Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Guacamolefletcher]

Me when the story has repeatedly told us through feats and recognition Heavenly Restriction havers are strong asf and can be comparable to the special grades of the series (I'm asking for Low 7-C, the tier at which we have numerous Culling Games characters at and more)

Maki just tanked a Black Flash, what more does she need?

I mean, TBFH, she might cap at Toji level, who knows

 

[GunshyFever]

I mean, TBFH, she might cap at Toji level, who knows

Maki should just be stronger than Toji atp

 

[Arkenis]

Dw bro I'm in full support of Low 7-C HR, but I don't think that black flash alone is enough to make the cut as well as the hand full of anti-feats for it from that one CRT you made, but honestly HR users being known for their strength should bump them up there idk tho

It was never just the BF, I've offered numerous reasons for why Maki and Toji should be L7C. What anti feats?

 

[GunshyFever]

What anti feats?

The ones Sundagamer brought up in your thread

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

It was never just the BF, I've offered numerous reasons for why Maki and Toji should be L7C. What anti feats?

The anti feat IIRC was that post RCT Gojo damaged him with red, and Gojo only became stronger than Geto after the 1 year timeskip, so he’s grade 1 level, and 2x that with red.

I’d say this could just mean Post RCT Gojo is just Gojo + mental amp and he lost it, hence after 1 year training he became stronger than the grade 1 level sorcerer

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Also I will say that Geto being in the grade 1 spot in the chart probably doesn’t mean much, considering special grade doesn’t mean power, it means the ability to take over a country and whatnot, so it’s probably ok to say it’s not a heavy anti feat

In general, I don’t like the stuff like “should be comparable to another special grade sorcerer,” like that stuff doesn’t seem valid to me

 

[SuperStar]

Powerscaling beef is crazy y’all

 

[Arkenis]

The anti feat IIRC was that post RCT Gojo damaged him with red, and Gojo only became stronger than Geto after the 1 year timeskip, so he’s grade 1 level, and 2x that with red.

I’d say this could just mean Post RCT Gojo is just Gojo + mental amp and he lost it, hence after 1 year training he became stronger than the grade 1 level sorcerer

Or Gojo's just L7C

In general, I don’t like the stuff like “should be comparable to another special grade sorcerer,” like that stuff doesn’t seem valid to me

Who says 'should be comparable'? Every special grade has interactions with one another or scaling to link them above or to another. Yuta and Geto fought, Yuki and Kenjaku fought, Gojo and Geto used to be the strongest together. There is no should here, I've always thought Teen Gojo's scaling was off considering he had no rival yet we're rating him as only mcb, plus this mcb doesn't come from anywhere calc wise. It's just not consistent in the story to say Toji and Maki aren't physically on the level of someone like Yuta, mind you the same guy who was getting knocked around by Geto and later on was struggling against Ryu.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Who says 'should be comparable'? Every special grade has interactions with one another or scaling to link them above or to another. Yuta and Geto fought, Yuki and Kenjaku fought, Gojo and Geto used to be the strongest together. There is no should here, I've always thought Teen Gojo's scaling was off considering he had no rival yet we're rating him as only mcb, plus this mcb doesn't come from anywhere calc wise. It's just not consistent in the story to say Toji and Maki aren't physically on the level of someone like Yuta, mind you the same guy who was getting knocked around by Geto and later on was struggling against Ryu.

IIRC this is what some CRT said about Geto and JJK0 Gojo

Or Gojo's just L7C

I don’t disagree, but then Geto needs to be at that level unless you wanna say it’s a mental amp

 

[Arkenis]

I don’t disagree, but then Geto needs to be at that level unless you wanna say it’s a mental amp

Why does it need to be a mental amp? Geto's scaling is not in physicals and his curses are never able to harm Toji or Gojo. I would say Geto's status as the strongest is due to how dangerous his ct can be and the fact he's always around Gojo, not that he can fight equal to Awakened Gojo

 

[Rosa]

Whats your take on our pages pna sections?

pna? like powers and abilities? I think they're really solid tbh, especially the cursed energy manipulation page

 

[Rosa]

Iirc he agreed with Dr Whitee and his pre-downgrade takes

I'm not active enough to know what abilities are exclusive Dr Whitee's. I disagree with his stuff about information manipulation, I think hollow purple being existence erasure deserves a "possible" rating, the conceptual stuff about the black background and white sparks is a really cool interpretation but obviously the lack of explicit acknowledgement within verse makes it something I wouldn't recommend for scaling, that's about it.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Why does it need to be a mental amp? Geto's scaling is not in physicals and his curses are never able to harm Toji or Gojo. I would say Geto's status as the strongest is due to how dangerous his ct can be and the fact he's always around Gojo, not that he can fight equal to Awakened Gojo

This is a serious misunderstanding of the hidden inventory arc. The entire narrative is they’re equals prior to Gojo getting his awakening. It’s shown and implied them fighting is a common occurrence, hence it strongly implying their combat abilities are comparable. Having a solid cursed technique has never ever ever been reason for someone being strong as ****. Yaga is never regarded as ~ anyone because he can make an army of grade 1s like panda

Every statement made by Gojo implies that Geto is 100% a viable substitute for him in vital combat situations, never a downgrade. It’s never from a place of “oh, I’d blitz and one shot every curse and Geto himself, but we’re equals because Geto got INSANE potential”

I think hollow purple being existence erasure deserves a "possible" rating

Vsbw has never been about giving EE for niche micro interpretations with little to no basis, aka giving abilities away like candy.

even if Hollow Purple had negative mass, and it colliding with positive made them cancel each other out, that’s not EE, as energy is let out. Even worse is trying to assign EE based upon “imaginary mass,” when it’s evidently “virtual mass” and just a strong energy blast, not EE like Hakai or abilities which are accepted as being EE

To sum it up: Hollow Purple has nothing setting it apart from a generic energy blast in its use and effect

 

[Rosa]

Hollow Purple had negative mass, and it colliding with positive made them cancel each other out, that’s not EE, as energy is let out.

Where's the contradiction in EE attacks also having a level of energy output? You list hakai as a valid example of EE and yet that also has an energy output to it; there can be stronger and weaker hakai blasts in DB.

Even worse is trying to assign EE based upon “imaginary mass,” when it’s evidently “virtual mass”

Literally the same kanji... If you want to argue "it could mean imaginary mass and be EE, but it could also be virtual mass" than that's fine, it's the reason why I specified it deserves a "possible" rating because it's a probable interpretation but not necessitated within the series.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Where's the contradiction in EE attacks also having a level of energy output? You list hakai as a valid example of EE and yet that also has an energy output to it; there can be stronger and weaker hakai blasts in DB.

Hakai doesn’t let out energy like the result of matter and anti matter colliding. I will say that this is also an important distinction, because it has to be the antimatter equivalent of the same particle

Literally the same kanji... If you want to argue "it could mean imaginary mass and be EE, but it could also be virtual mass" than that's fine, it's the reason why I specified it deserves a "possible" rating because it's a probable interpretation but not necessitated within the series

There is 0 basis to “imaginary mass”granting EE, nor is there a basis in universe for such a thing being the case

 

[Arkenis]

The entire narrative is they’re equals prior to Gojo getting his awakening. It’s shown and implied them fighting is a common occurrence, hence it strongly implying their combat abilities are comparable. Having a solid cursed technique has never ever ever been reason for someone being strong as ****. Yaga is never regarded as ~ anyone because he can make an army of grade 1s like panda

The whole society bases how powerful sorcerers are perceived off their ct and their control of curse energy greatly so no you're wrong on that. And Yaga was gonna be rated as a Special Grade had he told the higher ups he knew how to make an army.

Every statement made by Gojo implies that Geto is 100% a viable substitute for him in vital combat situations, never a downgrade. It’s never from a place of “oh, I’d blitz and one shot every curse and Geto himself, but we’re equals because Geto got INSANE potential”

He never implies 100%, just that "we're the strongest" and someone can be weaker but still be a good substitute. They had no clue what sorcerers would be coming either. No one said blitz? And why would he not one shot every curse Geto has? And I never said anything about potential lmao.

 

[Rosa]

Hakai doesn’t let out energy like the result of matter and anti matter colliding

What is the meaningful difference wherein one is compatible with EE whilst the other isn't?

There is 0 basis to “imaginary mass” granting EE

Really? Really??? Saying there's insufficient evidence is one thing, something I'd even be inclined to agree with given I said it's merely a "possible" rating, but saying there's ZERO evidence is just ignorant.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Really??? Saying there's insufficient evidence is one thing, something I'd even be inclined to agree with given I said it's merely a "possible" rating, but saying there's ZERO evidence is just ignorant.

Nothing in that JJK math sh*t says anything about it being existence erasure. This is like saying everyone deserves “possibly high 1-B” because there is a possibility the universe is high 1-B. This is not how possibly ratings work on VS Battles wiki.

 

[Rosa]

Nothing in that JJK math sh*t says anything about it being existence erasure. This is like saying everyone deserves “possibly high 1-B” because there is a possibility the universe is high 1-B. This is not how possibly ratings work on VS Battles wiki.

idk how that's at all analogous; I never said something merely being a possibility grants a "possible rating" and ignoring my counterevidence with strawman like this isn't helping your case.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

What is the meaningful difference wherein one is compatible with EE whilst the other isn't?

Hakai erases the existence of shir explicitly, and it explicitly leaves nothing behind. It has some type of effect, but that’s still EE, and it doesn’t leave energy behind.

Hollow purple does not do that

idk how that's at all analogous; I never said something merely being a possibility grants a "possible rating" and ignoring my counterevidence with strawman like this isn't helping your case.

I’m not ignoring shit, I’m pointing out the fact of the matter, and how some niche paper isn’t sufficient evidence to prove something on site. Get yourself accustomed with the standards please

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

The whole society bases how powerful sorcerers are perceived off their ct and their control of curse energy greatly so no you're wrong on that. And Yaga was gonna be rated as a Special Grade had he told the higher ups he knew how to make an army.

That doesn’t mean he’d be comparable to another special grade sorcerer. Your overall combat capability and ability to beat someone, aka who’s the most auspicious sorcerer, is what strength would mean in this context.

He never implies 100%, just that "we're the strongest" and someone can be weaker but still be a good substitute. They had no clue what sorcerers would be coming either. No one said blitz? And why would he not one shot every curse Geto has? And I never said anything about potential lmao.

The difference between Post RCT Gojo vs Toji and Geto is huge. Toji casually destroys and outspeeds Geto while going all out, while post RCT Gojo easily evaded Toji. It’s practically a blitz difference

 

[Rosa]

Hakai erases the existence of shir explicitly, and it explicitly leaves nothing behind. It has some type of effect, but that’s still EE, and it doesn’t leave energy behind. Hollow purple does not do that

My question wasn't "whats the difference between hakai and hollow purple", my question was about about the energy output of hollow purple is meaningfully different so that it's incompatible with what existence erasure is given your argument implies existence erasure and energy output necessarily conflict yet hakai contradicts this.

I’m not ignoring shit, I’m pointing out the fact of the matter, and how some niche paper isn’t sufficient evidence to prove something on site. Get yourself accustomed with the standards please

You realise dismissing scholarly articles and references in the verses official material of this documented phenomenon as "some niche paper" before being condescending and implying I'm not "accustomed" to the site enough to have a valid opinion is exactly you just "ignoring shit" and an ad hom fallacy?

 

[Arkenis]

Really? Really??? Saying there's insufficient evidence is one thing, something I'd even be inclined to agree with given I said it's merely a "possible" rating, but saying there's ZERO evidence is just ignorant.

Given this talks about tachyons, it also talks about how tachyons can't move slower than the speed of light, meaning you'd have to also accept Purple is FTL, do you?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

You realise dismissing scholarly articles and references in the verses official material of this documented phenomenon as "some niche paper" before being condescending and implying I'm not "accustomed" to the site enough to have a valid opinion is exactly you just "ignoring shit" and an ad hom fallacy?

its not just “dismissing a scholarly article,” it’s a niche theory which has almost no scientific consensus for it, nor does it have any practical application for a Japanese manga series. Furthermore this “tachyon” connection makes it even weaker, considering it’s accepted hollow purple is slower than Mach 2600 and that the verse has a notable cap at Mach 2600 for everyone, including top tiers like Ryomen Sukuna and Gojo, where there isn’t a 8000+x speed difference between HP and them

My question wasn't "whats the difference between hakai and hollow purple", my question was about about the energy output of hollow purple is meaningfully different so that it's incompatible with what existence erasure is given your argument implies existence erasure and energy output necessarily conflict yet hakai contradicts this.

You didn’t misunderstand my argument. It’s about how antimatter + matter = energy. The result of said interaction is producing energy, not the existence of the reactants being destroyed. Producing energy as a result is a contradiction to EE as we define it.

 

[Rosa]

its not just “dismissing a scholarly article,” it’s a niche theory which has almost no scientific consensus for it, nor does it have any practical application for a Japanese manga series.

This is the equivalent of just putting your fingers in your ear and screaming "wrong wrong wrong wrong"...

Producing energy as a result is a contradiction to EE as we define it.

Quote me where on the EE page it says "producing energy disqualifies a technique from being EE".

 

[Arkenis]

If we were to grant Purple as possible ee, we'd also be granting ce can interact with tachyons too btw

And I still don't know why Purple hasn't been accepted as at least matter manip for Gojo.

 

[Rosa]

If we were to grant Purple as possible ee, we'd also be granting ce can interact with tachyons too btw

We'd also need to give advanced CE users (or at the very least Gojo and Sukuna) resistance to EE given they can survive HP via reinforcement

 

[Arkenis]

We'd also need to give advanced CE users (or at the very least Gojo and Sukuna) resistance to EE given they can survive HP via reinforcement

"We'd also need to buff the verse, given Gege and all" I like your style

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

This is the equivalent of just putting your fingers in your ear and screaming "wrong wrong wrong wrong"...

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t use niche theories with little connection to series to grant abilities like this

Quote me where on the EE page it says "producing energy disqualifies a technique from being EE".

Producing energy from transmuting something?

Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind

Energy is something, given mass = energy. EE doesn’t exist irl. Medical machines which fire positrons aren’t accepted as EE, change the standards if you want

 

[Rosa]

"Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind"
Energy is something, given mass = energy

This doesn't prove what you want it to prove. By reducing something to its constituent parts it's referring to breaking matter up into smaller pieces, not leaving behind energy; hence why hakai (which erases matter and leaves the energy conversion of it behind as an explosive blast) is still viable for EE and not merely transmutation. Furthermore, Hollow Purple wouldn't be converting the mass itself into energy, it'll be erasing mass with its own energy output (Gojo's energy output), so even if I were to accept this interpretation of EE it still wouldn't even fulfil the claim you made.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

By reducing something to its constituent parts it's referring to breaking matter up into smaller pieces, not leaving behind energy; hence why hakai (which erases matter and leaves the energy conversion of it behind as an explosive blast)

It doesn’t convert the matter into an explosion, it has the explosion as a separate quality.

Hakai doesn’t make someone explode, it reduces them to nothing.

Furthermore, Hollow Purple wouldn't be converting the mass itself into energy, it'll be erasing mass with its own energy output (Gojo's energy output), so even if I were to accept this interpretation of EE it still wouldn't even fulfil the claim you made.

this isn’t what the scientific stuff suggests, even. Also this would be a violation of the law of conservation of energy IRL, so such a crackpot theory isn’t getting accepted the way you’re claiming. Please get yourself accustomed with the standards

 

[Rosa]

It doesn’t convert the matter into an explosion, it has the explosion as a separate quality.

"when matter is destroyed it releases heaps of energy" - Beerus, describing hakai
The explosion is from the erasure aspect, that's undeniable, but it's acceptable within VSBW standards because something having an energy output doesn't conflict with it being EE like you're trying to claim.

this isn’t what the scientific stuff suggests, even.

Because the scientific papers aren't about how CTs work, they're about how imaginary mass functions and I'm using them as supplementary evidence in explaining the CT. Me mentioning qualities of the series, such as HP having a CE output and therefore an energy output, isn't me contradicting the citation in any way.

Also this would be a violation of the law of conservation of energy IRL

How? Gojo releases energy, energy erases matter, energy dissipates as it does so

Please get yourself accustomed with the standards

Yet another condescending remark. Let's keep a tally of this, yea?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

"when matter is destroyed it releases heaps of energy" - Beerus, describing hakai
The explosion is from the erasure aspect, that's undeniable, but it's acceptable within VSBW standards because something having an energy output doesn't conflict with it being EE like you're trying to claim.

You just made a solid argument to downgrade manga Hakai .

Aside from that, the difference is the OG matter is “destroyed” not converted into energy. Matter + antimatter converts both into their energy equivalent, they’re not erased from existence

 

[Rosa]

You just made a solid argument to downgrade manga Hakai

If you're so against JJK upgrades you would prefer VSBW augments its standards for EE to downgrade other verses instead then idk what to say to you, this discussion clearly isn't going anywhere and you seem stuck in your ways

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

If you're so against JJK upgrades you would prefer VSBW augments its standards for EE to downgrade other verses instead then idk what to say to you, this discussion clearly isn't going anywhere and you seem stuck in your ways

Lol I’m sorry vsbw won’t accept Hollow purple as FTL and EE buddy . You can try make the possible EE and ftl hollow purple thread though, you should give it a shot!

 

[Rosa]

Lol I’m sorry vsbw won’t accept Hollow purple as FTL and EE buddy . You can try make the possible EE and ftl hollow purple thread though, you should give it a shot!

no one even mentioned FTL :/

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

no one even mentioned FTL :/

That’s what the paper mentioned as one of the qualities of said type of matter

 

[Arkenis]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t use niche theories with little connection to series to grant abilities like this

Niche isn't really the word to be used here. Tachyons as a concept aren't small or limited in knowledge within science. What you should be asking is if we allow hypothetical science concepts and of course we do.

Purple doesn't give something mass, Purple is a ball of the hypothetical tachyons.

Something else to consider, at least when using what the paper says, "It is theorized that space is filled with a gas-like fluid of neutral tachyons that do not interact directly with conventional sub-light matter except via gravity"

Also reading that paper, Tachyons would have numerous abilities besides the potential ee, it would have time travel, gravity manipulation, radiation manipulation, invisibility, matter manipulation, and intangibility as well lmao. I don't know why EE is always argued for, that's just a hypothetical effect of tachyons interaction with matter.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Also reading that paper, Tachyons would have numerous abilities besides the potential ee, it would have time travel, gravity manipulation, radiation manipulation, invisibility, matter manipulation, and intangibility as well lmao. I don't know why EE is always argued for, that's just a hypothetical effect of tachyons interaction with matter.

Numerous abilities HP is not implied or hinted to have just like EE. One of these would be the ftl attack speed which hollow purple OBVIOUSLY doesn’t have, as we all know, hence we know it doesn’t share all these qualities with the stuff described in the paper, and hence isn’t the same like that inherently and we can forget giving it EE

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

@Rosa get Gojo's blue AP past maximum: meteor's entire yield first

Spoiler: spoiler

(Yes I know we can't @ people)