BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

[Infinite9Luck]

I have read discussion rules regarding this matter, and this is what it's stated:

• Do not attempt to upgrade Gremmy Thoumeaux based on his feat of creating outer space, as this feat, despite legitimately scaling to his statistics, is extremely inconsistent with his general performance and the feats of other characters on his level and is thus considered an outlier.

I have checked the thread, and it's from a thread of 2021, so it's a thread that is quite old and most importantly even before the release of the new Bleach TYBWA anime.

I think this website should reflect the newest information and keep ratings updated with the release of new information.

The rule itself already said it legit scale to its statistics but I'll post scans again. Hopefully I'll not make errors.

CAN'T FEAR YOUR OWN WORD:

He is able to instantly create outer space, which contain at least a starry sky, hence a 4A rating according to this website AP chart.
I believe this is the most simple interpretation since it's subjective the presence of galaxies on the image.

Recently Kubo had an interview with the anime director, with him stating that indeed Gremmy can create even the outer space:

Spoiler: Explanation

Having established that all the canon and official sources verbatim confirm that Gremmy created it, just as he can create water, firearms, or meteors; he can simply create what he thinks of. Hence, the idea of opening a portal was wrong to begin with. He doesn’t even have that power; he just creates what he imagines.

Someone could argue that it’s inconsistent for him to create such a vast outer space, but it’s fiction. Even the firearms he created were enhanced specifically to harm Kenpachi, meaning what Gremmy creates has different levels of power, and it’s not an anti-feat. Multiple sources confirm that he can create things of such magnitude, so I think the author’s intent is clear and we should follow what the author think. The novel itself repeats this two or three times, why repeat something if it were an outlier? That is the question that should be asked. Additionally, the anime director's interview confirmed the same.

Zaraki would scale beacuse, his power is so great that it made Gremmy's imagination collapse, either by imagining his full strength—hence, no eyepatch—or by utterly failing to create a body as strong as Zaraki, with Gremmy himself admitting that his imagination felt short

Spoiler: Not An Outlier

Regarding the outlier argument, I believe this feat is quite consistent with the recent new feats introduced in the anime, making the scaling chain more consistent on cosmic level for god tiers as well.

Recently, this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/above-heaven-and-below-earth-0-alone-surpasses-13.160302/ by @Arc7Kuroi upgraded Squad Zero to 4-A. The God Tiers are much higher.

Squad Zero consists of characters who are not even God-Tiers within the realm of Bleach, so there is no real reason to dismiss Gremmy's feat, especially considering his reputation as the strongest Sternritter.

Please, let's keep the thread for the feat itself and focus on scaling for the future.

Spoiler: Scaling

I'm not familiar with all the scaling chain on this wiki, but my 2 cent is that his clones should not inherently multiply his AP since the concept of power of imagination functioning as a multiplier is quite vague. Given how imagination works, it is not a mathematical concept. Therefore, for this thread, I will strictly scale it to his seven clones. However, as I mentioned, the meteor and firearms were capable of harming Kenpachi, and the firearms were enhanced by Gremmy meaning the multiplier can also be the case, I'm not dismissing it. This means that Gremmy's power should not be limited to just those feats in the first place. The scaling can be discussed in future threads anyway, my intention is to keep this very simple.

I believe that until the new anime comes out the scaling should be limited and applied only to Gremmy's 7 clones, Zaraki Kenpachi with his Shikai, Gerard and Adult True Bankai Toshiro, since those are the only which directly scale either to Shikai Kenpachi or Gremmy's feat itself. Other characters have their own scaling and as such could be discussed in new threads

So, in conclusion, for 7 clones Gremmy's AP being 4A:

Agree: @LephyrTheRevanchist (agree with both Gremmy and Zaraki scaling) @Reiner04 (agree with both Gremmy and Zaraki scaling)

Neutral: @Damage3245

Disagree: @Duedate8898

 

[Damage3245]

Even if we accepted that Gremmy did create legitimate stars, I don't see that as being a reason to assume that the explosion he hit Kenpachi with scales to the value of creating multiple stars. It appears to be applying a very loose powerscaling of imagination power to just be whatever is convenient for us.

If he created bullets or missiles with his imagination then actually those bullets and missiles aren't as powerful as real-life bullets and missiles, they're actually far more powerful than normal because he could harm Kenpachi with them.

But when he's creating stars with his ability, then actually those are exactly as powerful as real-life stars? That seems inconsistent. And moreso, we have no reason to suggest that the explosion he created is as powerful as those stars, why would it be? Did Gremmy specifically imagine "I want to make an explosion that is as powerful as multiple stars popping into existence"?

In essence if there's no direct correlation between the thing Gremmy is creating and how powerful they actually are, I think scaling his AP directly to 4-A when it has never been suggested that any of the attacks he creates are that powerful is dubious at best - especially considering the one time he arguably did a 4-A feat it was solely to create a vacuum to attack Kenpachi with, rather than a direct attack.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

hard disagree for now, might get into details later

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I normally get Gremmy as 4-A but not like this.

Anyway, if we talk about this scaling, I don't see any problem with it being accepted. But as you mentioned, not only Zaraki, Gerard and Adult Toshiro's scaling increases. Unohana, Pre Hogyoku Aizen, Base Yhwach and Yamamoto also increase. Well, if you ask me, these characters can be scaled to 4-A by saying they are at least stronger than Senjumaru, but in this wiki, it is accepted as Squad 0>Yamamoto. So unless we change the ranking of the general Bleach characters or get 4-A Yamamoto accepted, it is difficult for this to be accepted.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree for Damage reasons.

 

[Adam1396]

It was considered an outlier which seems incredibly stupid right now with new feats.

What damage is doing is just false equivalency. Man gonna find himself busy downgrading a lot of verse below street level with such logic frame might even delete profile out of anger due to inconsistency, outlier excuse.
And I refuse to elaborate further on such simple topic for obvious reason. Think yourself..

 

[DavidTPPM]

Squad Zero consists of characters who are not even God-Tiers within the realm of Bleach, so there is no real reason to dismiss Gremmy's feat,

Squad Zero may not be "god tiers" like Yhwach or Aizen, but they are the top tiers nonetheless.
They're the peak of shinigami directly under soul king, and even Yhwach beating Yamamoto who was the commander of shinigami and self proclaimed strongest shinigami of the past 1000 years didn't scare them at all.

So they're clearly beyond regular Sternritters and Shinigami.

especially considering his reputation as the strongest Sternritter.
[/SPOILER]

Because he has the most powerful hax, not because he literally punches the hardest.
And that doesn't change the fact that nothing he's shown offensively comes even close to 4-A/3-C and neither has anyone else of similar power range. Hence why it's considered an outlier.

Personally I'd even question the "despite legitimately scaling to statistics" section given its mainly hax but idrc.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

didn't scare them at all.

I don't think their lack of fear proves that they are stronger than Yamamoto or Aizen. Byakuya has stood up to everyone who is much stronger than him without fear. As someone with fear hax like Nodt, only he could be scared. I can give a few more examples of fear.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't think their lack of fear proves that they are stronger than Yamamoto or Aizen.

At worst it should make them comparable. They are more than knowledgeable enough to know Yhwach would kill them if he already killed someone stronger.

Byakuya has stood up to everyone who is much stronger than him without fear.

So? Besides Byakuya being a different person, that doesn't really matter here.
Squad 0 didn't just stand up to Yhwach. They mocked him for supposedly thinking that he can beat them just because he beat Yamamoto.

That's a pretty direct implication that Yamamoto is basically nothing to them and beating him doesn't in any way mean you have a chance at beating S0

As someone with fear hax like Nodt, only he could be scared. I can give a few more examples of fear.

What

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

What

I was writing from the translation and AsNodt's name came out very different.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

We should not forget that Yamamoto lost one of his arms. And Yhwach didn't beat him fairly anyway. He gave the finishing blow to Yamamoto who had drained his stamina against Royd.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Even if we accepted that Gremmy did create legitimate stars, I don't see that as being a reason to assume that the explosion he hit Kenpachi with scales to the value of creating multiple stars. It appears to be applying a very loose powerscaling of imagination power to just be whatever is convenient for us.

If he created bullets or missiles with his imagination then actually those bullets and missiles aren't as powerful as real-life bullets and missiles, they're actually far more powerful than normal because he could harm Kenpachi with them.

But when he's creating stars with his ability, then actually those are exactly as powerful as real-life stars? That seems inconsistent. And moreso, we have no reason to suggest that the explosion he created is as powerful as those stars, why would it be? Did Gremmy specifically imagine "I want to make an explosion that is as powerful as multiple stars popping into existence"?

In essence if there's no direct correlation between the thing Gremmy is creating and how powerful they actually are, I think scaling his AP directly to 4-A when it has never been suggested that any of the attacks he creates are that powerful is dubious at best - especially considering the one time he arguably did a 4-A feat it was solely to create a vacuum to attack Kenpachi with, rather than a direct attack.

I'll address your concerns now.

I believe the burden is on you to prove that the stars are smaller or weaker than real-life stars. I'll wait for you to provide evidence for that. Otherwise, I'll apply Occam's Razor and assume that what Gremmy created are real stars at a bare minimum, since he has never created something weaker than its real-life counterpart.

Zaraki would scale because the novel explicitly states that Gremmy was completely unable to imagine a body as strong as Zaraki’s, despite being able to imagine outer space. This means that Zaraki’s body, while in Shikai, surpasses anything Gremmy has imagined before.

 

[Damage3245]

Zaraki would scale because the novel explicitly states that Gremmy was completely unable to imagine a body as strong as Zaraki’s, despite being able to imagine outer space. This means that Zaraki’s body, while in Shikai, surpasses anything Gremmy has imagined before.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything because he hasn't shown the ability to imagine a body that could withstand the energy of a star in the first place. So Zaraki's power doesn't necessarily need to transcend that of all those stars to be beyond what Gremmy is capable of imagine handling.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

That doesn't necessarily mean anything because he hasn't shown the ability to imagine a body that could withstand the energy of a star in the first place. So Zaraki's power doesn't necessarily need to transcend that of all those stars to be beyond what Gremmy is capable of imagine handling.

If Gremmy can imagine outer space with stars but is unable to create a body like Zaraki's because his imagination literally fell short, it means Zaraki is beyond the scope of Gremmy's imagination. Hence, Zaraki scales above Gremmy's imagination. This is also emphasized in the novel, that confirms gremmy was unable to create a body as strong as that.

 

[Damage3245]

If Gremmy can imagine outer space with stars but is unable to create a body like Zaraki's because his imagination literally fell short, it means Zaraki is beyond the scope of Gremmy's imagination. Hence, Zaraki scales above Gremmy's imagination. This is also emphasized in the novel.

No, it just means Zaraki's body is beyond the most powerful body that Gremmy could imagine - not beyond the most powerful thing Gremmy has ever imagined.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

No, it just means Zaraki's body is beyond the most powerful body that Gremmy could imagine - not beyond the most powerful thing Gremmy has ever imagined.

Creating things from nothing requires energy. At a zero state, all matter is the same. If someone can bring to reality whatever they imagine, yet they are able to create a space filled with stars but not a strong enough body because it surpasses the power of imagination itself, then this means that the body's strength exceeds the power of imagination, and that was also pretty much the whole point of the fight tbh.

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't believe since we have new feats from characters who are explicitly, and massively, above Gremmy himself, makes the feat that Gremmy has any less unprecedented for his level of strength within the series. It's for that alone I disagree with rescinding the rule until we have more reason for the feat being consistent rather than inconsistent.

Damage's argument also addresses another possible issue with the interpretation, but I have my own gripes with that. Still, it doesn't really matter in my final decision making. Even without it, I still disagree.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I don't believe since we have new feats from characters who are explicitly, and massively, above Gremmy himself, makes the feat that Gremmy has any less unprecedented for his level of strength within the series. It's for that alone I disagree with rescinding the rule until we have more reason for the feat being consistent rather than inconsistent.

What would be the inconsistencies? Claiming something is an outlier should be backed up a lot.
Why would it be an outlier when the series has already feats of this level and higher?

 

[Hellscream]

I agree, don't really care about any previous arguments
the feat is crystal clear

 

[Deceived3596]

What would be the inconsistencies? Claiming something is an outlier should be backed up a lot.
Why would it be an outlier when the series has already feats of this level and higher?

We have no other feats around this level, done by characters around that level. The feat you're trying to scale Gremmy to is billions of times beyond what the best current feats we accept for them. If you want to build further consistency for the argument, you'd have to provide other feats that would make the scale more probable than not.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

We have no other feats around this level, done by characters around that level. The feat you're trying to scale Gremmy to is billions of times beyond what the best current feats we accept for them. If you want to build further consistency for the argument, you'd have to provide other feats that would make the scale more probable than not.

That doesn't align with the definition of outlier tho. I'll post it here for you.

Outlier is not just about character of same level of power having the same feats, but more about the series itself having those feats.

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forum debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.

Display of power in Bleach: We have in total around 10 or more characters rated at 4A or higher. If we add Uryu, Jugram, the list increase.
This means there are 10 events at least of people displaying that kind of power. Either by scaling, which is a feat itself when harming someone, or by statements or producing feats.

This mean the series itself can produce such feats, so why would Gremmy feat be considered "an extreme example" and "completely unusable" or "irreconcilably inconsistent"?

We have characters that can shake the universe itself by using just a small percentage of their power, which is a much bigger scope than anything Gremmy did.

Even by looking at the 5 question on the page, it can't really be said this feat classify as such.

 

[Damage3245]

Why would it be an outlier when the series has already feats of this level and higher?

Deceived answered this pretty well. Other, more powerful characters, having more powerful feats doesn't necessarily make feats performed be lesser characters to be less of an outlier.

Just because - for example - the Hulk could have a Country busting feat, that doesn't mean that Hawkeye being proposed to be Island level would be less of an outlier.

 

[Deceived3596]

An Outlier is context-dependent on the character / verse in question. Since we're talking about a specific character, who has a known limit and range to his power, we must take in all the feats done by characters who are as strong or weaker than him to see if his feats coincide with them or not.

For Gremmy, we don't have any other feats supporting him scaling to 4-A. It's only one possible feat, done by one character and that's it. It's because of this that I believe the feat is an Outlier as nothing else supports it being more likely true compared to where we currently scale them, which has way more evidence supporting its validity.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

An Outlier is context-dependent on the character / verse in question. Since we're talking about a specific character, who has a known limit and range to his power, we must take in all the feats done by characters who are as strong or weaker than him to see if his feats coincide with them or not.

For Gremmy, we don't have any other feats supporting him scaling to 4-A. It's only one possible feat, done by one character and that's it. It's because of this that I believe the feat is an Outlier as nothing else supports it being more likely true compared to where we currently scale them, which has way more evidence supporting its validity.

I believe that is untrue, Zaraki jumped from Moon level to Galaxy level, and it was Gremmy's opponent just couple of months prior.
If anything this feat is the opposite of an outlier since it help to make the scaling jump more smooth.

However given this is the current issue, I'll post a message later explain in details this problem using wiki standards.

 

[Deceived3596]

I believe that is untrue, Zaraki jumped from Moon level to Galaxy level, and it was Gremmy's opponent just couple of months prior.
If anything this feat is the opposite of an outlier since it help to make the scaling jump more smooth.

However given this is the current issue, I'll post a message later explain in details this problem using wiki standards.

Zaraki's scaling is derived from scaling to feats that have actual credence to them. It's a completely different situation than what Gremmy has. We're not saying that since the jump itself is large, the feat is an Outlier. We're saying we don't have enough evidence to support the jump to begin with, thus making the conclusion that we do, unlikely.

 

[Hellscream]

Deceived answered this pretty well. Other, more powerful characters, have more powerful feats doesn't necessarily make feats performed be lesser characters to be less of an outlier.

Just because - for example - the Hulk could have a Country busting feat, that doesn't mean that Hawkeye being proposed to be Island level would be less of an outlier.

Because it's just not an outlier, it's an on panel creation feat.
The only thing this does is upscale the previous tiering list for characters that scale above gremmy atp.
Gremmy is also stated to be the strongest Quincy, up to the point where even askin doesn't want anything to do with him.
And there's only a handful of characters that would scale to this, unlike the Hawkeye comparison you've made.
Gremmy also pushed Kenpachi to his limits in his fight with him, only reason why he lost is due to the way he utilized his power, gremmy could be argued to be above multiple characters that are currently above him in scaling.

Like it's not even inconsistent with the current level of power and scaling lmao, the only characters that would scale to this are the elite guards, S0, post RG byakuya / renji, Kenpachi, Yamamoto, and the God tiers.

We already have S0 shaking UNIVERSAL SIZED REALMS just by flexing their reiatsu, not even doing anything.
which will be used to upscale a whole lot of high tier characters and will be used as a baseline.


Character is stated to have created outerspace > said outerspace has stars / galaxies in it > gremmy scales to it due to creating it

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Zaraki's scaling is derived from scaling to feats that have actual credence to them. It's a completely different situation than what Gremmy has. We're not saying that since the jump itself is large, the feat is an Outlier. We're saying we don't have enough evidence to support the jump to begin with.

Ok thanks for the clarification, so let's discuss this because I don't believe it is a completely different situation.

What makes this feat lack credibility, while Zaraki's later feats are considered valid?

It's the same character, with only a couple of months difference.

Your interpretation suggests that just a few months prior, Zaraki was at Moon level, and simply by training with Kendo in the 11th Division, he suddenly jumped to Galaxy level, because now his feats have credibility.

My interpretation, however, is that after unlocking his true strength, as explained in depth in the manga, Zaraki was already at Multi-Solar System level based on scaling to feats happened on screen. This would provide consistency with his later Galaxy-level rating, which has already been approved, a rating you yourself acknowledged as credible.

Gremmy made Zaraki vomit blood and nearly killed him, meaning he scales to him. Gremmy’s feat is consistent with Zaraki’s later feats and Bleach's cosmic portrayal.

How can you consider Gremmy's feat an outlier while accepting that just a few months later, Zaraki supposedly jumped to Galaxy level?

Even by not fully agreeing with this, Zaraki existence alone cant make this feat "an extreme example" and "completely unusable" or "irreconcilably inconsistent".

Would not you agree it make sense that, if Zaraki was previously 4A, his jump to galaxy level in couple of months of light training, make it far more credible?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Because it's just not an outlier, it's an on panel creation feat.
The only thing this does is upscale the previous tiering list for characters that scale above gremmy atp.
Gremmy is also stated to be the strongest Quincy, up to the point where even askin doesn't want anything to do with him.
And there's only a handful of characters that would scale to this, unlike the Hawkeye comparison you've made.
Gremmy also pushed Kenpachi to his limits in his fight with him, only reason why he lost is due to the way he utilized his power, gremmy could be argued to be above multiple characters that are currently above him in scaling.

Like it's not even inconsistent with the current level of power and scaling lmao, the only characters that would scale to this are the elite guards, S0, post RG byakuya / renji, Kenpachi, Yamamoto, and the God tiers.

We already have S0 shaking UNIVERSAL SIZED REALMS just by flexing their reiatsu, not even doing anything.
which will be used to upscale a whole lot of high tier characters and will be used as a baseline.


Character is stated to have created outerspace > said outerspace has stars / galaxies in it > gremmy scales to it due to creating it

Yes, I agree with you as well, an universe is trillion of times bigger than a pocket outer space gremmy created, and S0 shook it with minimal effort.
Askin was scared of Gremmy, and as well other sternitters to the point Yhwach had to seal him alone.

An outlier would be if gremmy feat would be a single case, but Bleach is displaying lot of cosmic level feats, so claiming this is an outlier should be backed up a lot.

 

[AyeZ2]

I agree he blatantly created outer space

 

[DavidTPPM]

How can you consider Gremmy's feat an outlier while accepting that just a few months later, Zaraki supposedly jumped to Galaxy level?

The 2 arguments are completely different, comparing them is a false equivalence to begin with.

The rate at which Zaraki can grow has no correlation to how strong Gremmy is. If narratively consistent in-universe feats undeniably prove Kentucky is galaxy level then he is galaxy level.
That doesn't make Gremmy's vague inconsistent crossverse feats grant him a billion times jump.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

The 2 arguments are completely different, comparing them is a false equivalence to begin with.

The rate at which Zaraki can grow has no correlation to how strong Gremmy is. If narratively consistent in-universe feats undeniably prove Kentucky is galaxy level then he is galaxy level.
That doesn't make Gremmy's vague inconsistent crossverse feats grant him a billion times jump.

When Zaraki fought Gremmy he had already unlocked his true potential, and Gremmy almost killed him, Zaraki had no reason to jump from Moon level to Galaxy level after that. He just got stronger.

It's like claiming that Zaraki's unlucking his true potential had a billion smaller boost than him training kendo in the 11th division in just couple of months after in peace time, are you familiar with Bleach lore?

Beside, Gremmy feat happened for real and its stated to be a thing 3 times in novel, and 1 time in an official interview.

What makes Gremmy feat incosistent for you?

 

[Deceived3596]

The substantive difference between Gremmy and Kenpachi is that Kenpachi derives his scaling from defeating characters who explicitly scale to that value. Kenpachi isn't committing any feats around that level, he's just by consequence scaling to it by the fact he defeats people who do. For us to make sure this claim is supported, we must show him actually scaling to those characters, and evidence explaining away the jump in power. Both of which are addressed on his profile.

That claim doesn't require the same evidence as asserting Gremmy's feat of creating Outer Space should scale to him, when other feats contradict him by being vastly below what you're claiming. It would be your burden to explain away that supposed contradiction by providing evidence, rationalizing the jump in power. I don't believe the evidence that you gave addresses this burden, thus not swaying my opinion on the matter.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

A couple of quick things.

The anime shows that 8 Gremmy created outer space, not 7. But 7 Gremmy exploded on Zaraki. Given that for 4-A to be accepted Gremmy’s clones would inherently be exponential amps, Zaraki withstanding the 7 explosion wouldn’t scale him to the 8 outer space.

There’s also other ways you can interpret Gremmy’s statement about Zaraki. That is as more of a potential statement rather than right in the moment. Because during the fight Gremmy was capable of harming that Zaraki pretty badly. And we know as of the TYBW Zaraki can’t even handle his own power (his Bankai rips him apart). It isn’t until CFYOW that he becomes like God tier strong. So I think we can consistently say Shikai eyepatch Zaraki probably doesn’t scale.

The best you can concretely give Gremmy here is “up to 4-A with Reality Warping (blah 8 Gremmy did this blah)”. I do think a strong case can be made for that rating to go on Gremmy’s profile; however, it’s very much a fluff rating in terms of scaling. That’s to say I don’t really care if he gets it or not lol.

Others have said my other contentions (S0 doesn’t support Gremmy unless you can prove that Gremmy is around S0 level, etc).

TLDR; I disagree with the proposed scaling, but I’m neutral on whether or not Gremmy gets 4-A with his peak reality warping.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He just got stronger.

Case closed, problem solved.

It's like claiming that Zaraki's unlucking his true potential had a billion smaller boost than him training kendo in the 11th division in just couple of months after in peace time,

Sure. We literally accept shit like that all the time because that's just how things work in fiction.

I mean just look at Naruto. We just recently accepted that Kaguya absorbing what should be less than 16% more chakra gave her a billion times AP jump with noone who scaled to her before scaling to that value.

are you familiar with Bleach lore?

I'm only a casual fan/reader so kinda.

Beside, Gremmy feat happened for real and its stated to be a thing 3 times in novel, and 1 time in an official interview.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this. Noone is doubting the feat existing. What's doubted is:
1. Whether or not it actually scales to stats.
2. Whether or not it's an outlier.

What makes Gremmy feat incosistent for you?

I believe this was already explained many times in their thread. Nobody around or below Gremmys level does anything even remotely close to this with the nearest feat being billions of times lower.

 

[Hellscream]

It's for sure illogical for the sentient brain of the soul king to scale to this level, despite the feats depicted by his other bodyparts

Mimihagi stabilizes the entire cosmology
Pernida basically evolves into kenpachi levels of power
Gerard shitstomps 10 captains, along with characters that had RG training and kenpachi

 

[Hellscream]

The substantive difference between Gremmy and Kenpachi is that Kenpachi derives his scaling from defeating characters who explicitly scale to that value. Kenpachi isn't committing any feats around that level, he's just by consequence scaling to it by the fact he defeats people who do. For us to make sure this claim is supported, we must show him actually scaling to those characters, and evidence explaining away the jump in power. Both of which are addressed on his profile.

That claim doesn't require the same evidence as asserting Gremmy's feat of creating Outer Space should scale to him, when other feats contradict him by being vastly below what you're claiming. It would be your burden to explain away that supposed contradiction by providing evidence, rationalizing the jump in power. I don't believe the evidence that you gave addresses this burden, thus not swaying my opinion on the matter.

What feats are contradicting gremmy exactly?

 

[Adam1396]

Gremmy most feasibly imagined the full potential of zaraki. Which his body couldn’t handle. We have seen even zaraki's body failed to contain slightest release of that full power.

But we being like, Nah, I would just adjust the narrative so that it can fit my scaling

 

[Infinite9Luck]

The substantive difference between Gremmy and Kenpachi is that Kenpachi derives his scaling from defeating characters who explicitly scale to that value. Kenpachi isn't committing any feats around that level, he's just by consequence scaling to it by the fact he defeats people who do. For us to make sure this claim is supported, we must show him actually scaling to those characters, and evidence explaining away the jump in power. Both of which are addressed on his profile.

That claim doesn't require the same evidence as asserting Gremmy's feat of creating Outer Space should scale to him, when other feats contradict him by being vastly below what you're claiming. It would be your burden to explain away that supposed contradiction by providing evidence, rationalizing the jump in power. I don't believe the evidence that you gave addresses this burden, thus not swaying my opinion on the matter.

I didn't said that tho, I said my interpretation is more likely to be true because a huge jump in power is less likely to happen than a smaller one that is justified, by an actual feat.

What other feats contradicts him being that level? Can you provide evidences?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

A couple of quick things.

The anime shows that 8 Gremmy created outer space, not 7. But 7 Gremmy exploded on Zaraki. Given that for 4-A to be accepted Gremmy’s clones would inherently be exponential amps, Zaraki withstanding the 7 explosion wouldn’t scale him to the 8 outer space.

There’s also other ways you can interpret Gremmy’s statement about Zaraki. That is as more of a potential statement rather than right in the moment. Because during the fight Gremmy was capable of harming that Zaraki pretty badly. And we know as of the TYBW Zaraki can’t even handle his own power (his Bankai rips him apart). It isn’t until CFYOW that he becomes like God tier strong. So I think we can consistently say Shikai eyepatch Zaraki probably doesn’t scale.

The best you can concretely give Gremmy here is “up to 4-A with Reality Warping (blah 8 Gremmy did this blah)”. I do think a strong case can be made for that rating to go on Gremmy’s profile; however, it’s very much a fluff rating in terms of scaling. That’s to say I don’t really care if he gets it or not lol.

Others have said my other contentions (S0 doesn’t support Gremmy unless you can prove that Gremmy is around S0 level, etc).

TLDR; I disagree with the proposed scaling, but I’m neutral on whether or not Gremmy gets 4-A with his peak reality warping.

Thank you for answering and joining the debate, and not using the outlier argument without posting any contradictory feats.

I checked the anime episode and you are right there are 8 gremmy but only 7 actively create the Outer space, only those 7 create the space with their hands. The same 7 that created the space sacrifice themself to try to kill Zaraki, without winning. Regardless there were 8 even when the explosion happen.

My argument also is that Zaraki's strenght outclass gremmy's Immagination, hence if we agree to scale Gremmy to whatever rating with the Visionary, then Zaraki with Shikai (at that moment) would scale physically, since his body is superior to Gremmy's immagination as per novel and manga. Base Yhwach's power as well upscale above Gremmy's imagination.

• Gremmy failed to imagine a body as strong as Zaraki and his immagination went short (that would be an excuse, my Imagination came short while imagine your body)
• (He was unable to imagine a body that could wield that power)
• But he was able to easily create Outer space.

Zaraki's physicals (tanked the 7 gremmy that created the space, made Gremmy's Imagination collapse) > Gremmy's Imagination > outer space.

Additionaly from Vs Battle Profile:

Yhwach states that only he can handle the power of Zanka no Tachi, implying Yhwach is on the level of Yamamoto's Bankai, this would mean Yhwach is stronger than the rest of his Stern Ritter.

Yhwach also sealed Gremmy, and he could not get out as well, meaning Yhwach as well should scales above Gremmy's imagination. (Yhwach can create a barrier to contain threats such as Gremmy Thoumeaux)

Would that make sense to you?

 

[Deceived3596]

What feats are contradicting gremmy exactly?

Anything before this feat, that would scale to Gremmy, would by definition contradict the new value by being massively below it. If you want exacts, I would recommend viewing our Verse Page and seeing all the calculations we have. All of them, without sufficient evidence to address them, would contradict Gremmy scaling to 4-A.

Before it gets misconstrued: I'm not saying that since these feats are massively below 4-A, it must mean anything above them is an Outlier. I'm saying, with the values we have, 4-A is billions of times above anything there, and thus requires a larger burden of evidence to explain that massive difference outside of proving the feat itself is 4-A, and that it could lessen the gap between high tiers and top tiers.

I didn't said that tho, I said my interpretation is more likely to be true because a huge jump in power is less likely to happen than a smaller one that is justified, by an actual feat.

What other feats contradicts him being that level? Can you provide evidences?

I disagree with that rationalization. Lessening the gap between the two doesn't increase the probability of it being more likely to be true when that gap's validity isn't contingent on anything prior to it. It's a completely useless metric to derive support from.

I explained my rationale above. You'll probably disagree with it, which is fine. I just don't think this back and forth will be all that helpful when neither of us are convinced by the other's arguments. With that said, I will await more evaluations from moderators before commenting further.