All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Eden_Warlock99]

Can't we just scale Vegeta to Goku instead of the other way around?

Kind hard to do that when Goku's value comes from Zarbon being x3 Vegeta's value

 

[Irineu]

There can only be one Hades here

And this hades is definitely me

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I think it would be easier to scale Base Vegeta to 1/10th of Oozaru Vegeta, who has the same pl as Kaioken Namek Goku iirc, who's base form is 1/6th of First Form Frieza going off of what I suggested earlier. And then go from there.

 

[MeiouHades]

And this hades is definitely me

Nah you’re the fake Hades. Only one Hades for the entire multiverse, ask Hasty or @TheUnshakableOne even though it’s a load bullshit, therefore I’m that Hades.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Unfortunately, in DT's eyes, even if the space that contains Universe is infinite or very large compared to single Universe which is finite, won't be enough for Tier 1 but rather only if it's 5D axis or 5D volume would be that large. But ofc, you won't need this much mental gymnastics or have to be a good cook if you have this specific statements. Although DT is not the sole authority is another thing.

Would time being stated to be an axis in DBH help with the 5D axis stuff considering the neutral space is already accepted as Insignificant 5D?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I think it would be easier to scale Base Vegeta to 1/10th of Oozaru Vegeta, who has the same pl as Kaioken Namek Goku iirc, who's base form is 1/6th of First Form Frieza going off of what I suggested earlier. And then go from there.

I've checked the numbers, and Zarbons multiplier makes things weird if we're trying to make Kaioken x4 Goku scale to it.

 

[MeiouHades]

Would time being stated to be an axis in DBH help with the 5D axis stuff considering the neutral space is already accepted as Insignificant 5D?

At worst, if the neutral space is insignificant 5D and the overarching timeline isn‘t either 6D or significant 5D, then wouldn’t the crack of time possibly be “insignificant 6D”? Or is that only if it contains significant 5D structures? If it is insignificant 6D, then by Ultima’s definition (which in my opinion is horrible logic but whatever) it is bigger than any significant 5D space, thus Low 1-C regardless. That’s only IF one can achieve insignificant 6D just by holding a timeline which itself contains insignificant 5D space

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Oozaru Vegeta's PL wasn't really revealed tho

 

[Dust_Collector]

I've checked the numbers, and Zarbons multiplier makes things weird if we're trying to make Kaioken x4 Goku scale to it.

Yeah that's my concern lmao, shit gets weird if we go that route.

Transformed Zarbon = 178.32 Zettatons
KKx4 Goku = 178.32 Zettatons
Base Goku = 44.58 Zettatons
KKx2 Goku = 89.16 Zettatons
Saiyan Saga Vegeta = 89.16 Zettatons
Transformed Zarbon = 267.48 Zettatons

Repeat forever for universe level saiyan saga Goku.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Oozaru Vegeta's PL wasn't really revealed tho

Doesn't Vegeta state that the Oozaru increases battle power by 10x? Or is BP treated differently from PL?

Also, are there any guides that give his Oozaru a PL rating?

If no to either, then ignore me lol.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah that's my concern lmao, shit gets weird if we go that route.

Transformed Zarbon = 178.32 Zettatons
KKx4 Goku = 178.32 Zettatons
Base Goku = 44.58 Zettatons
KKx2 Goku = 89.16 Zettatons
Saiyan Saga Vegeta = 89.16 Zettatons
Transformed Zarbon = 267.48 Zettatons

Repeat forever for universe level saiyan saga Goku.

Basically Kaioken x4 and Zarbon's multiplier just can't mix no matter what it seems, just messes things up.

 

[ChronoULT]

Vegeta's power dropped when he made the power ball, but we can scale him to a hypothetical 5x Kaioken Goku, since he said it wouldn't work

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Vegeta's power dropped when he made the power ball, but we can scale him to a hypothetical 5x Kaioken Goku, since he said it wouldn't work

So basically weakened Vegeta would be a little over 1/2 as strong as Base Goku (since his Oozaru was greater than a Kaioken x5). So basically weakened Oozaru Vegeta has a power level of above 40,000 (as that is what a Kaioken x5 PL would be). Of course this is assuming that Goku is referring to a healthy Kaioken x5 instead of his own currently exhausted and weakened Kaioken x5.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Basically Kaioken x4 and Zarbon's multiplier just can't mix no matter what it seems, just messes things up.

Seems like Monster Zarbon will have to scale higher than x4 Goku to make sense of this mixing.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Hey since Zarbon supposedly has a PL of 23k in his first form (the wiki says Daizenshuu 7 gives this number), could he downscale from Kaioken x3?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Seems like Monster Zarbon will have to scale higher than x4 Goku to make sense of this mixing.

Someone mentioned the 32,000 power level for kkx4 Goku could be for when he's using the kamehameha, so that could be a potential fix if that's what the power level is actually referring to, KKx4 Goku + Kamehameha > Monster Zarbon > KKx4 Goku

 

[ChronoULT]

Although the viz translation says that Vegeta's power level was 20,000, it says it was still rising, so maybe we can round Vegeta's value to keep it consistent

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Someone mentioned the 32,000 power level for kkx4 Goku could be for when he's using the kamehameha, so that could be a potential fix if that's what the power level is actually referring to, KKx4 Goku + Kamehameha > Monster Zarbon > KKx4 Goku

That could fix it.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Although the viz translation says that Vegeta's power level was 20,000, it says it was still rising, so maybe we can round Vegeta's value to keep it consistent

20,000 got changed to 30,000 in later editions of the chapter (Most likely because the original version didn't come off as too impressive given Vegeta had a reading of 24,000 in earlier chapters).

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Question, if we treat pl scaling as ok to use, then wouldn't we know the gap between First form Frieza and Second form Frieza?

Since Namek Goku had a PL (power level) of 90k and said while recovering he would've been of help against Second Form Frieza with Kaioken x10 (which would give him a PL of 900k), then if we use pl's for his Kaioken amps, we can tell the gap between second and first form.

Goku would have a power level slightly higher than First form Frieza with Kaioken x6 (540k compared to Frieza's 530k) which would equal to Frieza's 4.89 Quettatons, base form would be 0.815 Quettatons and Kaioken x10 would be 8.15 Quettatons (which Second form would scale higher than). So second form would be a little less than 2x stronger than first form. Yeah Goku hasn't shown Kaioken x6, but if he can use Kaioken x10, then x6 should be easy for him to use. Technically Goku with a Kaioken x11 (990k) would still be slightly weaker than second form Frieza, but I won't go there since Goku still wouldn't be able to use anything higher than x10 at this time (the possibility is still there though).

Does this seem right or nah?

Thoughts on this btw?

 

[ChronoULT]

20,000 got changed to 30,000 in later editions of the chapter (Most likely because the original version didn't come off as too impressive given Vegeta had a reading of 24,000 in earlier chapters).

was the 'still rising" statement kept or removed?

 

[Dust_Collector]

was the 'still rising" statement kept or removed?

 

[ChronoULT]

Thoughts on this btw?

we already have a 2x multiplier for 2nd form Freeza, it's on the updated ap blog, but i don't know if it's applied

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

we already have a 2x multiplier for 2nd form Freeza, it's on the updated ap blog, but i don't know if it's applied

Ooh I saw it now, oh well at least we would get the ap value for Kaioken x10 Namek Goku and more support for second form being two times first form for being stronger.

But if we combine what I suggested with the statement in the blog that Namek Goku is 10x Saiyan Saga Goku, this would make everyone from Saiyan Saga Base Goku and above High 5-A, just within different parts of the tier.

 

[ChronoULT]

Btw, does 5-B Nappa seems inconsistent? Porunga can restore Earth without any problem in the Buu Saga, which would scale to Moori since he is the the current owner of the Dragon Balls. Moori would be weaker than an average namekian warrior, which has a power level of 3,000

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Btw, does 5-B Nappa seems inconsistent? Porunga can restore Earth without any problem in the Buu Saga, which would scale to Moori since he is the the current owner of the Dragon Balls. Moori would be weaker than an average namekian warrior, which has a power level of 3,000

If this is valid then basically Saiyan Saga Piccolo and Gohan would benefit from this (since I think Piccolo has a PL above 3k and he states Gohan has a greater PL than him at Full Power) along with Nappa. With my suggestion this fits as Base Goku and above would High 5-A.

Of course this is assuming wishes can be used for Power scaling.

 

[ChronoULT]

If this is valid then basically Saiyan Saga Piccolo and Gohan would benefit from this (since I think Piccolo has a PL above 3k and he states Gohan has a greater PL than him at Full Power) along with Nappa. With my suggestion this fits as Base Goku and above would High 5-A.

Of course this is assuming wishes can be used for Power scaling.

Kami is considered as superior to Shenron since he is his creator, so i think it could work, unless it makes inconsistencies

 

[MeiouHades]

Of course this is assuming wishes can be used for Power scaling.

Normally, they can. But here, good luck getting that accepted. This is the same scenario as Shenron recreating the moon and then scaling Kami to it, that thread was a shitshow

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Kami is considered as superior to Shenron since he is his creator, so i think it could work, unless it makes inconsistencies

I think it only creates inconsistency if you take the Vegeta planet busting statement as meaning he can only be baseline 5-B (which I think is dumb cause being able to destroy Saturn for example would still make his statement valid). Basically Vegeta's statement only really acts as a limiter if you interpret it as him being only able to destroy an earth sized at max power, even though that isn't what he said, and if you combine the fact that the Frieza force consider earth to be a small planet (and remember, Vegeta was raised into the force), so in his mind earth is a small planet not a normal sized one.

Also isn't his statement just saying that he's gonna blow up the planet? Nothing about it implies a strict limit from what I can tell. And Goku reacts to it in a way that shows that he's worried for the planets safety rather than him being shocked that Vegeta can destroy a planet.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Btw, does 5-B Nappa seems inconsistent?

Yes-ish?

El Manga Legendario asserts that a Power Level of 10,000 is required to destroy planets, the Daizenshuu asserts multiple times that Vegeta had the power to destroy Earth but never afforded the luxury to his subordinates, and King Kai advises Goku to only draw energy from the Earth itself for the Spirit Bomb, out of fear of accidentally destroying the planet.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yes-ish?

El Manga Legendario asserts that a Power Level of 10,000 is required to destroy planets, the Daizenshuu asserts multiple times that Vegeta had the power to destroy Earth but never afforded the luxury to his subordinates, and King Kai advises Goku to only draw energy from the Earth itself for the Spirit Bomb, out of fear of accidentally destroying the planet.

Hmm now that is rough.

Also Null, what are your thoughts on what I brought up above (the comments regarding the namek Goku scaling)? I genuinely want your thoughts since you're a pretty knowledgeable member and you are making the new scaling blog.

 

[MeiouHades]

Yes-ish?

El Manga Legendario asserts that a Power Level of 10,000 is required to destroy planets,

Which planets? The one that’s considered small by planet brokers? Also planet level AP ≠ planet busting, you can have planet level AP and but not be able to bust the planets like DB characters do both in the manga and anime

the Daizenshuu asserts multiple times that Vegeta had the power to destroy Earth but never afforded the luxury to his subordinates

The subordinates are neither the main villain of an entire arc nor a recurring and important semi-main character, Vegeta is. You’re using the Daizenshuu hyping up the big bad as a reason to argue that only he can bust planets and no one else. If that’s really how we power scaled most of the DBS cast wouldn’t anywhere near 2-C right now. Bad logic.

and King Kai advises Goku to only draw energy from the Earth itself for the Spirit Bomb, out of fear of accidentally destroying the planet.

That’s completely irrelevant when just Kaioken X2 Goku has planet level AP, which is a level of power King Kai does allow, but doesn’t mention anything about being careful not to bust planets. If you try want to be even more pedantic, King Kai still doesn’t say anything about trying not to busting planets with Kaioken X3 or X4, he just mentions that Goku would destroy his own body, even though Kaioken X3 Goku clashes with a supposed planet busting attack?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

At worst, if the neutral space is insignificant 5D and the overarching timeline isn‘t either 6D or significant 5D, then wouldn’t the crack of time possibly be “insignificant 6D”? Or is that only if it contains significant 5D structures? If it is insignificant 6D, then by Ultima’s definition (which in my opinion is horrible logic but whatever) it is bigger than any significant 5D space, thus Low 1-C regardless. That’s only IF one can achieve insignificant 6D just by holding a timeline which itself contains insignificant 5D space

Nah. Even if it were insignificant 6-D, the coordinate plane would look something like RxRxRxRx(countable set)x(countable set), which means both of the extra dimensions aren't significant enough for tiering.

 

[MeiouHades]

Nah. Even if it were insignificant 6-D, the coordinate plane would look something like RxRxRxRx(countable set)x(countable set), which means both of the extra dimensions aren't significant enough for tiering.

An insignificant 6D space can, by Ultima’s definition, hold a significant 5D space as an extension of the fact that an insignificant 5D space can and does hold fully tiered 4D Macrocosms. So it can actually be tiered unless Ultima finds a flaw in his own logic (which is very easy to point out but)

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Akira Toriyama posted something about DBGT


Is it a remake??? This year promises

This is a blatant signal. Instagram's Official Dragon Ball page also posted this picture.

 

[ChronoULT]

That profile is not Toriyama tho, there is no way Toriyama would use a social media app

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That profile is not Toriyama tho, there is no way Toriyama would use a social media app

I know, but it's a page linked to Toei

 

[MeiouHades]

That profile is not Toriyama tho, there is no way Toriyama would use a social media app

Bro would be making retcons left and right. He’d make retcons to fix retcons that he accidentally made while he was retconning another retcon which itself was a result of his previous retcons he made 2 hours ago

 

[ChronoULT]

Yes-ish?

El Manga Legendario asserts that a Power Level of 10,000 is required to destroy planets, the Daizenshuu asserts multiple times that Vegeta had the power to destroy Earth but never afforded the luxury to his subordinates, and King Kai advises Goku to only draw energy from the Earth itself for the Spirit Bomb, out of fear of accidentally destroying the planet.

the el manga legendario statement could be referring to bigger planets since Earth is considered a small planet by the majority of characters, #19 actually says that Raditz could destroy Earth iirc but I don't remember the context

 

[ChronoULT]

Bro would be making retcons left and right. He’d make retcons to fix retcons that he accidentally made while he was retconning another retcon which itself was a result of his previous retcons he made 2 hours ago

Toriyama is the kind of guy who, out of nowhere in a response to a fan, would say something like "yeah, actually, Oozaru is not something natural to Saiyans, it's a curse given to evil Saiyans after they began to become corrupted when the Vegeta lineage began to take space in Saiyan society (laughs)"