Hasty12345
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I don't think this is a valid criticism, Goku's uni+ ki blasts don't accidentally blow up planets and kill everyone around them.
This is an AP vs DC situation, and the DC shouldn't be used to debunk the AP.
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Saint Seiya atomization crt.
- Thread starter Ricsi-viragosi
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This is an AP vs DC situation, and the DC shouldn't be used to debunk the AP.
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That is absolutely not what is being claimed. I will repeat again, I am not saying "small crater, no 6-C". I am saying the rubble cannot have been created by the enviroment being destroyed by a blast, because a blast that strong would not act that way and certainly would have done worse to those people.
Hasty12345
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I'm confused as to why this is still going. I thought we'd moved past this:
I already said the rubble came from the ground which was initially "debris-less". We need to come up with a way of quantifying this feat.
The rocks likely went straight up and fell to the ground or something.... i don't really know what you're trying to prove?? Should the debris had killed the observers, is that what you're arguing? The force from the explosion should have had rocks flying everywhere so fast random observers were killed?
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Before, it was attempted to argue that the debris didn't come from the crater, but because a 6-C attack is just going to send "stuff from the area flying around".
I disagreed with this by saying that a 6-C blast would do way more than that, and that in this instance the debris obviously comes from the crater.
To this, people acted like I am trying to claim 6-C is not valid due to lack of enviromental destruction. To which, I repeated that this was not what I was saying.
As I said the first time it was brought up, the amount atomized cannot be just assumed, and the panels show the debris flying far off enough that we couldn't really gauge how much of the crater was atomized. So, it is near impossible to make a proper calculation for the feat with atomization.
I disagreed with this by saying that a 6-C blast would do way more than that, and that in this instance the debris obviously comes from the crater.
To this, people acted like I am trying to claim 6-C is not valid due to lack of enviromental destruction. To which, I repeated that this was not what I was saying.
As I said the first time it was brought up, the amount atomized cannot be just assumed, and the panels show the debris flying far off enough that we couldn't really gauge how much of the crater was atomized. So, it is near impossible to make a proper calculation for the feat with atomization.
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I'd like to present my short points later today. I'm currently on vacation.
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Saint Seiya characters have their own version of "Ki Control" only that SS's version is actually a lot more advanced.
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Well it's not exactly comparable it's more that the whole basis of Saint Seiya is that they attack the atoms so the blows are focused by their nature.
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"there are more obvious problems, like obviously visible debris remaining." - Ricsi-viragosi
My Response: This is intent of the Author Vs Artwork Style (The way they chose to draw)
We are actually also told that they have to focus their Cosmo (Energy) into their attacks (6th scan) [[Multiple different links in that sentence]. For example, Shiryu's signature move requires him to "Focus all of your energy." Gemini Saga's Galaxian Explosion is all encompassing AoE attack that is purely Cosmo. The Santia Sho manga says that they need to make this energy called "Cosmo" Burst. Seiya is stated to have masterfully focuses his energy into his punch, and his kicks. Saint Seiya Omega reiterates the same thing Santia Show does. The Saints fight by exploding an energy called "Cosmo" which is also stated in the anime classic. The Lost Canvas also says this again, but with additional wording.
Additionally in the Lost Canvas anime, Libra Dohko is explaining the power of "Cosmo" (Energy) to Tenma. Libra Dohko shows us the destruction of an Atom.
"I heard the author made some rather... bad claims, such as characters being Sol even when blatantly faster and upscaling from already claimed to be Sol characters" - Ricsi-viragosi
My Response: The Gold Saints being stated to move at light speed is the base level of the 7th Sense. By burning their Cosmo ([The 7th Sense]) further they can exceed this base level.
"times when the distance between galaxies was claimed to be in the billions of kilometers, and so on" - Ricsi-viragosi
My response: Iirc, (If i remember right) this was actually a mistranslation and the words "miles," or "kilometers" isn't supposed to be there. Also, they were never stated to be galaxies either if i remember right and they looked more like Universes that were previously drawn for us by Kurumada, but that is irrelevant and derailing so i'll stop there with that. Edit: To clarify this last part. its just my opinion, and too ambiguous.
Another way to look at this is; during that Calc of Seiya's. He has not mastered his power yet. Let me give an example, During Santia Sho when Shoko first used her Cosmo (Energy). An experienced Santia/Saint stated that she only "Awoken a little of her Cosmo." Therefore, it is possible that she could not reach atomization, or she may not have atomized an entire area. The same thing could/possibly be said with Seiya whom was still in training up until his fight with Cassios in the arena where he makes another Crater. In which, we see some other Saints, in training, State that "Seiya has masterfully focused his "Chi" ([Cosmo]) into his punches, and kicks."
HOWEVER
Gold Saints are required to have full mastery of the power of "Cosmo." Otherwise they cannot achieve the 7th sense. Gold Saint should clearly be able to Sub-Atomize with all their attacks. Even other Gold Saint tier characters can destroy photons when focusing their Cosmo. Leo Aiolia Explains that, "When a Gold Saint focuses their Cosmo they can destroy even light" Also, its important to note that Aiolia's fighting style is the same as Seiya's for additional context here. The only difference is Aiolia has photon burst which is literally stated to make Photons explode, and Photon Burst Scales to Galaxian Explosion of The Gemini Saint's. (See their profiles for that) Someone such as Mephistoles Yoma can reduce someone to Quantum Particles with his Marvelous room. Then we also have been shown the cutting of Atom's.
A lot of scans heres, and im sorry about that hard pressed on time..
Gold Saints have Mastery over the Power of Cosmo
They need to focus their energy into what they are attacking with
My Response: This is intent of the Author Vs Artwork Style (The way they chose to draw)
We are actually also told that they have to focus their Cosmo (Energy) into their attacks (6th scan) [[Multiple different links in that sentence]. For example, Shiryu's signature move requires him to "Focus all of your energy." Gemini Saga's Galaxian Explosion is all encompassing AoE attack that is purely Cosmo. The Santia Sho manga says that they need to make this energy called "Cosmo" Burst. Seiya is stated to have masterfully focuses his energy into his punch, and his kicks. Saint Seiya Omega reiterates the same thing Santia Show does. The Saints fight by exploding an energy called "Cosmo" which is also stated in the anime classic. The Lost Canvas also says this again, but with additional wording.
Additionally in the Lost Canvas anime, Libra Dohko is explaining the power of "Cosmo" (Energy) to Tenma. Libra Dohko shows us the destruction of an Atom.
"I heard the author made some rather... bad claims, such as characters being Sol even when blatantly faster and upscaling from already claimed to be Sol characters" - Ricsi-viragosi
My Response: The Gold Saints being stated to move at light speed is the base level of the 7th Sense. By burning their Cosmo ([The 7th Sense]) further they can exceed this base level.
"times when the distance between galaxies was claimed to be in the billions of kilometers, and so on" - Ricsi-viragosi
My response: Iirc, (If i remember right) this was actually a mistranslation and the words "miles," or "kilometers" isn't supposed to be there. Also, they were never stated to be galaxies either if i remember right and they looked more like Universes that were previously drawn for us by Kurumada, but that is irrelevant and derailing so i'll stop there with that. Edit: To clarify this last part. its just my opinion, and too ambiguous.
Another way to look at this is; during that Calc of Seiya's. He has not mastered his power yet. Let me give an example, During Santia Sho when Shoko first used her Cosmo (Energy). An experienced Santia/Saint stated that she only "Awoken a little of her Cosmo." Therefore, it is possible that she could not reach atomization, or she may not have atomized an entire area. The same thing could/possibly be said with Seiya whom was still in training up until his fight with Cassios in the arena where he makes another Crater. In which, we see some other Saints, in training, State that "Seiya has masterfully focused his "Chi" ([Cosmo]) into his punches, and kicks."
HOWEVER
Gold Saints are required to have full mastery of the power of "Cosmo." Otherwise they cannot achieve the 7th sense. Gold Saint should clearly be able to Sub-Atomize with all their attacks. Even other Gold Saint tier characters can destroy photons when focusing their Cosmo. Leo Aiolia Explains that, "When a Gold Saint focuses their Cosmo they can destroy even light" Also, its important to note that Aiolia's fighting style is the same as Seiya's for additional context here. The only difference is Aiolia has photon burst which is literally stated to make Photons explode, and Photon Burst Scales to Galaxian Explosion of The Gemini Saint's. (See their profiles for that) Someone such as Mephistoles Yoma can reduce someone to Quantum Particles with his Marvelous room. Then we also have been shown the cutting of Atom's.
A lot of scans heres, and im sorry about that hard pressed on time..
Gold Saints have Mastery over the Power of Cosmo
They need to focus their energy into what they are attacking with
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This never happened.
The statement we got was
"Tens of Billions of Lights, Hundreds of Billions of Stretching Darkness", meaning tens of billions of galaxies and darkness between galaxies.
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I am not disputing golden saints or anything, and I am fine with just throwing the visuals out of the window.
But, you cannot make a calculation for that using pixel scaling, while ignoring the actual visuals.
So, you either cannot calculate the feat, or what seemed to be agreed on, and assume that only a part of it was atomized.
In the latter case, you need a way to find how much was atomized, which I have no idea how someone would actually do.
But, you cannot make a calculation for that using pixel scaling, while ignoring the actual visuals.
So, you either cannot calculate the feat, or what seemed to be agreed on, and assume that only a part of it was atomized.
In the latter case, you need a way to find how much was atomized, which I have no idea how someone would actually do.
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Even using something like 1% would still get big results and I think that's fair.
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- #52
I'm fine with that, sure.
Though, for the Calc, if that subatomization count is reliable, it should be added to the calculations page.
Though, for the Calc, if that subatomization count is reliable, it should be added to the calculations page.
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I brought up Gold Saints because there is a Calc for Gemini Saga's Galaxian explosion that is currently rejected because "Saints cannot atomize everything." All Saints were getting lumped in together.
EDIT: Lower tier Silver saints would need re-adjusted. They currently scale 100x above Seiya's calc.
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This part that i bolded is technically calc'able.This page specifically:
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As for an English Translation:
"The first problem that arose during the project was to select which material would be used to create the Cloths. Even with the understanding that the Cloths were a kind of armor designed to protect the bodies of the Saints, there lacked a material capable of withstanding the attacks of these warriors, whose immense destructive power resided in the destruction of the atoms. But as all matter is made of atoms themselves, such a material could not exist. With the exception of one thing: They had to study a real Cloth.
Dr. Asamori then began working on the Research Center to study the Sagittarius Gold Cloth which Mitsumasa Kido had brought back from Greece. In other words, he attempted to create an imitation of the Gold Cloth. He pushes his research studies to the molecular level, then to the atomic level, until he reached the study of the elementary particles and even that of quarks themselves, but he could not understand why the Cloths had this mysterious capability to endure this incredible power of atomic destruction (Which would then suggest the existence of something on a level deeper than that of quarks). After realizing that he could never replicate a true Gold Cloth, Dr. Asamori decided to redirect his research towards a different approach. And that would be to create Mechanical Cloths which focused the power of all modern scientific knowledge.
The attacks of the Saints were capable of destroying their target on an atomic level, therefore there was nothing to worry about in the first place even if they never reached the opponent. Dr. Asamori then started with the theoretical concept that the Cloths were capable of distorting space and immediately began his experiments. And in that age, the only known thing capable of distorting space itself was the force exerted by the gravitational wave of a Black Hole. But to create an artificial Black Hole and incorporate it into the Cloths' framework was far too much work for just one man. And so Dr. Asamori left it to the Graad Foundation to establish collaborations with NASA, the Pentagon and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
Theoretical knowledge regarding the creation of an Artificial Black Hole was something that was known since Einstein's time. It would be necessary to place 20 atomic bombs on an asteroid 10 kilometers in length and have them all detonate simultaneously so that the potency of their explosion would compress the asteroid's whole body. When compressed to a size smaller than that of an atom, it would be transformed into a micro-Black Hole. Dr. Asamori then thought it would be best to confine it within a Magnetic Field. And after countless failed attempts he was finally able to create and contain three Black Holes. Equipped with these micro-Black Holes, the Steel Cloths acquired a perfect defensive capability and a nearly unlimited energy source."
Saints' power to destroy atoms being something completely absurd and beyond human technology is not inconsistent with the actual intentions of the series.
Wouldn't you need to a calc it as a black hole feat? For example, find out the energy needed to create a Black hole that is smaller than an atom in the SS-verse. Divide that energy by 20, and that would give us the yield of a single nuke in the saint seiya verse. Would that work for getting a tier and setting it up for the scaling?
Edit: im pretty sure doing it this way would yield Tier 7 to lower tier 5 somewhere in that range
What's your opinion on this idea?
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Using this scan. It takes 20 Nuke's to create a black hole that is smaller than an atom. Since the nukes are creating a Black Hole we can use a black hole formula to calculate the energy required to make it. From the Golden Age novel we know that Saints are > Any weapon on Earth which should include Nuclear weapons. So, what the goal is with this Calc idea is to find the energy yield in joules how much power a single Nuke has in Saint Seiya, as the Saints should scale above the Nukes in the verse.
Size of an Atom = 0.0000001 or 10e-8 centimeters
Size of an Electron = 0.0000000002 or 2e-10 Centimeters
Size of a Proton, and Neutrons = 0.00000000000001 or 10e-15 Centimeters
Size of Quarks = 0.000000000000000010 or 1.0e-17 cm
Why use these sizes? Using this scan again this is what is stated;
Links to sources used is below:
journals.aps.org
en.wikipedia.org
using Omnicalculator we can just input the radius to get the mass. It will solve that problem for us.
We know the radius, and the mass now for each end.
So, I shall use the equation below to find the energy in joules (Using the Method I see most people use)
E = Mass * GBE of the sun
High End - using the size of an Atom for the Black Hole
0.000000000000339*5.693e+41= 1.929927e+29 (Tier 5-C Moon Level)
divide that by 20 to get the yield of a single nuke = 9.649635e+27 (Tier High 6-A Multi-Continent)
Middle End - using the size of an Electron for the Black Hole
0.000000000000001*5.693e+41= 5.693e+26 (Tier High 6-A Multi-Continent)
Divide by 20 = 2.8465e+25 (Tier High 6-A Multi-Continent)
Low End - using the size of a Protons and Neutrons for the Black Hole
0.0000000000000000000338534307278583*5.693e+41 = 1.9272758e+22 (Tier Low 6-B Small Country Level)
Divied by 20 = 9.6363791e+20 (tier High 6-C Large Island level)
Extreme Low end - using the size of Quarks for the Black Hole
0.0000000000000000000000338534304855*5.693e+41 = 1.9272758e+19 (Tier 6-C Island level)
Divide by 20 = 9.636379e+17 (Tier 7-A Mountain level)
Disclaimer: (maybe disclaimer is the wrong word to use lol?) I suck at math so it is very possible something could be wrong here. I will put this into a blog and get it looked at, and checked out soon.
Source - Saint Seiya Golden Age light novel
Size of an Atom = 0.0000001 or 10e-8 centimeters
Size of an Electron = 0.0000000002 or 2e-10 Centimeters
Size of a Proton, and Neutrons = 0.00000000000001 or 10e-15 Centimeters
Size of Quarks = 0.000000000000000010 or 1.0e-17 cm
Why use these sizes? Using this scan again this is what is stated;
Links to sources used is below:
The Size and Shape of the Electron
Synopsis.---Attention is called to two outstanding differences between experiment and the theory of scattering of high frequency radiation based upon the hypothesis of a sensibly point charge electron. In the first place, according to this theory the mass scattering coefficient should never fall...
journals.aps.org
Quark - Wikipedia
using Omnicalculator we can just input the radius to get the mass. It will solve that problem for us.
We know the radius, and the mass now for each end.
So, I shall use the equation below to find the energy in joules (Using the Method I see most people use)
E = Mass * GBE of the sun
High End - using the size of an Atom for the Black Hole
0.000000000000339*5.693e+41= 1.929927e+29 (Tier 5-C Moon Level)
divide that by 20 to get the yield of a single nuke = 9.649635e+27 (Tier High 6-A Multi-Continent)
Middle End - using the size of an Electron for the Black Hole
0.000000000000001*5.693e+41= 5.693e+26 (Tier High 6-A Multi-Continent)
Divide by 20 = 2.8465e+25 (Tier High 6-A Multi-Continent)
Low End - using the size of a Protons and Neutrons for the Black Hole
0.0000000000000000000338534307278583*5.693e+41 = 1.9272758e+22 (Tier Low 6-B Small Country Level)
Divied by 20 = 9.6363791e+20 (tier High 6-C Large Island level)
Extreme Low end - using the size of Quarks for the Black Hole
0.0000000000000000000000338534304855*5.693e+41 = 1.9272758e+19 (Tier 6-C Island level)
Divide by 20 = 9.636379e+17 (Tier 7-A Mountain level)
Disclaimer: (maybe disclaimer is the wrong word to use lol?) I suck at math so it is very possible something could be wrong here. I will put this into a blog and get it looked at, and checked out soon.
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Seems like super iffy calculation methods, but okay.
They really should be moved to blog post and evaluated by calc group members first though.
They really should be moved to blog post and evaluated by calc group members first though.
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I think the calc is super iffy I only used the 20 nukes thing as supplementary evidence since it's from a Magazine about the Toei Anime specifically.
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In what way is it super iffy?
I plan on putting it into a blog, and getting someone to look at it. I am just having troubles finding time too.
It should still be possible to Cross-Canon scale the Toei adapations shouldn't it? The idea is try and understand cloths, and the power of the saints better.
I plan on putting it into a blog, and getting someone to look at it. I am just having troubles finding time too.
It should still be possible to Cross-Canon scale the Toei adapations shouldn't it? The idea is try and understand cloths, and the power of the saints better.
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Oh it should be valid for Toei yeah.
Ideally Omega / Toei Seiya should be a different key or profile. In general Saint Seiya needs work on VBW and recently I got more into the series again.
Ideally Omega / Toei Seiya should be a different key or profile. In general Saint Seiya needs work on VBW and recently I got more into the series again.
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well something else that could be calc'ed is Misty shaking the Mount Fuiji island chain. which caused an eruption, and caves to collapse. Seiya scales 100x below misty until after the scene of marins fake betrayal. (if i am remembering the scene sequence right)
did he only shake mount Fuiji or the whole Fuiji island chain? I remember seiya saying it was the whole island chain.
Edit: to clarify im not siding with the removal of atomization or sub-atomization.
