will be all that helpful when neither of us are convinced by the other's arguments. With that said, I will await more evaluations from moderators before commenting further.

I disagree with pretty much everything you've mentioned and can elaborate as to why i disagree but it's pointless
Since this thread has already been double D'd

 

[Hellscream]

At the end of the day, it's inconsistent no matter how much it's brought up by the story. Another character on Gremmy's level doing such a feat would prove consistency, but otherwise, there's none to be had here. The Squad Zero feat comes from characters way stronger than Gremmy, so it doesn't actually support anything

Plus, how is it that Gremmy can create outer space yet the "pinnacle" of his imagination is a meteor?

You're wrong tho, it doesn't create any inconsistencies at all which was already explained

the ONLY character who Gremmy fought is post unohana kenpachi, whom he pushed to his limits.
We don't even know his full extent of his power, despite him fighting gremmy and multiple other characters at that point
HOWEVER we can safely make a deduction as to where he scales, with other showings.

The squad zero feat comes from characters way stronger than Gremmy?
Says who lmao

Uryu > Released Senjumaru
post RG Renji scales to Uryu
We can make a logical deduction that Post RG Byakuya also scales to Renji, along with the likes of Kenpachi and Toshiro as all of them fought Gerard.
Kenpachi scaling to them is consistent with the showings in his fight with Gremmy.

Another point are the statements about gremmy, and what gremmy actually is.
Gremmy is stated to be the strongest Quincy which is not necessarily false.
His power itself most likely actually is the strongest, this is also showcased by Askin who is one of Yhwach's Elite guards, that can be debated to be relative to S0.

Gremmy's power is also consistent with him being the sentient brain of the soul king in the setting.
Which includes the power that was shown by the other bodyparts.

Gremmy created a meteorite with a single clone, and created outerspace with 7 extra clones, which throws your "pinnacle" comment out of the water.
Which you should know yourself so im not even sure why you'd attempt to use that to validate your claims?



also there's this art made by kubo at the end of the chapter which is an obvious implication of him imagining celestial objects, and actually supports the argument.

 

[Adam1396]

Waiting for squad zero outlier feat since all feats before that are magnitude below that.

They also don't have implication of being above the rest just like gremmy or both have?!!

 

[Adam1396]

What I see the best possible course is to revise squad zero's feat which is likely 2C feat and remove the inconsistency rather than being 4A which creates inconsistencies and dismisses solid feat like gremmy's lol

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Hi, thanks for joining the debate, but I don't think you can use Damage and Clover points to agree with them.

Maybe Damage is busy. I would like to continue the debate with him, but he claimed that creating a body strong enough to surpass his imagination is different from creating outer space. I responded by explaining that at a zero level, all matter is the same and requires energy to be created, as per our Creation Feats page. However, he stopped answering. Until my argument is properly addressed, it cannot be deemed incorrect.

CloverDragon claimed that Squad Zero is far above Gremmy, yet no one in this thread has provided a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Maybe you can provide it? Otherwise, a claim needs to be backed up with proof, and I think that is the underlying issue in this thread.

I reject this for similar reason of Clover and Damage.

A minor issue I have is that in one of the scans you've provided OP, Kubo doesn't at all state or confirm that Gremmy could indeed create outerspace. Kubo doesn't comment on the space feat at all, the director is the one that brings it up.

Now let me address your points.

Narita stated it as well, and he is one of the authors of the novel that Kubo deemed canon, so why would his opinion not matter? The anime director also provided another confirmation. So why should we dismiss official sources and instead rely on our own incredulity?

That said what is being recognized in the first place with all the quotes surrounding the space feat is even the creation of the distant stars its the creation of space. We're the ones assuming that those stars have to be real because the stars are a complete non-factor in both the narrative and outside of it when discussed by the others. They're not acknolweding that Gremmy created a pocket dimension large enough to inhabit multiple distant stars, but that Gremmy could imagine what it was like to be in outerspace.

Can you provide evidence that the stars are not real? Everything Gremmy created was real or at least superior to its real-life counterpart. So why would the stars be any different?

Why should this case be an exception when it has never been stated to be one?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Plus, how is it that Gremmy can create outer space yet the "pinnacle" of his imagination is a meteor?

I don’t think this is correct at all. The meteor was actually one of Gremmy’s weakest creations, something he created early on the fight. By the end, everything Gremmy created required 7 to 8 clones and was powerful enough to nearly kill Kenpachi, whereas the meteor was effortless for him.


@CloverDragon03 I see that you may not be very familiar with the verse. What kind of proof would you need for a more informed opinion on the matter?

 

[CloverDragon03]

@CloverDragon03 I see that you may not be very familiar with the verse.

You'll have to forgive my bluntness, but don't do this. Usually, when people throw this kind of rhetoric at me, it's because they wanna talk down to me in a condescending way because I dared to disagree with them

A Kenpachi whose full power was cutting through a meteor was considered too much power for Gremmy to handle. That makes no sense if Gremmy's also creating outer space, which is not considered too much to handle.

 

[CloverDragon03]

CloverDragon claimed that Squad Zero is far above Gremmy, yet no one in this thread has provided a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Maybe you can provide it? Otherwise, a claim needs to be backed up with proof, and I think that is the underlying issue in this thread.

Squad Zero's true power is much greater than their sealed power

Sealed Ichibei fought on par with Base Yhwach

As the only one who can handle Yamamoto's Bankai, Yhwach is much stronger than Gremmy

So, Squad Zero (True Power) > Squad Zero (Sealed Power) ~ Base Yhwach > Gremmy

There's your proof. I've explained this, so please don't go saying no one gave any proof

 

[Hellscream]

Squad Zero's true power is much greater than their sealed power

Sealed Ichibei fought on par with Base Yhwach

As the only one who can handle Yamamoto's Bankai, Yhwach is much stronger than Gremmy

So, Squad Zero (True Power) > Squad Zero (Sealed Power) ~ Base Yhwach > Gremmy

There's your proof. I've explained this, so please don't go saying no one gave any proof

lol

 

[CloverDragon03]

If you have nothing productive to say, don't comment

 

[Hellscream]

If you have nothing productive to say, don't comment

Say less homie

to reiterate your previous nonsensical scaling chain.

Squad zero's unsealed power is indeed much greater than their sealed power.

But where are you getting the information from that Ichibei at any point was ever sealed?
You're pulling information out of the air which is basically why i said "lol"
As Ichibei was never in a "sealed" state to begin with, ichibei has always been at full power in his fight with Yhwach.
Which basically makes everything you've said irrelevant atp

Like you realize the blood oath seal was reliant on the lives of the other 4 members right?
Ichibei was excluded from it, meaning he's never been limited in any way.
Senjumaru had to kill the 3 others, in order to be capable of utilizing her true power, ichibei didn't.

this is BASIC bleach knowledge btw, so im gonna have to agree with @Infinite9Luck on you not being familiar with the verse

 

[Adam1396]

If you have nothing productive to say, don't comment

What productive thing did you even say to tell others to not comment!!

Seriously there should be option for haha reaction as well not just downvote.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

You'll have to forgive my bluntness, but don't do this. Usually, when people throw this kind of rhetoric at me, it's because they wanna talk down to me in a condescending way because I dared to disagree with them

A Kenpachi whose full power was cutting through a meteor was considered too much power for Gremmy to handle. That makes no sense if Gremmy's also creating outer space, which is not considered too much to handle.

I never meant that, and it’s best not to jump to those kinds of conclusions. I’m trying to be respectful, and this isn’t about simply disagreeing, I actually appreciate you are engaging in the debate compared to others. However, you claimed that "the meteor is Gremmy's pinnacle," which is simply incorrect, and that's why I said that.

The meteor was created by just two Gremmy clones early in the fight, and Zaraki was able to cut it down with ease. Later, Gremmy had to produce up to seven additional clones to create the outer space because he felt powerless, not 2 as for the meteor, and that was just to harm Zaraki. When the meteor was created, there were only two clones, so the claim that "the meteor is his pinnacle" is incorrect.

Squad Zero's true power is much greater than their sealed power

Sealed Ichibei fought on par with Base Yhwach

As the only one who can handle Yamamoto's Bankai, Yhwach is much stronger than Gremmy

So, Squad Zero (True Power) > Squad Zero (Sealed Power) ~ Base Yhwach > Gremmy

There's your proof. I've explained this, so please don't go saying no one gave any proof

Thanks for the explanation no one posted it before you, so now I can address it, I think this is where there is a misunderstanding.
I just finished rewatching the anime episode 13 of the second cour. You can clearly see that when the other Squad Zero members sacrifice themselves, Shutara's reiatsu explodes in an aura, signifying that her full power has been unlocked. Ichibei doesn't even has a seal, as you can see only Shutara's one is shown on the big display. Ichibei reiastu never increased and his strength didn't change when the other squad zero members sacrificed themself.

If Ichibei’s power had been sealed in the same way, we would have seen a massive surge in his strength, just as we did with Shutara. But that didn’t happen. The reason for this is that Ichibei was not part of the blood pact that the other Squad Zero members made, as matter of fact Shutara mention that they linked their lives (key word: one to another) to seal away their true swords, and Ichibei didn't kill himself at all, so Shutara's sealing and other S0 sealing is only in regards to the other squad zero members themself and ichibei is not part of it. This is supported by the narrative that Shutara had a huge surge in power, and Ichibei never.

If you are using profiles, I believe they are outdated, for example, I see that Uryu is still not upgraded as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Even if we're to assume that's true, none of that explains Base Yhwach being superior to Gremmy btw, so that still renders S0's 4-A feat as not being usable for consistency with Gremmy's feat

 

[Hellscream]

lol

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Even if we're to assume that's true, none of that explains Base Yhwach being superior to Gremmy btw, so that still renders S0's 4-A feat as not being usable for consistency with Gremmy's feat

The core argument was that Squad Zero is significantly superior to Gremmy, which is why his feat shouldn’t be considered. However, I addressed this point, and you agree as well. Narratively, Gremmy is one of the strongest characters, and while Squad Zero may be somewhat superior, that alone doesn’t make his feat an outlier. If nothing explicitly states that the difference in power is massive, what stops Gremmy from performing a feat on a similar level?

We already have over 10+ characters in the verse scaled from 4-A to 3-C. So why would adding Gremmy and a few others be considered an outlier, especially when he performed a feat within that range, one that has been officially acknowledged by licensed sources?

tier A: God Tier (3C rating, accepted on wiki)
tier B: Squad Zero Full Power (4A rating, accepted on wiki)
tier C: Gremmy, Gerard, Zaraki, Yhwach (debated outlier)
tier D: top tiers (5C, accepted on wiki)
tier E: mid tiers (Tier 6, accepted on wiki)

If it was a Tier D, E, I understand the outlier, but why people right under them performing that feat would be an outlier? Especially if the verse had those feats.

"However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable."

"an extreme example" and "completely unusable" or "irreconcilably inconsistent".

From the Outlier page.

 

[Da3ggman]

Quick question….why can’t it just be listed as “[[Insert Normal Stat Here]], up to 4-A with Reality Warping”? Wouldn’t that clear up any scaling issues, since it’d be through Hax, and not any physical stats?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Even if we're to assume that's true, none of that explains Base Yhwach being superior to Gremmy btw, so that still renders S0's 4-A feat as not being usable for consistency with Gremmy's feat

Base Yhwach is faced with the strongest of Squad 0, Ichibei in particular, No Sterrnriterr is strong enough to seal Yamamoto's Bankai, Base Yhwach>Final form Gerard>Gerard (Shikai+Eyepatchless Zaraki vs. Eyepatch Shikai Zaraki>Gremmy

Don't these prove Base Yhwach>Gremmy? At worst, Liltotto can't believe it when she hears that Yhwach and Gerard lost in CFYOW, but Gremmy's loss didn't surprise her as much as Gerard and Yhwach's losses. Liltotto saw Base Gerard before Aushwelen. Aushwelen buffed and giant Gerard will be stronger than Liltotto knows anyway.

A Kenpachi whose full power was cutting through a meteor was considered too much power for Gremmy to handle. That makes no sense if Gremmy's also creating outer space, which is not considered too much to handle.

This argument is like saying that just because Aizen was happy to destroy the mountain, the mountain level shouldn't be much higher.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Quick question….why can’t it just be listed as “[[Insert Normal Stat Here]], up to 4-A with Reality Warping”? Wouldn’t that clear up any scaling issues, since it’d be through Hax, and not any physical stats?

Hi, thanks for joining the debate.

I think this can work for Gremmy himself, however Gremmy does that with his Imagination power.

The issue come that there are characters like Zaraki; which Gremmy self-admitted, after seeing Zaraki shikai power, his imagination felt short, additionaly he could not imagine a body strong enough as well like Zaraki's, this because Zaraki was too strong for his imagination, in both body and power, this is a important narrative point as well in the story. Zaraki won because his power is superior to whatever Gremmy can imagine.

Zaraki Shikai's power > Gremmy's Imagination > The creation via reality warping of said outer space

This would put Zaraki in his Shikai above Gremmy's Immagination, moreover the 7 clones that used energy to create the space, also suicided to try to kill him, and didnt managed to do so.

So this would mean a couple of character stronger than Shikai Zaraki should scale.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The core argument was that Squad Zero is significantly superior to Gremmy, which is why his feat shouldn’t be considered. However, I addressed this point, and you agree as well. Narratively, Gremmy is one of the strongest characters, and while Squad Zero may be somewhat superior, that alone doesn’t make his feat an outlier. If nothing explicitly states that the difference in power is massive, what stops Gremmy from performing a feat on a similar level?

We already have over 10+ characters in the verse scaled from 4-A to 3-C. So why would adding Gremmy and a few others be considered an outlier, especially when he performed a feat within that range, one that has been officially acknowledged by licensed sources?

tier A: God Tier (3C rating, accepted on wiki)
tier B: Squad Zero Full Power (4A rating, accepted on wiki)
tier C: Gremmy, Gerard, Zaraki, Yhwach (debated outlier)
tier D: top tiers (5C, accepted on wiki)
tier E: mid tiers (Tier 6, accepted on wiki)

If it was a Tier D, E, I understand the outlier, but why people right under them performing that feat would be an outlier? Especially if the verse had those feats.

"However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable."

"an extreme example" and "completely unusable" or "irreconcilably inconsistent".

From the Outlier page.

The problem here is that Yhwach is Tier C here, but the likes of Gremmy would fall into Tier D (hell, Gremmy is only 5-C with a bunch of clones, he's High 6-A otherwise). There's a clear gap between Gremmy and Yhwach with Yhwach being the only one able to handle Yamamoto's Bankai

And I'm not sure what repeatedly copy-pasting the definition of an outlier from our page is supposed to do. I know what it means, and I've concluded that this is in fact an outlier

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I think this will also upscale Unohana. The Eye Patch suppresses Zaraki's power to a great extent. The power increase given by removing the Eye Patch>Shikai amp

She took off her eye patch while fighting Unohana, she didn't take off her eye patch against Gremmy, she just opened her shikai. Of course, Unohana's rise doesn't make this an outlier. Because we had already raised Unohana in the past months because of the expression "Even if she loses to Aizen in the SS arc, she can at least exhaust him".

 

[Hellscream]

The problem here is that Yhwach is Tier C here, but the likes of Gremmy would fall into Tier D (hell, Gremmy is only 5-C with a bunch of clones, he's High 6-A otherwise). There's a clear gap between Gremmy and Yhwach with Yhwach being the only one able to handle Yamamoto's Bankai

And I'm not sure what repeatedly copy-pasting the definition of an outlier from our page is supposed to do. I know what it means, and I've concluded that this is in fact an outlier

The problem here is that yhwach isn't C tier but B tier, as he scales to unsealed ichibei who outscales unsealed senjumaru.

This makes it Ichibei = base Yhwach > Unsealed senjumaru

Which makes the rest of your comment irrelevant

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I'm not going to vote for this topic, but since Royd is accepted as at least 70% of Yhwach's power and he still couldn't handle it, Gremmy could also be at that level and not handle Yamamoto's Bankai. I don't think this by itself means there's a clear gap between the two.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The problem here is that yhwach isn't C tier but B tier, as he scales to unsealed ichibei who outscales unsealed senjumaru.
Which makes the rest of your comment irrelevant

I'm responding to Infinite's tiering, and your claim is based on guesswork

 

[Hellscream]

I'm responding to Infinite's tiering, and your claim is based on guesswork

"your claim is based on guesswork"

yet you claim that you're knowledgeable on the verse?
Come on man, be serious.

Are you actually claiming that unsealed senjumaru outscales ichibei rn?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Unsealed Senjumaru outscales Sealed Ichibei, yes

Don't strawman, and if that's too much to do, don't comment

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Unsealed Senjumaru outscales Sealed Ichibei, yes

Don't strawman, and if that's too much to do, don't comment

There is no sealed Ichibe tho, I have proved it.

 

[Hellscream]

Unsealed Senjumaru outscales Sealed Ichibei, yes

Don't strawman, and if that's too much to do, don't comment

Me when @CloverDragon03 realizes that there is no such thing as "sealed ichibei"
Which has been mentioned twice already, and has been blatantly ignored