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Important suggestions for turning the wiki more professional (Staff only)

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Maybe make it a must at least for the AP/Speed stuff only?
Like I don't mind not seeing a scan for Superman having laser eyes, but would like to know where to find his feat N°584594.
 
We could make a "Citation needed" template and add that on to sections that seem like they could easily have references supplied.

It doesn't fix the problem but it would help spread awareness and gradually result in profiles being fixed as the citation template is replaced with references.
 
I suppose that might be an idea, but I am not at all enthusiastic about us launching a project to add such a template to around 27,000 pages. The infobox project should be handled before that.

My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.

I need some help with this though.
 
I generally see quotation of references from game chapters or stages or cut scenes of a video game a parallel to calling out chapters from an issue of a comic book.
 
Not suggesting we try to add it to all pages. But if we start with a few noteworthy pages as examples, it would get the message out.

And I do think that the infoboxes take priority either way.
 
I'm fine with "far preferable" but I don't think it should be obligatory even for pages made in the future, I understand the concern that no one will do it if that's the case but I like to think that those who have the time and interest to write down references would do it anyway for the sake of a higher quality page.
 
I generally see quotation of references from game chapters or stages or cut scenes of a video game a parallel to calling out chapters from an issue of a comic book.
What do you mean?
Not suggesting we try to add it to all pages. But if we start with a few noteworthy pages as examples, it would get the message out.

And I do think that the infoboxes take priority either way.
It makes them look bad stylistically though. I much prefer the approaches that I mentioned earlier, but I still need help with this.
I'm fine with "far preferable" but I don't think it should be obligatory even for pages made in the future, I understand the concern that no one will do it if that's the case but I like to think that those who have the time and interest to write down references would do it anyway for the sake of a higher quality page.
Well, if we manage to turn references into a massive trend that encompasses virtually all of our wiki pages after a few years, we might be able to apply stricter standards than I suggested above, but not otherwise.
 
How would you put "Resistance to Fire Manipulation (Can survive fire attacks)" or "Breaking the Fourth Wall (Expressed annoyance at the lack of boss battles in the arena)" in NA/T?
The first needs no explanation. Just saying there exists a feat of surviving fire attacks adds nothing. It's like saying "has demonstrated fire resistance". A reference to a feat where the character survives fire attacks would do.
For the latter: Either make a bullet point in the Notable A/T section called "Breaking the Fourth Wall" and go into a bit more detail (e.g. "X expressed annoyance at the lack of boss battles in the area, despite there being no reason that a boss battle there would be something expected there. This indicates that the character likely has some degree of awareness of the fourth wall." would do). Or you could also show the feat in question in the feats section.
We could make a "Citation needed" template and add that on to sections that seem like they could easily have references supplied.

It doesn't fix the problem but it would help spread awareness and gradually result in profiles being fixed as the citation template is replaced with references.
Reminds me of the explanation needed template from back in the days. That never really caught on.
I think people probably don't like to make an edit to something just to say "someone else should fix this". Well, if we did it as a staff project it's a different story, but that won't happen.
Just so I'm sure I understand correctly, even for profiles made in the future, we're not gonna be deleting them if they don't have references, right? Because that's a lot to ask of normal users making their first page, for example
For page making it's definitely a little difficult. However, perhaps we could require it when CRT's are getting applied in the future? Since CRTs already need to present the source material, which the changes are based on, the reference for where stuff comes from should be available in them anyway. So it wouldn't be a lot of extra effort to add them to the page, too, at that point.
 
For page making it's definitely a little difficult. However, perhaps we could require it when CRT's are getting applied in the future? Since CRTs already need to present the source material, which the changes are based on, the reference for where stuff comes from should be available in them anyway. So it wouldn't be a lot of extra effort to add them to the page, too, at that point.
This may be a good idea.
 
I agree with DontalkDT's proposal. Seems like the easiest way to make it start.
 
My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.

I need some help with this though.
Well, I think that this seems like something good to initially focus on before we proceed with further and stricter requirements.
 
I believe something that could help a lot for users to make them add in references would be to have the page to make CRTs link in its text examples of CRTs made in an organized way & with references, so that users may imitate that or give themselves a better idea of what to do. Change some wording in the rules is needed and all but this might help as much, if not more on how they realistically come here and make threads. Otherwise we would need to give them a push in how our standards should be ourselves when they do things like always.
 
I am not sure if that is a good idea. Linking to the standards format for character profiles page and our upcoming references page in the header text for the content revisions forum would likely be more useful, but would still seem very out of place.
 
My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.

I need some help with this though.
Are any of you willing to help me with the wiki information page work described above please? I would greatly appreciate it.

After we are done, I can write a new news and announcements forum thread about them on my own.
 
I am not sure if that is a good idea. Linking to the standards format for character profiles page and our upcoming references page in the header text for the content revisions forum would likely be more useful, but would still seem very out of place.
Is the result of all this going to look like the standard character format page?
 
Are any of you willing to help me with the wiki information page work described above please? I would greatly appreciate it.

After we are done, I can write a new news and announcements forum thread about them on my own.
What help would you need done, Ant? I don't have the most professional tendency towards language but if I'm able to help I gladly will.
 
Anyway, I need suggestions for how to rewrite the standard format page, the editing rules page, and the welcome message page in appropriate manners.

We should preferably also write a specific page about our new standards for when and how to use references properly in our wiki, in order to simplify things for our members, and make them less confused. It should mention examples for comic books and manga, games, books, movies and TV shows.

We could simply call the new page "References" or somesuch.

After all of our preparations have been finished, I can start a highlighted news & announcements thread.
Thank you for the offer to help.

I basically need help with the above issues, based on our earlier discussion here in this thread.

Also, should I remove the "Optional" text from the references section of the standard format for character profiles page and the corresponding section of its header image?
 
Is the result of all this going to look like the standard character format page?
If you are referring to the new references page, I think that it should mainly feature elaborate explanations regarding how to use them properly in our wiki, as well as our associated rules/standard conventions.
 
Okay. What do the rest of you think?
 
Hello, I wanted to contribute to this discussion and asked for permission to comment.

About the topic of adding references, I agree wholeheartedly to their addition, with an addendum. The idea is not only good, but necessary, as it is more than "only" professionalism, which Ant is absolutely correct in saying that it is essential for the wiki to become more so, but also necessary in the sense of a VS-worthy page. A substantial amount of profiles go by without scans, or when they do, they are vastly out of context. While I don't quite think those are necessary for most normal games, or at least shouldn't be as strict (Many game feats depend on random chance that may happen in any point during gameplay time, most notably RPG-like games, so while I'm all for a games reference sheet, it would need to be recognized as being vaguer than usual), at least for book, manga and comic series this is exceedingly useful and needed.

My addendum would be to suggest a possible alternative to profiles if the user feels like a reference sheet would make the profile far too cluttered, which would be to make a separate blog thread for the feats. The benefits would be two-fold, as it would both diminish the clutter on profiles and potentially make it less of a hassle in categorizing big profiles, and take care of an issue I'll comment on.

There's also the topic of explaining specific P&A. The suggestion posted by DT is to explain those on the Notable Attacks & Techniques section, which I disagree with. While it would be fine to do for many characters, a lot more would become problematic as techniques like a Kamehamehadouken would start to get mingled with sections of the P&A. Rather, I'd like to use the rather unused "Feats" section of the profile. Consider this profile sandbox I'm working on for Tex Willer. I'm not done with it, far from it, and there is still quite a bit of polishing to go through. However, the way I used the Feats section can be applied for any characters to register all needed feats without cluttering the profile. A tab can be opened and closed and all sorts of feats, resistances and abilities can be explained. If even that becomes much of a hassle, the feats section can be greatly summarised, and a more in-depth analysis on the character can be made on a blog post, sandbox or something of that sense, on a similar format to some of the most well-structured reddit RTs, with better standardisation so we can reference issues and stuff.

I'd also like to mention that while I completely agree that size and length of a profile should be shortened as possible and that they are a problem when they get too big, we also need to keep in mind that profiles need to be as big as it is needed, and if they need to be big, either because the series are long, there are many relevant feats to mention on the profile alone, or because the more detailed version simply looks better, they need to be big. Trying to make profiles of certain characters small (no specific examples in mind) feels artificial. Something more important than size is readability, and while they are related, they aren't the same. I very much prefer reading a very big, but well-explained profile rather than a small one that is just a wall of text that goes on unexplained.

On the smaller stuff, personally I'm fine with tabbers and bullet points. They are very useful to organise things neatly, and makes the profile way less massive and difficult to read. I also like Ant's suggestion of becoming more consistent with punctuation. Ant's right about this being too big for it not to be gradual as well, the changes proposed here should be done over time and without pressure.

I'd like to put some suggestions of my own, but for now, I don't know how to structure them. My first one would be to design a separate section of the profile to detail the feats in-depth. I favour the Feats section for that, but any other ideas are good. I'll think of something else later.
 
I think that we should start with the changes detailed in my original post in this thread to not assume more tasks than we are able to handle. This alone will be an enormous undertaking in sum total.

Also, given that references strictly appear as a number (like this: [19]), I do not think that they would clutter the pages. However, we can mention that the focus should be on inserting referenses for the feats and the less self-evident powers and abilities.
 
From the discussion rules and related the rule from the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics, I think a change to the discussion rules should be added. Most Content Revision Threads don't have references for the source material, which could be an issue in the long run as references will be required in the future. Additionally, I think the rule 7 from Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics, the additions would be limit change being accepted from out of context scans.
  • Content Revision Threads need to be supported by scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calculations, or any other direct proof that claimed events actually happened in the source material. In the absence of this evidence, CRTs may be closed without notice.
I think this line should be added before the lasted sentence:
  • Always add the reference for the stories or source materials such as books' chapters, novel's chapters, comics' issues, series' season and episode number, game franchise's game title, etc.
Or maybe what in rule 7 of the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics can be expanded to the discussion rule. In any case, improvements are welcome. Suggestions or improvements are welcome.
 
I would also greatly appreciate further input and help here.
 
What is left to do here? I think we agreed to use references wherever possible and increase its use over time.
 
Anyway, I need suggestions for how to rewrite the standard format page, the editing rules page, and the welcome message page in appropriate manners.

We should preferably also write a specific page about our new standards for when and how to use references properly in our wiki, in order to simplify things for our members, and make them less confused. It should mention examples for comic books and manga, games, books, movies and TV shows.

We could simply call the new page "References" or somesuch.

After all of our preparations have been finished, I can start a highlighted news & announcements thread.
My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.
I basically need help with the above issues, based on our earlier discussion here in this thread.

Also, should I remove the "Optional" text from the references section of the standard format for character profiles page and the corresponding section of its header image?
I need help with structuring and applying the above changes.

Further good ideas are also welcome.
 
I suppose I could write up a References page, though I must admit I'm not the most qualified. I have limited knowledge on the coding of the site. An informational thread after the changes are made sounds like a very good idea, though perhaps it could be left as a Q&A since some users may have trouble understanding. Might cause issues with thread flooding, though, I suppose.

Yeah, remove the Optional bit, though maybe wait for the References page to be made to clear things up (like how to cite sources such as video games).
 
I have been thinking about a reference page for how to properly determine whether or not certain feats are outliers; but I'm super tied up at the moment. And I will also note there are game verses especially that might need better explanations. As I have mentioned that character archetypes and narrative genre of the verses are often primary factor. I have also mentioned narrative genre =/= gameplay genre; though most game genres often are similar to each other and have narrative genres correlative to their gameplay genres and what not.
 
Thank you Bambu. We already have the technical parts needed for the references page written here:


It needs to mention some basic rules and standards as well though.

Again, help with suggestion and organisation would be very appreciated, as I am constantly busy and distracted, and have a hard time focusing nowadays.
 
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I need suggestions for how to rewrite the standard format page
The standard format for characters already has a section dedicated to references. Just removing the "optional" tag will be enough.

the editing rules page
A straightforward suggestion would be something like:
  • Please always include the References section in character pages and information blogs to source all the important information covered in said profile or blog. To know more, read the References page.
We should preferably also write a specific page about our new standards for when and how to use references properly in our wiki, in order to simplify things for our members, and make them less confused. It should mention examples for comic books and manga, games, books, movies and TV shows.
This is a good idea. A page that explains how we should use references for each medium with examples would be nice.
 
The standard format for characters already has a section dedicated to references. Just removing the "optional" tag will be enough.
Okay. Somebody needs to edit the header image so the "Optional" part of this section is whited out there are well though.
A straightforward suggestion would be something like:
  • Please always include the References section in character pages and information blogs to source all the important information covered in said profile or blog. To know more, read the References page.
Yes. That seems fine.
This is a good idea. A page that explains how we should use references for each medium with examples would be nice.
Agreed.

Do you have any ideas for how to write this @The_Impress ?

Suggestions from other staff and experienced members would also be appreciated.
 
Honestly I think References page is overkill, and I think most people should be able to list appropriate references themselves, no? :v
 
I think that it is necessary in order to make our members aware of our new standards for when and how to use references, so I would greatly appreciate help from yourself and other staff members with developing it.
 
So what is the proposed format then?

Suggestions I can think of, are:
  • "[Series Name] Vol [Volume Number] Issue [Issue Number]" for comic books
  • "[Series Name] S[Season Number] Ep. [Episode Number]" for TV series/Webseries
  • "[Entry Name] ([Year of Release])" for games/books/movies
Anime shit, idk. Not familiar with it.
 
All of them should preferably use year of release as well, and anime and manga should use series name, episode/chapter number, and volume specifications in the cases several versions were released.

Thank you for helping out in any case.
 
Also last time @Sir_Ovens had many problems with this suggestion as it negatively affected SCP pages, so I feel he should input real quick

All of them should preferably use year of release as well
Comics, it's kinda meaningless tbh, they can go on for decades in a single volume, so
and anime and manga should use series name, episode/chapter number, and volume specifications in the cases several versions were released.
...mangas have volumes?
 
If a game has chapter/level names, then maybe those could be used? Or maybe something like "Cutscene after the second Joe boss fight", or is that too specific?
 
So what is the proposed format then?

Suggestions I can think of, are:
  • "[Series Name] Vol [Volume Number] Issue [Issue Number]" for comic books
  • "[Series Name] S[Season Number] Ep. [Episode Number]" for TV series/Webseries
  • "[Entry Name] ([Year of Release])" for games/books/movies
Anime shit, idk. Not familiar with it.
I'd suggest that the user may also add the page number or timeframe whenever applicable, depending on the piece of media. Of course, that'd be optional as it can be a hassle, but it could be good.
...mangas have volumes?
ye
 
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