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Yep. Without a High 1-B cosmology, it would only be able to reach High 1-B or Low 1-A at the absolute highest interpretation of the transcendence.
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Root changes and possible High 1-A upgrade
- Thread starter BasedNecoScaler69
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- #242
There's alternatives listed in that thread also.
Either
it says possible, not actually having to exist.
Tdjwo
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Nasuverse getting downgraded for the most rubbish reasons would be the fault of the higher-ups for the verse who refuse to do anything regarding the verse updates. Almost every justification would be removed for 1A to High 1A Nasuverse when it could have been easily prevented. This is how I think Nasuverse highest tiers should scale;
- The Root should remain 1A not only is it beyond dimensional theory but also beyond dualities. Something of those nature can't be bound by dimensions if we use logic.
- Those who scaled to the root would still scale to the root.
- Apophatic Theology can't be applied to the Root since it's embarrassingly contradicted by more than 1 existence or concepts reaching it.
- But Apophatic Theology can be applied to 「 」/Kara/Nothingness if the staffs quit being stubborn about it and accept it's different from the Root/Spiral.
- And that would make「 」/Kara/Nothingness a whole tier higher than 1A. Not an infinite layered 1A tier. In order words, Apophatic Theology would make it High 1A above the Root.
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The Root is 1-A. It's just not High 1-A. There's just no way for it to get there with our standards.
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Does this forever Mean the highest nasuverse can be is 1-A
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Send I need to read that that fr
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I mean I agree cause I clearly remember the thread primarily using negative theology
But anyways what are the standards for Hilbert space
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I agree but it's not an not wanting to upgrade the verse seems more like just wanting to be the primary source of upgrades the reasons they give for disagreeing are stupid as well but qawsed has a point
The roa's shit that's 1-A can still act as a primary source for high 1-A root which the root would be unreachable from that or you can wait for ultima to present some standard change proposal sometime hopefully
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I'm just, not even gonna respond to the professor stuff, not only is it really sad you went to ask a professor if you're right in a debate, his lack of knowledge on the source material definitely comes through in a few spots there where he says stuff that is blatantly incorrect (and you yourself said to ignore it if we didn't care)
Anyway, one of the major points for the "they must be seperate people" seems to be some imaginary scaling chain where 7HS>Roa>Root simply because he doesn't get erased when going through it, ignoring how this argument doesn't actually even make sense when you look at it and think for more than half a second, I came to realize something.
Despite everything everywhere saying that Roa survives Akasha, and his nickname being the serpent of Akasha, I've realized there's not actually like, a source for that. In which case the entire argument just falls apart because it's entirely predicated on this scaling chain which seemingly doesn't actually exist.
??????
The taiji isn't the root, it says right there in the scan it's a representation of the World.
Anyway, one of the major points for the "they must be seperate people" seems to be some imaginary scaling chain where 7HS>Roa>Root simply because he doesn't get erased when going through it, ignoring how this argument doesn't actually even make sense when you look at it and think for more than half a second, I came to realize something.
Despite everything everywhere saying that Roa survives Akasha, and his nickname being the serpent of Akasha, I've realized there's not actually like, a source for that. In which case the entire argument just falls apart because it's entirely predicated on this scaling chain which seemingly doesn't actually exist.
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It's used as evidence for the root's transduality, if you want to argue this doesn't apply to the root, then argue with the original 1-A crt.
also people's soul return to the root when they die.
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Yes, I know it's used as evidence for its transduality, because the root is above the Taiji that's not the same as arguing it expands because the Taiji does
Yes they do, which is probably why no one's questioned it before, funnily however, the opposite is noted for Roa, rather than dispersing and returning to the root, it's just transfered to the next body
also people's soul return to the root when they die.
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Since the root has the qualities of everything in the nasuverse ( same reason why it and void shiki are given every single ability ( which means it already has reactive evolution to begin with.), hell, her surname ryougi, is the japanese translation.
Also, yea that's weird that his nickname contrasts with how his soul transfers, but he had to do some level of root-fuckery to do that in the first place
Chasekilleen
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I remember reading the manga of Fate Zero yesterday and the English versions aren't that great in both the Fate Zero and Fate Stay Night English translation
It more rather says this:
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Hasty12345
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The root is looking more and more 1-C than 1-A
Chasekilleen
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The following scan was from Fate Stay Night Heaven's Feel (Day 15)
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/888577998293450814/1094604317186601090/image.png
When one attempts to leave this world.
According to occultism, the world outside of our knowledge, there is a power standing at the top of dimensional theory. The coordinate that is considered the origin of everything. It is the seat of the God who are said to be the beginning and end of everything, which records creates and records everything in this world.
The English version from BeastLair is very weird and unnatural. Considering Shirou in this monologue in the English version kinda misinterprets the Root itself.
Moreover this statement has been reiterated with the exact same sentence strutcure. According to Tokiomi from the Fate Zero volume one manga. Chapter 2.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/888577998293450814/1094542349335535616/040.jpg
神秘学に従えば
この世界の外側には次元の頂点にある”力”がある。
あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。
それが全ての魔術師に悲願たる「根源の渦」万物の始まりにして終焉この世の全てを記憶しこの世の全てを作れるという神の座だ。
According to occultism, the world outside of our knowledge, there is a power standing at the top of dimensional theory. The coordinate that is considered the origin of everything. The Root of Swirl is what every sorcerer wishes to attain. It is the seat of the God who are said to be the beginning and end of everything, which records creates and records everything in this world.
Hasty12345
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neither of those things are 1-A
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I thought one problem is not just the translation issues but also the fact nasu really likes to use flowery language.
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Yes, the subject has started to fall apart again, on the one hand, people who force cosmology High 1-A, on the other hand, those who want the root to be 1-C, on the other hand, different arguments, etc. If you are going to deal with downgrading, open a different thread for it. it needs to be shut down
Anyway, I guess I shouldn't have left my 9D mooncell thread right away
Hasty12345
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I'm skeptical about a lot of the current Nasuverse stuff, especially relating to cosmology and scaling, but yes, this isn't the thread for it.
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Like most nasu fans, I do not know what the theory of dimensions is, but the context actually used here, as seen from the outside, is "Infinite dimensionality of Low 1-A real numbers", instead of "Infinite dimensionality of Low 1-A real numbers"; more like transcending the dimension mechanics in the universe rather than a qualitative transcendence, so it's a rule set by this site so yes root can remain stable 1-A and I don't fully understand what chase translated above because I remember that crimson used the same expressions in mega crt and root The only 1-A supporters are not theories of dimensionality, but philosophical concepts like taiji, wuji, and archetypes, so if someone wants to downgrade cosmology from 1-A (I'm not saying this with reference to you, don't get me wrong), stronger arguments are needed, and finding these arguments is Rootun. Difficult as arguments scanned and found to make High 1-A
Tdjwo
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High 1A Nasuverse makes more sense than 1C Nasuverse
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sort of
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If we approve the site 9D mooncell, yes it will be the outer Gods 10D, but I closed that thread because someone said we should postpone it, in fact with a little more research the mooncell 9D can be done, but hey buddy this is not the place for this
John985
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It’s not Shirou who was talking here, it’s Illya.
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Shirou???? Bro is cooking nothing at all
The alternative tls given are also kinda eh? It's a slightly different (if at all) wording choice, in order to try and argue its not the same
In fact, that Zero Manga tl is really weird, you're just changing the tl of 頂点 to top for whatever reason, then the entire part after that reads really weird, "the root of swirl" for instance. And the entire "of our knowledge" part is just, added out of nowhere, like its just not in the text at all, and the way you tl'd it just doesn't work in general.
You also said the tl of Illya's statement is bad but aside from your wording on the first part (which is odd) it's saying like, the same thing with a random word choice change, I'm not sure what your goal with posting that was. To be honest it seems like an attempt to discredit the used TLs, despite your translation there ending up basically the same.
Tdjwo
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Ngl, we might have differing views on the root and its tiering but I completely agree with you about Chase's translations. I've said his translation sucked before and people thought I was being mean. His translation is even worse than the other translated one. It's like he's intentionally looking for ways to change certain words and context just to take the root to 1C
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That doesn't matter if it's still bound to the same dimensional theory that caps off at 1C
Chasekilleen
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Uhhhh what are you on about? I am genuinely confused because it seems you are only confusing yourself and I honestly doubt you have read that Japanese text and understood the meaning.
The meaning of 頂点 in Japanese is self-explanatory, it means the top or apex [insert your synonym for top] and in the Japanese script that I read from the Fate Stay Night Heaven's Feel, it never stated nor even hinted that the Root was "governing the dimensional theories", BeastLair made the Root sound flowery using weird word jargon.
In fact, the Japanese version of the quotes I sent from the manga and the visual novel respectively uses the same wording to describe the Swirl of Origin.
Just because it goes against your ideology of Swirl of Origin being 1A, that doesn't I mean I have translated it incorrectly. That sounds like an excuse.
Even @Qawsedf234 said that the Japanese sound less impressive than the fan-scanlations of Fate Zero and Beast Lair's translation of the manga and visual novel.
You know that thing called 「」that's called a talking mark, which symbolises people speaking, the statement regarding the Root in the Japanese version was absent, hence it is indicating that it is an internal monologue.
This statement from the English version is incorrect and flowery. Considering "there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world" isn't present in the Japanese script whatsoever
https://media.**********.net/attachments/707202308760535070/1094546947383242752/image0-10-1-1-2_1.png?width=797&height=600
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It's called the Apex of dimensional theory in like 3 different translations (with the raws). Even the phrase "atop" doesn't imply superiority in the sense of being inaccessibly above them, but simply being at the peak of it
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Idk...as someone who's checked the validity of them, while the overall translation might be a bit strange, I haven't seen a single translation that translates it as anything other than "apex" or some phrase referring to it as the very peak of dimensional theory. Just my 2 cents on the translation.Ngl, we might have differing views on the root and its tiering but I completely agree with you about Chase's translations. I've said his translation sucked before and people thought I was being mean. His translation is even worse than the other translated one. It's like he's intentionally looking for ways to change certain words and context just to take the root to 1C
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The biggest point is this: Nothing given for the Root other than Negative Theology comes close to a 1-A justification. High 1-A would only work if the Root is 1-A, is separated from [] and that [] is unreachable by the Root.
This scaling only works if the Root is 1-A when nothing provided supports it. It's just 1-C or High 1-C based on the Mooncell comment.
The biggest confusion can also just be dimensional theory. People adding in the word "all" make it sound significantly more impressive than it is. The OP has to prove what dimensional theory the Nasuverse is using and they haven't done so.
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It is 1C if I not mistaken since I am familiar with Nasuverse’s lore.
Also the Moon Cell comment was simply about a character obtaining a higher dimensional perspective which was BB from Fate Extra CCC. I should know since I used to have a outdated old cosmology blog back in the day.
There is also the “eight” dimensions statement, but it is left unclear if it was truly referring to 8D as nothing suggested they were higher dimensional spaces or anything at the time and even now, I remained skeptical of that.
Anyway, I only here for clarifications and isn’t voting or anything.
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It wouldn't downgrade the entire thing to 1C. Just the Swirl of the Root if we did separate it. Though, assuming 9D was agreed upon, it would be High 1C. The entire thing, assuming there were 2 keys, would still be 1A bare minimum
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Don’t think 9D was agreed upon was it?
Also, that is technically within the 1C territory according to our Tiering System.
It will have to been 10D or 11D to qualify for High 1C.
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That kind of downgrades happens a lot in upgrade threads
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Well if the dimensionality in nasuverse just 7D-8D then the root just on the top of that, neither it just 8D or 9D
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