Freddy Krueger big upgrades

[Raincutter]

Having read through this, it's clear Krueger's profile is very bare bones. He's missing a lot of powers and very likely scales way higher.
Disclaimer: Most of this is canon.

General Power Additions:

Conceptual Manipulation - This is from the Black Flame novels (canon). The Astral Plane is a realm of abstract concepts. Freddy has less power over this realm, but still was able to brute force his way into the dimension
Pocket Reality Manipulation - He did this the FvJvA comic and created another inside someone in the non canon marvel comic
Causality Manipulation - Demonstrated here, and here.
Black Hole Creation - Demonstrated here.
Plot Manipulation - Did this to the writer of FvJvA, he also directs the episodes of his own TV series and interacts with the actors. On a meta level, this could take place within the New Nightmare verse not the real "real" world.
Exrtrasensory Perception - Sensed a woman across dimensions
Fate Manipulation - should be no less skilled than Jacob.
Abstract Existence Type 2 - Embodiment of hate,
Resistance to:
Existence Erasure - The ending of NoeS, in comic form here, too.
Fate Manipulation - Jacob willed a fate for him which he eventually overcame
Power Nullification - After being depowered by the Dream Demons in Nightmare Warriors, he still is implied to have survived his origin being erased
Anti-Matter - Survived Anti-Freddy, who was designed to destroy him as anti-matter does regular matter.
Energy Manipulation - Here.
Mind Manipulation - Here.
Dream Manipulation - Duh.



Base Freddy
Base Freddy implied he could blow up an Earth within the Dream World rather casually, and he also manipulates what are likely dozens of stars to fly at massive speeds (5-B to 4-A)
He turned into the moon in this novel to fellate a girl, and in this dubiously canon graphic novel. Krueger Curse is written by an actor from NoES 5. 5-C?
Created creatures that ate the Sun (4-C)
He has other feats of manipulating celestial bodies, but you get the gist.


It's debatable whether he scales to the entirety of the dream realm, but he should definitely scale to individual dreams as he has several statements of being master, king, having the laws and physics of the realm at his beck and call. Individual dreams have statements of being infinite, and Freddy himself stretched a road to infinity. High 3-A for individual dreams, but there's a case to be made that he scales higher into the cosmology as he has merged several dreams together (I believe he does this one of the films as well), he also seemingly resides over the Dream Pool, which contains dreams from past, present, and future and considers it "little," and seemingly affected all of existence with a shout or laugh Low 2-C for merging several dreams, 2-B for reigning over a finite, but huge amount of dreams if he scales to the Dream Realm entirely

His travel speed should also scale above Bekka, who could fly to a point farther away than the outermost part of the galaxy, MFTL+. He also apparently threw this guy into another dream entirely. I wouldn't ordinarily use ads, but it can be used imo with how meta Freddy is

Necronomicon
Necronomicon Freddy is above the Dream Demons, as it is stated here he is above them.
The Necronomicon was used by the Dark Ones to rule all of creation per a tie in game taking place post-AOD, so this would scale him over the entire cosmology, Whether this is usable or not, I won't say, but both Evil Dead, F13, and NOES share a cosmology, and Rose states there are infinite timelines. A scientist who studied the Necronomicon in FvJvA also stated it has "boundless" power Multiversal+. A lower interpretation comes from this guy, who states that the verse uses Many Worlds theory. for a extremely large, but finite number of parallel universes. Maybe he just got it wrong.

Given the nature of parallel universes, and Freddy all but being God, with the Necronomicon. There's a case for him scaling above Cthulhu and Damballa from the Dynamite Comics Ash series, the latter of whom created the universes.

Changes​

Base Freddy's AP should be Varies since his powers fluctuate based on belief, the amount of souls he's absorbed, fear, etc, anywhere from High Hypoverse level (At his weakest, completely failed to affect an ordinary person), to Multi-Solar System level (moved several stars, created creatures that ate the sun, etc.), and At his peak High Universal level / Low Multiversal / Multiversal (Depending on whether we scale him to his individual dreams, multiple dreams, or the Dream World entirely). His durability should be "nerfed" to Varies since his form in Dreams is essentially an avatar to mess around with, He can go from trading blows with ordinary people, to fighting Jason, to being celestial bodies,

MFTL+ travel speed

Necronomicon Freddy is either 2-B (Many Worlds theory) or 2-A (Rose statement), It's reasonable that the first guy just got it wrong.

And ofc his powers and abilities need to be updated, I probably missed a lot, but that should be the major things.

*Jason/Ash scaling to him is a combination of Freddy holding back, PIS, and outliers for 2 popular characters to be relevant.

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

sounds good so I agree

 

[ShockingPsychic]

The TV show is definitely not canon. I've watched it, the plot is completely different.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Most of this is canon.

This is a fan's website.

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

This is a fan's website.

And the stuff that rain got from comes from that blogspot duh

 

[Raincutter]

The TV show is definitely not canon. I've watched it, the plot is completely different.

Given that Freddy himself made it, it could easily be canon as a tv show within the dream world, or something he made while brainwashing in the entire town in Nightmare 5, or him just ******* with people's souls in the dream world

 

[Raincutter]

This is a fan's website.

Ah, I see. The website tracks what New Line actively approved (as they'd made deals with other publishers prior with how popular Freddy was) starting from the 90s and also fits what it can into canon, and tosses out what can't fit on the timeline.

https://nightmareonelmstreetfilms.com/Files/nightmareonelmstreettimeline.pdf

I don't think this changes anything with how we handle EU material, seems like they just saved us the trouble of figuring what comics and novels can fit in and what can't.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Black Flame novels (canon).

We treat those as an alternate canon, if Jason's Black Flame novels are anything to go by (I'd assume so, since Freddy and Jason share a verse)

Abstract Existence Type 2 - Embodiment of hate,

Seems like flowery language to me, typical "wow he's the embodiment of evil!!!" type of stuff

Given that Freddy himself made it, it could easily be canon as a tv show within the dream world, or something he made while brainwashing in the entire town in Nightmare 5, or him just ******* with people's souls in the dream world

Freddy hosts most of it, but he also hosts the first episode, where he tells his backstory. And his backstory that he tells is completely different from his canon one.

both Evil Dead, F13, and NOES share a cosmology

It's worth noting that only certain Evil Dead comics share a canon with Ft13 and NoES, not the mainline canon. So I'm unsure about using a scan from the television series to back up this claim

Some of this seems fine, but I don't agree that the novels are canon (which is seemingly what the wiki agrees with at the moment, if Jason's stuff is anything to go by), and know that the TV show definitely isn't canon, so I disagree with using things from those sources. They can get their own profiles, just not be added to the main one

 

[Raincutter]

We treat those as an alternate canon, if Jason's Black Flame novels are anything to go by (I'd assume so, since Freddy and Jason share a verse)

A mod agreed with me here they could all fit into canon besides HKR (if you don't wanna believe Jason went on another rampage between 7 and 9. Seems weird to justify the BF Freddy novels being separate canon because of the (debunked) BF Jason profile not considering anything past 8 canon. It's like we're saying they somehow take place in the same verse, but at the same time the whole justification for them taking place aside from the main ones hinges on them NOT taking place in the same verse.

Seems like flowery language to me, typical "wow he's the embodiment of evil!!!" type of stuff

No, it's quite literal. There's other stuff about how his evil presence was passively wiping out a dreamer's essence and how he can't die so long as negative emotions exist. Funnily enough, Jason has a very similar statement in one of the novels that allows him to teleport and grants type 8 immo

Freddy hosts most of it, but he also hosts the first episode, where he tells his backstory. And his backstory that he tells is completely different from his canon one.

And the biggest troll in horror can be expected not to embellish the details of his death?

It's worth noting that only certain Evil Dead comics share a canon with Ft13 and NoES, not the mainline canon. So I'm unsure about using a scan from the television series to back up this claim

I don't see the problem since it's about the greater cosmology itself rather than a single universe, and Evil Dead has embraced the multiverse concept with its several comics and games.

Some of this seems fine, but I don't agree that the novels are canon (which is seemingly what the wiki agrees with at the moment, if Jason's stuff is anything to go by), and know that the TV show definitely isn't canon, so I disagree with using things from those sources. They can get their own profiles, just not be added to the main one

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

A mod agreed with me here they could all fit into canon besides HKR (if you don't wanna believe Jason went on another rampage between 7 and 9. Seems weird to justify the BF Freddy novels being separate canon because of the (debunked) BF Jason profile not considering anything past 8 canon. It's like we're saying they somehow take place in the same verse, but at the same time the whole justification for them taking place aside from the main ones hinges on them NOT taking place in the same verse.

No, it's quite literal. There's other stuff about how his evil presence was passively wiping out a dreamer's essence and how he can't die so long as negative emotions exist. Funnily enough, Jason has a very similar statement in one of the novels that allows him to teleport and grants type 8 immo

And the biggest troll in horror can be expected not to embellish the details of his death?

I don't see the problem since it's about the greater cosmology itself rather than a single universe, and Evil Dead has embraced the multiverse concept with its several comics and games.

I see it unreasonable for HKR to not be canon since it can just be a prequel to part 9

 

[Raincutter]

I see it unreasonable for HKR to not be canon since it can just be a prequel to part 9

that's what I said, it has the most backing to be canon imo since it explains how he became nationally infamous in 9

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

that's what I said, it has the most backing to be canon imo since it explains how he became nationally infamous in 9

Ye

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

Bump

 

[RedReaper616]

Bump. (Interested to see how this plays out).

 

[OrangeFR]

I think this is pretty cool, I agree

 

[RedReaper616]

Seems like flowery language to me, typical "wow he's the embodiment of evil!!!" type of stuff

Some other stuff on this within the blog posted here because I find it interesting.

“Freddy is the highest evolutionary state of evil in the same way that a human being is beyond an insect on the evolutionary tree.”

“He’s an accumulation of every negative emotion that humans are capable of feeling. Every negative action, word, thought and imagination are all contained within his twisted hellspawn of a soul. With him basically being the storage tank of negative emotions that exist and don’t exist, he can never really be killed for good and will have an unlimited supply of power at his disposal as long as people keep having these negative emotions and continue to have bad dreams.”

(EDIT: Also, the context of the scan in the OP is Freddy explaining his powers, apparently. Take that as you will considering he can be an unreliable narrator.)

Conversely, the blog mentions other statements that read a lot more Hyperbole in comparison.

“He’s called the Boogeyman, the Incarnation of Fear…” and “Craven went about creating the Evil Embodiment of our Worst Nightmares.”

It seems to me there’s a stark difference, and if anything seems to be well supported. The debate on canonicity is beyond me, because I have no idea what is and isn’t canon to NoES—Especially since Horror Franchises have pretty infamously bad continuity. I mean, people in this thread are citing how certain bits of Freddy’s Nightmares must be non-canon because of the backstories being contradictory, but Freddy’s backstory was getting changed and retconned multiple times over per film. From a mere Vengeful Spirit after his death to the Son of One Hundred Maniacs (he simply born bad and is implied to run on ESK Dream Power and Souls) to Dream Demons, why and how he’s the way he is has changed drastically over time. I’m not saying they’re wrong, either—A contradiction is a contradiction and it’s fully possible that the show wasn’t intended to be more than a non-canon spinoff, but I do think it should be noted contradictory information isn’t a true smoking gun because Freddy’s lore is an absolutely inconsistent mess even within his own films, let alone things in his extended material.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Freddy has an eclipse feat which I already calculated.

In actuality this calculation would work better.

 

[Raincutter]

Freddy has an eclipse feat which I already calculated.

In actuality this calculation would work better.

Multi Continental Freddy after all that would be tragic

 

[Random-Helper323]

Multi Continental Freddy after all that would be tragic

It's a supporting feat at worst and if for whatever reason those star feats and infinite 3-A statements are rejected 6-A is a whole lot better than where he is now.

 

[HorrorHistory]

Bump

 

[StrikerIsJustStriker]

It's a supporting feat at worst and if for whatever reason those star feats and infinite 3-A statements are rejected 6-A is a whole lot better than where he is now.

Where's the debunk that the staffs rejected the Infinite 3-A statements?

 

[Raincutter]

Where's the debunk that the staffs rejected the Infinite 3-A statements?

the "debunk" comes from them not knowing the cosmology or trying to take the lowest possible interpretation

 

[StrikerIsJustStriker]

the "debunk" comes from them not knowing the cosmology or trying to take the lowest possible interpretation

Ye. Vsbw staffs can't do anything about them but either accept them or debunk them with actual reasonings (which they can't)

 

[Random-Helper323]

Where's the debunk that the staffs rejected the Infinite 3-A statements?

Rejections often don't need a debunk. All I did was calc a feat from the novel, so I'm the wrong person to ask.

All the same, the calcs of the eclipse were both accepted and so you have an easy way to make a 6-A upgrade thread for Freddy based on that. It's a step in a higher direction if nothing else.

 

[StrikerIsJustStriker]

Rejections often don't need a debunk. All I did was calc a feat from the novel, so I'm the wrong person to ask.

All the same, the calcs of the eclipse were both accepted and so you have an easy way to make a 6-A upgrade thread for Freddy based on that. It's a step in a higher direction if nothing else.

Rejections does need a debunk lol. They don't have authorities to reject the statements without a valid reason or debunk.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

the "debunk" comes from them not knowing the cosmology

This one not only barely had any discussion, but was posted on the wrong board (Which very likely decreased the amount of people who would see the thread)

Additionally, Calc Group Members don't have voting rights.

Personally, i think the statements by themselves are fine, their canonicity is something to be debated, though

or trying to take the lowest possible interpretation

This thread is from more than 5 years ago, plus, the only member who still is a staff (AKA, @Qawsedf234) explicitely agreed on cosmic stuff

I don't think i have enough knowledge on the franchise to properly give my thoughts on the thread itself, but most of the previous threads that "rejected" Cosmic Freddy were neither concluded or even were discussed at all

 

[Random-Helper323]

Rejections does need a debunk lol. They don't have authorities to reject the statements without a valid reason or debunk.

I wish that was true.
Anyway, I'd suggest starting with the small upgrades, including the eclipse feat. Jumping from Tier 7 to 3-A is harder than taking smaller steps. Some staff will be more hesitant solely because of the huge tier jump.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Clearly i agree with this

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dream Manipulation - Duh.

what the **** do you mean Freddy doesn't have Dream Manipulation

(you absolutely need to provide evidence for this but this is so obvious that I can and will sign off on it even without seeing your chosen evidence).

Now then.

Conceptual Manipulation - This is from the Black Flame novels (canon). The Astral Plane is a realm of abstract concepts. Freddy has less power over this realm, but still was able to brute force his way into the dimension

Your second link doesn't work, but taking your presentation of it as literally, just entering the dimension doesn't seem to imply legitimate concept manipulation to me. He's not altering them or using them, he's just going into the place where they are. I'd like to know the background information on the first scan as well- if this is a PDF, it would be handy to read it. It kinda reads like this is concepts as in, the deeper consciousness of a person?

Neutral for now.

Pocket Reality Manipulation - He did this the FvJvA comic and created another inside someone in the non canon marvel comic

Dislike that this looks like director's commentary. Can I see the comic? I lean towards agree, I just think the evidence is a little light.

Neutral for now.

Causality Manipulation - Demonstrated here, and here.

...In a limited sense, yes. This is an extension of the "if you die in your dream you die in real life" thing, except things change retroactively. So this hinges on Freddy's dream manipulation, isn't total, and can be functionally combated by the dreamer. Bad outcomes can be negated or mitigated based on their actions within the dream. Good outcomes can even be achieved. Still, I approve of the ability, yes.

I agree.

Black Hole Creation - Demonstrated here.

She said like a black hole, it otherwise does not display qualities of a black hole. Disagree with this one.

I disagree.

Plot Manipulation - Did this to the writer of FvJvA, he also directs the episodes of his own TV series and interacts with the actors. On a meta level, this could take place within the New Nightmare verse not the real "real" world.

I interpret this as more "Be afraid, Freddy's real" wink chuckle than "Freddy controls the media in which he appears". Neutral on it for now, would prefer better/more evidence.

Neutral for now.

Exrtrasensory Perception - Sensed a woman across dimensions

yep

I agree.

Fate Manipulation - should be no less skilled than Jacob.

Gonna have to give me more to work with than this. Edit after reading later in the thread: but Jacob literally beats him at this game, though. So he is less skilled than Jacob.

I disagree.

Abstract Existence Type 2 - Embodiment of hate,

Is this not like, directly and explicitly contradictory to the movies? This being a book, I'd take it as secondary canon, unless provided with a reason not to.

Neutral for now.

Existence Erasure - The ending of NoeS, in comic form here, too.

It's been awhile since I've watched Nightmare on Elm Street, but I don't seem to recall it being EE; in fact, I originally interpreted it as one of Freddy's layered dreams thing, he was just ******* with the protagonist.

Looking at the comic, it is functionally the same thing.

Nothing confirms it is existence erasure (he disappears, but that could be a lot of things) and nothing suggests he isn't just messing with the victim. Nothing stops him from just resurrecting, as his profile currently permits. In any instance, even if he was erased, he clearly didn't resist it. I don't see any interpretation of these that makes him resistant.

I disagree.

Fate Manipulation - Jacob willed a fate for him which he eventually overcame

He doesn't resist it, nor am I certain I'd call it fate manip. Without knowing much of the surrounding pages, it seems more like Freddy just swaps places with the souls. "Fate" is just a word used. You mentioned Jacob previously, so I'm willing to wager there's greater context here supporting the fate manip argument.

Neutral for now.

Power Nullification - After being depowered by the Dream Demons in Nightmare Warriors, he still is implied to have survived his origin being erased

Wrong scan?

Anti-Matter - Survived Anti-Freddy, who was designed to destroy him as anti-matter does regular matter.

This is literally not anti-matter. They just evoke it for metaphor. Someday VSBW users will recognize these.

I disagree.

Energy Manipulation - Here.

In what way does he resist energy manipulation here?

Mind Manipulation - Here.

The first bit isn't Mind Manipulation. If Jacob is telepathic, then that would be the ability- the ability to discern thoughts. Otherwise, there is no power to lying to children (unfortunate as that may be).

Later comics seem to support this. Resistance to Telepathy, then, would be the accurate thing. It may also be a limitation of Jacob's- he knows how people work. Freddy is no longer a person in any normal sense.

I disagree, but agree with possible Resistance to Telepathy.

Dream Manipulation - Duh.

Oh, wait, this is resistance to dream manipulation. No, you definitely do need to prove that.

Base Freddy
Base Freddy implied he could blow up an Earth within the Dream World rather casually, and he also manipulates what are likely dozens of stars to fly at massive speeds (5-B to 4-A)
He turned into the moon in this novel to fellate a girl, and in this dubiously canon graphic novel. Krueger Curse is written by an actor from NoES 5. 5-C?
Created creatures that ate the Sun (4-C)
He has other feats of manipulating celestial bodies, but you get the gist.

First clip is incredibly short but doesn't show anything concretely implying Tier 5/4.

The moon thing is dubious, because it's literally a crescent moon. There's already a level of divide between it and the actual moon. I'd rather more concrete feats be used, this should not be the tiersetter by any means.

The 4-C feat is questionable again. This being a dream, it isn't an inherent truth that celestial objects retain their size. In the 4-C feat, the sun is eaten by clouds, and is made of liquid (implicitly straight up lemonade?). It's departed significantly from the actual sun, enough to make this not a tiersetter imo. The only bit worth mentioning is that the world is plunged into darkness once it is eaten, but that could justifiably be another ability. So, bring the other celestial body feats, preferably much more explicit ones.

It's debatable whether he scales to the entirety of the dream realm, but he should definitely scale to individual dreams as he has several statements of being master, king, having the laws and physics of the realm at his beck and call. Individual dreams have statements of being infinite, and Freddy himself stretched a road to infinity. High 3-A for individual dreams, but there's a case to be made that he scales higher into the cosmology as he has merged several dreams together (I believe he does this one of the films as well), he also seemingly resides over the Dream Pool, which contains dreams from past, present, and future and considers it "little," and seemingly affected all of existence with a shout or laugh Low 2-C for merging several dreams, 2-B for reigning over a finite, but huge amount of dreams if he scales to the Dream Realm entirely

Joanna is not a reliable source, nor are the statements here really concrete; she thinks they seem endless, which is common writer verbiage for "goes farther than the person can see". Disagree with dreams being High 3-A/tier 2. The dream pool thing is worth considering- I have no idea if it's possible to quantify, but he is explicitly amped by the dreams of a town's population, so there is something there. He's at least higher than he is tiered at currently, I think.

A "likely higher", perhaps.

His travel speed should also scale above Bekka, who could fly to a point farther away than the outermost part of the galaxy, MFTL+. He also apparently threw this guy into another dream entirely. I wouldn't ordinarily use ads, but it can be used imo with how meta Freddy is

No. The first feat is not only explicitly not in a physical realm (it's the Astral Plane), there's also no time there, and nobody actually went there- she directed her consciousness to a place described as "distant" but has no actual set location. No speed can be gained from that. As for the other guy, we can see how fast he's moving, and it clearly isn't MFTL+. The idea of using an ad kinda sucks, but given it is Freddy Krueger, who has evidence of playing with meta stuff like this, I'd allow it, if it were a legitimate feat, I think.

Necronomicon
Necronomicon Freddy is above the Dream Demons, as it is stated here he is above them.
The Necronomicon was used by the Dark Ones to rule all of creation per a tie in game taking place post-AOD, so this would scale him over the entire cosmology, Whether this is usable or not, I won't say, but both Evil Dead, F13, and NOES share a cosmology, and Rose states there are infinite timelines. A scientist who studied the Necronomicon in FvJvA also stated it has "boundless" power Multiversal+. A lower interpretation comes from this guy, who states that the verse uses Many Worlds theory. for a extremely large, but finite number of parallel universes. Maybe he just got it wrong.

Given the nature of parallel universes, and Freddy all but being God, with the Necronomicon. There's a case for him scaling above Cthulhu and Damballa from the Dynamite Comics Ash series, the latter of whom created the universes.

What's the source on the first scan? Curious, more than anything.

You need to link the evidence from the tie-in game if you're going to use it as part of your argument.

The evidence provided, even with the evidence requested, does not seem to support 2-A. It suggests Freddy rules over infinite or a lot of timelines, but not that he can casually destroy them or whatever. Ruling something does not scale you to its entire structure.

Not speaking on the Evil Dead stuff, because it's such an insane far reach and I'm not sure how we treat those crossovers currently- this is entirely steeped in that, and whether we would assume obscure NoES lore would take into account obscure Evil Dead lore. For what it's worth, I don't see there being any evidence supporting him scaling up from Cthulhu, given he just rules what they created, but. Still.

So, straight up disagree with the AP upgrades and speed upgrade.

Base Freddy's AP should be Varies since his powers fluctuate based on belief, the amount of souls he's absorbed, fear, etc, anywhere from High Hypoverse level (At his weakest, completely failed to affect an ordinary person), to Multi-Solar System level (moved several stars, created creatures that ate the sun, etc.), and At his peak High Universal level / Low Multiversal / Multiversal (Depending on whether we scale him to his individual dreams, multiple dreams, or the Dream World entirely). His durability should be "nerfed" to Varies since his form in Dreams is essentially an avatar to mess around with, He can go from trading blows with ordinary people, to fighting Jason, to being celestial bodies,

MFTL+ travel speed

Necronomicon Freddy is either 2-B (Many Worlds theory) or 2-A (Rose statement), It's reasonable that the first guy just got it wrong.

And ofc his powers and abilities need to be updated, I probably missed a lot, but that should be the major things.

*Jason/Ash scaling to him is a combination of Freddy holding back, PIS, and outliers for 2 popular characters to be relevant.

I agree with a Variable rating, but not with High Hypoverse level (it would be 10-C, and very low into it) to whatever his current rating is (barring the bringing forth of more explicitly large-sized celestial object feats). Disagree with the tier 2 peak stuff, as well. I agree with this variable rating extending to his durability.

I disagree with MFTL+ travel speed.

I disagree with the buff to Necronomicon tier.

For each change to P&A, I gave explicit agree/disagree above- no room for misinterpretation.

 

[Armorchompy]

Having read through this, it's clear Krueger's profile is very bare bones. He's missing a lot of powers and very likely scales way higher.
Disclaimer: Most of this is canon.

A fan website is not an acceptable way to determine canonicity, and neither is approval by the IP owner (because literally all official media has to be approved by the IP owner).

In addition to this you should source non-obvious scans, it's hard to judge the validity of something if it's just a page of text and I don't even know what it's from.

*Jason/Ash scaling to him is a combination of Freddy holding back, PIS, and outliers for 2 popular characters to be relevant.

I'm not going to comment on most of the thread yet (most of my opinions roughly align with Bambu's) but I find it pretty questionable to claim that the base context of an entire trilogy of crossovers is entirely relying on "PIS" and other such things. I would be much more prone to believing that alleged cosmic feats are the outliers, if the typical portrayal of the character contrasts them.

That or Ash is 1-A or whatever, I don't mind that

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

what the **** do you mean Freddy doesn't have Dream Manipulation

He does, though, that's the first ability listed on his Dream World key. OP probably didn't perceive it

 

[Raincutter]

@Mr. Bambu Thank you for the effortful reply

Your second link doesn't work, but taking your presentation of it as literally, just entering the dimension doesn't seem to imply legitimate concept manipulation to me. He's not altering them or using them, he's just going into the place where they are. I'd like to know the background information on the first scan as well- if this is a PDF, it would be handy to read it. It kinda reads like this is concepts as in, the deeper consciousness of a person?

Here is the scan. As you can see, the whole place is constructed from abstract concepts so cutting his way into the dimension should be conceptual manip

Dislike that this looks like director's commentary. Can I see the comic? I lean towards agree, I just think the evidence is a little light.

Here. Springwood inside Crystal Lake.

She said like a black hole, it otherwise does not display qualities of a black hole. Disagree with this one.

Ok mb. It's actually Portal Creation as the black hole led to the real world

I interpret this as more "Be afraid, Freddy's real" wink chuckle than "Freddy controls the media in which he appears". Neutral on it for now, would prefer better/more evidence.

I disagree, I think hosting his own series is different than just fourth wall nods to the audience. There is also this, Freddy knows a character is minor.

Gonna have to give me more to work with than this. Edit after reading later in the thread: but Jacob literally beats him at this game, though. So he is less skilled than Jacob.

Freddy does beat him when he's further amped by the souls of all of Freddy's victims in the Nightmare Warriors, though he was amped by the Necronomicon

It's been awhile since I've watched Nightmare on Elm Street, but I don't seem to recall it being EE; in fact, I originally interpreted it as one of Freddy's layered dreams thing, he was just ******* with the protagonist.

Looking at the comic, it is functionally the same thing.

Nothing confirms it is existence erasure (he disappears, but that could be a lot of things) and nothing suggests he isn't just messing with the victim. Nothing stops him from just resurrecting, as his profile currently permits. In any instance, even if he was erased, he clearly didn't resist it. I don't see any interpretation of these that makes him resistant.

I guess you could count it as resurrection, though Freddy usually needs external forces to bring him back especially early on. The script for the film doesn't say whether it's a layered dream or not, it's ambiguous.

Wrong scan?

Here. Context is the Dream Demons strip Freddy of his powers, Ash shoots him dead, and his corpse goes flying into a time vortex created by the Necronomicon. His origin is rewritten so he's never let out of jail, and it's implied he somehow still survived this. Could this be resistance to fate manip? Acausality?

Oh, wait, this is resistance to dream manipulation. No, you definitely do need to prove that.

This is all of Nightmare on Elm Street 3. Lucid Dreamers try to fight Freddy and die.
"It may be your dream, but it's my rules!"

First clip is incredibly short but doesn't show anything concretely implying Tier 5/4.

The moon thing is dubious, because it's literally a crescent moon. There's already a level of divide between it and the actual moon. I'd rather more concrete feats be used, this should not be the tiersetter by any means.

The 4-C feat is questionable again. This being a dream, it isn't an inherent truth that celestial objects retain their size. In the 4-C feat, the sun is eaten by clouds, and is made of liquid (implicitly straight up lemonade?). It's departed significantly from the actual sun, enough to make this not a tiersetter imo. The only bit worth mentioning is that the world is plunged into darkness once it is eaten, but that could justifiably be another ability. So, bring the other celestial body feats, preferably much more explicit ones.

The first clip you can see stars moving in the background. And it being a dream doesn't mean anything since dreams don't function the same in the NoES verse. Dreams are endless alternate universes contained within the Dream Pool, which in itself is only a small section of the greater Dream World, which is also called bigger than ours. So the burden of proof would be on you to show that it's not what it's called.

Joanna is not a reliable source, nor are the statements here really concrete; she thinks they seem endless, which is common writer verbiage for "goes farther than the person can see". Disagree with dreams being High 3-A/tier 2. The dream pool thing is worth considering- I have no idea if it's possible to quantify, but he is explicitly amped by the dreams of a town's population, so there is something there. He's at least higher than he is tiered at currently, I think.

A "likely higher", perhaps.

The first scan has the narrator call it endless and Freddy call it infinity. Wes Craven called them boundless. And here's one more.

No. The first feat is not only explicitly not in a physical realm (it's the Astral Plane), there's also no time there, and nobody actually went there- she directed her consciousness to a place described as "distant" but has no actual set location. No speed can be gained from that. As for the other guy, we can see how fast he's moving, and it clearly isn't MFTL+. The idea of using an ad kinda sucks, but given it is Freddy Krueger, who has evidence of playing with meta stuff like this, I'd allow it, if it were a legitimate feat, I think.

The second image states its at the core of ones soul (hence the emotional stuff) and at the same time farther than the outermost galaxy. The end of the second image also states there is movement which by definition requires distance. It doesn't say there's no time, but that it held any objective meaning there. It still uses words like soon and "several moments" to describe the action.

What's the source on the first scan? Curious, more than anything.

You need to link the evidence from the tie-in game if you're going to use it as part of your argument.

The evidence provided, even with the evidence requested, does not seem to support 2-A. It suggests Freddy rules over infinite or a lot of timelines, but not that he can casually destroy them or whatever. Ruling something does not scale you to its entire structure.

Not speaking on the Evil Dead stuff, because it's such an insane far reach and I'm not sure how we treat those crossovers currently- this is entirely steeped in that, and whether we would assume obscure NoES lore would take into account obscure Evil Dead lore. For what it's worth, I don't see there being any evidence supporting him scaling up from Cthulhu, given he just rules what they created, but. Still.

So, straight up disagree with the AP upgrades and speed upgrade.

The source is writers commentary here.
As explained above dreams themselves are universes within the greater dream world, this scan shows he can merge dreams casually. So he "rules" the greater Dream World where dreams are housed, which may or may not mean he scales to it, but it's clear that he scales above multiple individual dreams. To my knowledge, VsBattles counts merging realms as uni-multi.

 

[Raincutter]

A fan website is not an acceptable way to determine canonicity, and neither is approval by the IP owner (because literally all official media has to be approved by the IP owner).

The novels take place between FvJ and FvJvA with Jacob, who was 10 in his film appearance, being an adult in the novels and his mother still being alive. The novels with Jacob take place between Nightmare 6 and Freddy vs Jason since Jacob is grown and his mother is still alive. The comics are more ambiguous and you could probably go off the publication date or place them between Nightmare 5 and 6 where Freddy recovered from defeat and dominated Springwood for a few years.

In addition to this you should source non-obvious scans, it's hard to judge the validity of something if it's just a page of text and I don't even know what it's from.

I'm not going to comment on most of the thread yet (most of my opinions roughly align with Bambu's) but I find it pretty questionable to claim that the base context of an entire trilogy of crossovers is entirely relying on "PIS" and other such things. I would be much more prone to believing that alleged cosmic feats are the outliers, if the typical portrayal of the character contrasts them.

That or Ash is 1-A or whatever, I don't mind that

Well, I'm still working on finding out where Ash scales, but most of Jason's stuff is 9-B, with a few 9-A feats here and there, and maybe a 6-B feat in his Uber form and a feat of surviving a black hole. Even disregarding Freddy's cosmic feats, he has what he currently scales to, launching a house into space, which also shows him manipulating the Earth's continents, he has the feat of creating a small planet of junk, which previously scaled him to multi cityblock, various feats of creating storms, creating earthquakes by screaming, creating large fissures, etc, so Freddy not oneshotting both these guys while not holding back, even being conservative with where you scale him, is plot.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ok mb. It's actually Portal Creation as the black hole led to the real world

Portal Creation tracks.

I disagree, I think hosting his own series is different than just fourth wall nods to the audience. There is also this, Freddy knows a character is minor.

This is just more 4th Wall Awareness.

Freddy does beat him when he's further amped by the souls of all of Freddy's victims in the Nightmare Warriors, though he was amped by the Necronomicon

Does Freddy at any point control fate, because... I just don't understand the scaling to some random kid's abilities. Even if he did beat him (you don't provide proof of that), why would he have his abilities? Even just in the scans provided, Freddy needs the kid because the kid can do things Freddy can't, they aren't equivalent beings.

I guess you could count it as resurrection, though Freddy usually needs external forces to bring him back especially early on. The script for the film doesn't say whether it's a layered dream or not, it's ambiguous.

For now, then, I disagree with the interpretation that this is existence erasure, much less a resistance to it.

Here. Context is the Dream Demons strip Freddy of his powers, Ash shoots him dead, and his corpse goes flying into a time vortex created by the Necronomicon. His origin is rewritten so he's never let out of jail, and it's implied he somehow still survived this. Could this be resistance to fate manip? Acausality?

I just literally do not have enough to evaluate that. The comic doesn't tell me anything, really.

This is all of Nightmare on Elm Street 3. Lucid Dreamers try to fight Freddy and die.
"It may be your dream, but it's my rules!"

That's not resistance, he's just better at it.

The first clip you can see stars moving in the background. And it being a dream doesn't mean anything since dreams don't function the same in the NoES verse. Dreams are endless alternate universes contained within the Dream Pool, which in itself is only a small section of the greater Dream World, which is also called bigger than ours. So the burden of proof would be on you to show that it's not what it's called.

I'm not debating it's name, nor is the burden of proof on me to provide evidence. The burden is on me to evaluate whether the evidence you provide is sufficient for the upgrades you suggest- the role I possess is judge, not lawyer. As for the stars moving, I would take that as more "the character is moving so perspective is shifting" rather than "Freddy is inexplicably causing these stars to move for no reason".

The first scan has the narrator call it endless and Freddy call it infinity. Wes Craven called them boundless. And here's one more.

I'm aware of the words used, I read the scans. These words do not always mean "endless" or "boundless" or what have you in the sense that we as powerscalers use them- a "boundless world of dreams", for example, to refer to these new scans, reads to me more like "limitless" than "spatially infinite". None of these scans use the words in such a way that makes it seem to me to mean "dreams are spatially infinite".

The second image states its at the core of ones soul (hence the emotional stuff) and at the same time farther than the outermost galaxy. The end of the second image also states there is movement which by definition requires distance. It doesn't say there's no time, but that it held any objective meaning there. It still uses words like soon and "several moments" to describe the action.

Yes, I read that bit. It uses phrases for time not in the standard sense- they reference this explicitly. Still. Nobody physically moves in these scans. Not a single ounce of movement is had. Her awareness goes to some strange astral place, that's all.

The source is writers commentary here.
As explained above dreams themselves are universes within the greater dream world, this scan shows he can merge dreams casually. So he "rules" the greater Dream World where dreams are housed, which may or may not mean he scales to it, but it's clear that he scales above multiple individual dreams. To my knowledge, VsBattles counts merging realms as uni-multi.

Acknowledging that I have rejected the idea that dreams are universes, what makes it clear he can merge multiple individual dreams? It wouldn't be uni-multi, or tier 2 at all, but this may constitute an upgrade if you can prove these claims concretely.

 

[ShionAH]

what the **** do you mean Freddy doesn't have Dream Manipulation

He has it on the profile, Idk what the OP is trying to do

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He has it on the profile, Idk what the OP is trying to do

No, I understand now, the OP has it as Resistance to Dream Manipulation, it's just sorted out weird. I saw that and was greatly confused for awhile.

 

[Armorchompy]

The novels take place between FvJ and FvJvA with Jacob, who was 10 in his film appearance, being an adult in the novels and his mother still being alive. The novels with Jacob take place between Nightmare 6 and Freddy vs Jason since Jacob is grown and his mother is still alive. The comics are more ambiguous and you could probably go off the publication date or place them between Nightmare 5 and 6 where Freddy recovered from defeat and dominated Springwood for a few years.

I don't really think "a character from the movies appears in this side material" is strong evidence of it being canon.

Speaking of which I actually think there's an argument the Plot Manipulation stuff disproves the comics' canonicity, we know New Nightmare is a thing and that has very different mechanics for how Nightmare on Elm Street interfaces with the "real" world (and Freddy himself is very much just a fictional character there, just one well-liked by the demon that takes his form)

Well, I'm still working on finding out where Ash scales, but most of Jason's stuff is 9-B, with a few 9-A feats here and there, and maybe a 6-B feat in his Uber form and a feat of surviving a black hole. Even disregarding Freddy's cosmic feats, he has what he currently scales to, launching a house into space, which also shows him manipulating the Earth's continents, he has the feat of creating a small planet of junk, which previously scaled him to multi cityblock, various feats of creating storms, creating earthquakes by screaming, creating large fissures, etc, so Freddy not oneshotting both these guys while not holding back, even being conservative with where you scale him, is plot.

Ash is most definitely just like 9-B at most 9-A, as far as I know, I was joking about that. It is not however necessarily PIS, nothing here proves Freddy's physicals scale to his reality warping, and in fact he's pretty consistently portrayed to be fairly easy to harm, albeit not permanently. Indeed as far as the profile is concerned, his 7-A AP doesn't scale to his other stats.

 

[Raincutter]

I don't really think "a character from the movies appears in this side material" is strong evidence of it being canon.

The wikis canon policy for f13 has been that secondary materials fine as long as it doesnt explicitly contradict primary canon, hence fvjva and jason having comic feats so Freddys novels should be fine

Speaking of which I actually think there's an argument the Plot Manipulation stuff disproves the comics' canonicity, we know New Nightmare is a thing and that has very different mechanics for how Nightmare on Elm Street interfaces with the "real" world (and Freddy himself is very much just a fictional character there, just one well-liked by the demon that takes his form)

I don’t understand how that disproves anything. If you think New Nightmare contains NoES then that versions probably 5D or Outer depending on how you think that stuff works.

The rules of his powers change in every appearance anyways

Ash is most definitely just like 9-B at most 9-A, as far as I know, I was joking about that. It is not however necessarily PIS, nothing here proves Freddy's physicals scale to his reality warping, and in fact he's pretty consistently portrayed to be fairly easy to harm, albeit not permanently. Indeed as far as the profile is concerned, his 7-A AP doesn't scale to his other stats.

Yeah but both scale to his overall AP. Ash tanks an amped blast from him, Jason at times is outright stated to be unstoppable compared to Freddy

 

[Iceking_24]

The TV show is definitely not canon. I've watched it, the plot is completely different.

That means literally nothing. If it contradicts something in Cannon then sure but in every episode that I’ve seen that’s not the case

 

[Iceking_24]

We treat those as an alternate canon, if Jason's Black Flame novels are anything to go by (I'd assume so, since Freddy and Jason share a verse)


Seems like flowery language to me, typical "wow he's the embodiment of evil!!!" type of stuff


Freddy hosts most of it, but he also hosts the first episode, where he tells his backstory. And his backstory that he tells is completely different from his canon one.


It's worth noting that only certain Evil Dead comics share a canon with Ft13 and NoES, not the mainline canon. So I'm unsure about using a scan from the television series to back up this claim

Some of this seems fine, but I don't agree that the novels are canon (which is seemingly what the wiki agrees with at the moment, if Jason's stuff is anything to go by), and know that the TV show definitely isn't canon, so I disagree with using things from those sources. They can get their own profiles, just not be added to the main one

His backstory does not contradict anything in the films